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Esoteric [Ego-Death Subthread] How to achieve it

malakaix said:
I'm at this point with psychedelics temporarily.

My last trip which just so happened to be the most intense ego death i've ever endured has me on a temporary hiatus from psychedelics (which i know wont last longer then a month lol :)). I watched my entire 'awareness' of my physical body and mind become de-programmed, i could slowly feel my body loosing 'feeling'.. that awareness of blood running through your veins.. which eventually moved up towards my head.. it was so intense i was able to see frames of 'memory' shred away from my ego, as different sections of my brain were deprogrammed piece by piece until i eventually reached the source 'my ego'. It was interesting to have separate sections of your brain re-programmed from 'the beginning' and been able to focus on the information been processed.. i saw some truth that was beyond what i thought it to be.

I got a lot of answers about myself and human existence that night.. enough that i don't really have any more questions at the moment.

It use to just be a mental deconstruction.. but never had i witnessed my entire awareness of my physical body fade away to nothing. It wasn't bad, it was incredibly insightful.. but the environment in which i experienced it in could of been better.

=D
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Hah sounds straight out of 2001 "Im afraid Dave...Immmm AAA-Fraiiiid"

Every trip ive had I feel more myself than ever, when I was young it used to even swell my ego a bit. I find Ketamine/ Dissociatives have this bizzare effect of making me feel like im not me, not only not me but no one, like just a human body that I barely feel a part of.
 
daysonatrain said:
^the ego is what seperates you from awareness (observer). but yeah, no matter how much of a drug i take (or what kind, shrooms, dmt, lsd, salvia) there is still an observer there, even if it is not "me" in the egoic sense.

i think meditation is the only thing that can truly "kill" your ego (more like when meditation becomes your normal reality), psychs can make it go away for a bit, but it always comes back.
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This has been my experience. Even during my most intense out of body/one with the universe experiences (usually on salvia) there is still some thread of awareness. I don't see how you could remember a complete ego-death. How could you remember even the vaguest summation of your observations during the experience if there were no traces of your "observer" left? Just a thought.
 
medical_meccanica said:
^^^^ Malakaix's trip sounds extremely appealing to me. Did you write a report?
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Hey man, nah i didn't write a report on this particular trip. As intense and vivid as it was.. i couldn't explain in detail what occurred in a way that i'd be satisfied with how i envisioned it to be. I'm also terrible trip reporter ;)

It was particularly interesting because.. usually when i have ego-death on LSD.. my thoughts go to fast in order for me to properly process them and make a detailed understanding. I can still process the jist of it, whats happening.. but some aspects of it happen faster then i can consciously process it.

Whereas the ego-death i described was brought on by 1 bowl of marijuana.. i had been tripping every weekend for the past 6 weeks prior to this, so the chances of this occurring was rather high i suppose. But i think because i experienced it via marijuana.. i was able to assess what was going on alot more, this allowed me to see how different area's of my body's awareness was shutting down bit by bit. It was like it was un-doing sense of memory.. not at once, but from Alpha to Omega.. the last thing my memory stored to the first thing my memory stored. It de-programmed my brain in sections too, which i was able to focus on.. sensory area, frontal lobe, motor area etc.

So you can kind of imagine where my mind was at during this time lol. I had been reading alot of biology and psychology prior to this trip, and read alot about how the brain works and such.. so i dont know whether this had an effect on how perceived my experience.. but i guess knowing how different area's work i was also able to see how they don't work too ;) (deprogrammed/shutdown)

Anyway, i think you'll gain alot of insight and knowledge from ego-death when you experience it. It's been somewhat life-changing for myself.. it's changed how i view myself, how i view others and the universe as a whole.
 
you can achieve ego death without even taking a drug. people have been doing it for thousands of years and there's even a religion based on it. it's called meditation, drugs are just a shortcut to this goal.



when you use drugs with meditation ego death is very achievable.
 
^^^ It really sounds like something I'd love to go through, thanks Malakaix! I'm very into those ideas too, it's what I'm studying at the moment. Although I went into psych for the dynamic Freudian stuff, I'm finding the biology behind it all infinitely fascinating.

