EADD Heroin thread v.XXV -- a quarter centuary of threads if not yet a full decade since the 'drought'...

[Zopiclone bandit]

Seems a very interesting read imo.

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812241169/supervert-20

 

[fairnymph]

Getting stuff from Canada now via DNM. It’s strong, doesn’t seem cut with anything active (almost pure white #3, everything dissolves but smell/taste nasally is unusually chemical & one person in reviews says it tests positive for xylazine) - though it doesn’t seem to last as long as I recall - but 2x longer than anything available here. I’ve tried 3 different vendors from Canada but only 1 came through, and he’s come through every time since, in ever increasing amounts. Very reliable, & way better than anything available here - saves me money too because it’s 2x the price of the best stuff I can get here but at least 10x stronger & without all the nasty zene side effects. I finally got my order from SE Asia and that stuff is maybe even better, but it took just over 3mo to arrive which is ridiculous. Methadone is pretty much interchangeable for me bc I don’t use for fun - seems like it actually lasts as long or longer too? And I found a guy selling powder that’s cheaper than h too, even adjusted for dose.

 

[4DQSAR]

Methadone is pretty much interchangeable for me bc I don’t use for fun - seems like it actually lasts as long or longer too? And I found a guy selling powder that’s cheaper than h too, even adjusted for dose.

There is a whole black market in methadone in many of the former Soviet nations. People who want to stop but can't get any help.

It's worth remembering that while methadone isn't that potent, it'a long duration will tend to produce dependence. It IS dirt cheap on the legitimate market. I mean $350/Kg cheap.

 

[fairnymph]

There is a whole black market in methadone in many of the former Soviet nations. People who want to stop but can't get any help.

It's worth remembering that while methadone isn't that potent, it'a long duration will tend to produce dependence. It IS dirt cheap on the legitimate market. I mean $350/Kg cheap.

I’m already physically dependent bc of chronic pain, but I don’t find methadone any more difficult to withdraw from than h. This is the first time I’ve found pure powder methadone and initially it was under $10/g, but now it’s gone up 6x in price and I was sent only 3/5ths of what I ordered. But, it’s domestic, which is nice to have in case something happens to my Canadian supplier. The pills are a lot more expensive.

Several years ago there was some guy selling tiny 5mg pills pretty cheaply. I wish he were still around because not only was the price good but it was much preferable to dose that way than having to make a solution for volumetric dosing, since methadone tastes so bitter. Or having to bite off part of a 40mg pill, because obviously the bigger the pill the cheaper it is to buy.

I’ve encountered plenty of people on methadone in Germany, but never people selling it on the street. I guess nearly everyone wants/needs all they get, or maybe they can’t take it home?

 

[4DQSAR]

For pain, I think methadone is better in many ways. But unless you get the German levomethadone, the stuff is cardiotoxic. A friend was given methadone for pain and suffered a hear attack!!!

 

[fairnymph]

For pain, I think methadone is better in many ways. But unless you get the German levomethadone, the stuff is cardiotoxic. A friend was given methadone for pain and suffered a hear attack!!!

Yeah, I am concerned about the toxicity, which is why I prefer h. I’m very suspicious of the non-morphine based synthetics. Especially since I normally react quite badly to them and if you read earlier in this thread, it seems like I had a weird reaction to methadone when I was on it for a week at one point. Plus methadone takes a while to kick in which is not nearly as convenient as nasal h. But, who knows how toxic the nitazenes are that are in all the European h - I’d definitely rather take methadone then a zene infused concoction. My only other option here is to take oxycodone, which is expensive, short acting and not as effective for pain. Hopefully this Canadian guy doesn’t go anywhere.

 

[4DQSAR]

Well, methadone accumulates. I ALMOST asked my pain consultant to swap me but then I discovered that there had been three shortages of the pills in the last five years. Now you may say 'well, they hand people that liquid methadone so you could just swap' but guess what? The pills can only be prescribed for pain, the liquid only for dependence.

But I've read that once the dose of methadone is titrated (also a scary idea - how long does THAT take?), you only need to take it 2 or 3 times a day. It's all about keeping a steady plasma level.

Methadone DOES cause a lot of side-effects so you really have to have a specialist set you up and keep checking on you.

I know what it's like to be in pain all the time. It's damned depressing so I DO know how it feels. I hope it works out for you.

 

[fairnymph]

Well, methadone accumulates. I ALMOST asked my pain consultant to swap me but then I discovered that there had been three shortages of the pills in the last five years. Now you may say 'well, they hand people that liquid methadone so you could just swap' but guess what? The pills can only be prescribed for pain, the liquid only for dependence.

But I've read that once the dose of methadone is titrated (also a scary idea - how long does THAT take?), you only need to take it 2 or 3 times a day. It's all about keeping a steady plasma level.

Methadone DOES cause a lot of side-effects so you really have to have a specialist set you up and keep checking on you.

I know what it's like to be in pain all the time. It's damned depressing so I DO know how it feels. I hope it works out for you.

Yes, I know, another reason to avoid it. But that accumulation can be a benefit ime, especially when you want to lower your dose/go through withdrawal. I find I can taper down on methadone much more quickly than I can on h.

I wonder if shortages is why there’s so few people selling pills on the DNM.

The times I’ve used it, I’ve taken it about 3x a day, exactly for that reason - to keep a steady plasma level, 10-25mg total daily. And I’ve only ever used it for most a week at a time, less than a handful of times, and I don’t intend to use it more unless I have issues getting proper h again, or maybe once a year if I need to get my tolerance down fast. Plus I’m a health nut & essentially always in detox mode. So, I’m not TOO worried. But the weird thigh pain was the only side-effect I ever noticed (beyond the typical side effects that I get from all opiates) and it was only the first week that I used it. Maybe I just haven’t been on high enough a dose, or for long enough, to experience more side-effects, or it could just be my body which responds weirdly to many things.

Shame I can almost never find hydromorphone on the DNM here & when I can it’s outrageously expensive - that is definitely my second choice after h. Even hydrocodone would be better than oxycodone, but that isn’t even a thing here.

And thanks, it IS damn depressing, especially if I have to worry about purity & supply. H should never have been banned. It’s an ideal painkiller, especially for chronic pain. I’ve been on it for 13yrs now, using less than I was initially, so supply issues are my only concern, other than my pain getting worse - but it really does seem like I am learning to live with and manage my pain better with time, thank the gods.

 

[4DQSAR]

Oh, if 25mg/day works for you, that's a good sign. I had imagined you needing more since you use other stuff.

I figure if people want to stop using opioids, methadone is possibly quite a good route if used for a week or two. But it's the way so many people are 'parked' on the stuff.

I think only a small number of pills are produced. It's quite possible that the very same pills used here in the UK made by the same people who supply Canada,

Oddly, in the UK we do use diamorphine (heroin) medically - but most doctors have switched to morphine. We have hydromorphone but I've never seen it. The thing about oxycodone is it's high oral bioavailability. You actually get less relief if you take it any other way. You may wonder why. Well, it's because if you eat a pill it's absobed through the gut wall and goes straight to the liver where about 10% of it is converted to oxymorphone. Other routes don't do that,

I guess I've been on pain pills for about the same amount of time. I'm truly shocked you aren't just prescribed some because NOBODY but NOBODY would or could fake pain for 13 whole years!

On the plus side - it HAS been noted that if you take an opioid to treat pain, you don't usually become addicted (psychologically dependent) so while you get the physical, your brain isn't constantly telling you to 'get high!'.

It's always good to talk. I would rather you not be in pain of course, but I feel like at least 1 person knows what it's like...