I've been smoking weed long enough for the experience to seem (while extremely enjoyable!) kind of dulled, so I was very surprised to think that one could potentially lose their ego during a smoking session, especially because when I smoke now my ego sometimes seems inflated and I find myself hung up on things I usually wouldn't be. I guess as you said the frequent LSD use probably had a lot to do with it.

Sounds like mindframe is probably the most important thing. I can't wait to trip again!
 
Meditation isn't a religion, its a practice or activity.

I think the defining feature of ego-dissolution is the fact that yes, the human in question mind is still observing, but there is no Self anymore; or, to be more accurate, the illusion of self, the illusion that we are actually self-contained beings vanishes, and whats left is pure energy/information/conciousness/awareness. Awareness that is aware of its awareness at that! I mean, you can still maybe remember you have a name and whatnot, but it means as much as identifying a certain spider as "Tarantula"- ie. the symbols are gone, and only what is true remains. I don't feel that fear is a component in this- but fear can certainly proceede the experience, as we so closely identify with our inner "self" and to realise its merely a product of our biology and can dissolve and IS dissolving is frightenting. Thus, simple acceptance is essential....Fighting never works....
 
^ probably the most convincing argument for "ego death" in this thread
 
Changed said:
every time I do Salvia, everything turns into energy. Although I am also just an observant piece of energy, I'm still observing. I'm not a person, or myself, but I'm still observing- otherwise, how would I be able to write up a trip report?
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Just the word 'observer' alone implies a distinction of what is seen and what is seeing it.
As is conveyed (or attempted to) before, ego-death or enlightenment means total removal of distinction and realization of unity, everything melding together into pure indifferentiation.

Ultimately there is only ONE thing left, it defies all naming, intellectualisations and analysis - Buddhists call this the true Buddha-nature that is the source of everything also "living" "inside" of us, nothing is there but boundless potential. There is no point whatsoever in dissecting it, even as I'm trying to explain this, because this this whatever it is has no property, no identity. It is a place where ratio can not come, it drives people loopy who can't handle this experience that is somehow part of reality and it is also the center of mysticism and the source of religion. Many call it God, but I think at least 99% of the time some characteristic is imposed upon this mystic thing - thinking we can know something about it, even interpreting it as another person who is omnipotent. If you confuse this omnipotent person-idea with the experience that it lives inside you (there is no inside or outside actually) you get the crazies screaming they are god. While if you must... I'd rather say all is (rendering it meaningless in a way).

It is such-ness :)
Everything people believe to exist besides that is an interaction of their personality-structure or ego with this suchness creating the illusory though consistent reality.

Please note there are apparently certain intermediate states of being that resemble complete ego-death but are in fact stationary near-enlightenment states. Sometimes people say there are a finite number of these states but personally I think it is dependant on the gradual deconstruction of your psychological mechanisms and therefore infinite. I don't know, sometimes there is just an overwhelming sense of there not being a further beyond, for that there has to be not a destruction of duality but a perfect unity of the two. By means of that unity 'further' and 'not-further' are like the sides of the same coin and not a concept survives that unity.

But it's also just a matter of how you see things, I do not pretend to know anything - this is what I believe and have gathered from experience that is exactly alike these theories that have been around for millenia.
In Zen it is teached that you CAN'T know and DON'T. There is this unnameable to believe in and the rest is doubt and contemplative experience. Admitting this ultimate defeat is the wisest thing I think you can do, although don't turn it into passivity.

Much love and if it is what you feel you need to do... godspeed on your travels to the beyond!
 
Haha in my rant about what it supposedly 'is', i forgot about the threads titlequestion...
That right Jamshyd, it's like when you're trying to sleep the trying makes you too busy to actually be able to sleep.
With ego-death there are at least 2 ways: one is by not wanting anything, and with want I mean even attempt to react on a though or whatever, you need to totally let be, in order to change you need to be open to dynamism instead of trying to use your own static type of change.

The other way is when your mind is SO haunted by a non-sensical detached way of perceiving reality i.e. endless thought loops and complete mind-fuck destroying everything you ever thought you knew.
This is what happened on my second mushroom trip that was also dosed way too high. At one point I couldn't take it anymore, then for an instance I was -just- lucid enough to see how to go lay on my bed and then I just decided to give up.
Actually way #1 is the same as #2, only with the former it feels contraintuitive to retreat from interacting with everything inside and around you, in the latter case there is no effort only accepting the fact that giving in could mean anything, it could mean you experience your death etc. If you get so extremely terrorized you are willing to accept anything to make it stop there is in one instant a shift and your mind resolves it by quitting. That's why it's a form of (near-)death experience. I think it's a more complete near-death experience than when you are nearly killed and you see your life flash by or something. That is a close call while pure ego-death is pretty good simulation of the moment of actual death at least how you psychologically perceive it.

It's funny because in Zen sudden enlightenment is also described as an instant flash exactly at the darkest point in the 'night' in which the mind wanders. Like a thunder striking.
 
I generally think of this when I get a long-winded response relating to Buddhism:

"If, Mahamati, you say that because of the reality of words the objects are, this talk lacks in sense. Words are not known in all the Buddha-lands; words, Mahamati, are an artificial creation..."

=D
 
Jamshyd said:
Step 1: Forget about "achieving" it.

It's one of those things you find as soon as you stop looking for it.

Ketamine helps a little, too ;)
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Heh. Yeah, it gets you from behind, when you least expect it, for sure.

Although I've never taken IM ket, which I imagine could very much be able to disconnect the mind from the ego, even high doses of ketamine sort of put me more into my ego, just in a trippy sort of way. A good friend of mine was calling the sort of ket-induced look at me I'm creating the universe psychosis "psychedelic megalomania".
 
The closest I've ever come to an actual ego death is my first salvia experience. I was literally blasted out of my body and dissolved for about 15 minutes before having any inkling of what I was experiencing. I'm not sure if this was an actual ego death or not, the experience was so overwhelming that I don't really have a clear memory of it.
 
burn2shine said:
you can achieve ego death without even taking a drug. people have been doing it for thousands of years and there's even a religion based on it. it's called meditation, drugs are just a shortcut to this goal.



when you use drugs with meditation ego death is very achievable.
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Yeah! But I do agree with swilow that it isn't a religion but a practice. It's part of lots of religions, yes, but not a religion in and of itself.

Not even the best shortcut, because they don't really do anything for a person's ability to willfully take apart their ego outside of a drug experience.

It's something that takes many years and is never fully accomplished, but so is life, so what the hell?

I'm all about the slow and steady, Rome wasn't built in a day (insert more cheesy cliches) approach. there are no real shortcuts to anything, the only way around is straight through.
 
Extremely insightful Solipsys, I really enjoyed your posts.

Although I don't think I can ever just 'forget' about experiencing it, especially when I'm all excited on the LSD rise, I do think that it will not happen the way I'm imagining it.

I feel like I can really handle my LSD and be comfortable with whatever it throws at me, which is a good start, I think. My next trip will be with a friend, which I'm extremely excited about. But very soon I think I'd really like to have a trip on my own. I'll keep the tv and music to an extreme minimum, keep the lights low and just be with myself to see what comes out. I'll also make sure to have some recording devices nearby, especially my computer, so that when I fall down from the peak I can write about my experience if I feel like it.

Not sure if this will get me to the 'beyond' that I'm asking about, but either way it will definitely be a worthwhile experience. :)
 
The last trip I had,

Smoked some weed, ate Eighth of Mushrooms and an hour later I took a few hits of Salvia...

As soon as I hit the Salvia, I experienced the most intense and fearful feeling I have ever experience in my life. The scariest "ego-death" experience I ever had.
 
I've never had "ego death" (going by F&B's definition) with LSD. I've had it with salvia but the experience is so short lived and chaotic that it's hard to really get anything from it. The only time I've ever had this happen was when I took about 30 grams of FRESH mushrooms and smoked marijuana after having not smoked for a very very long time.

I could not tell the difference between me and my brother.

Along with this experience came some more embarrassing aspects such as not being able to tell if I had defecated in my pants.
 
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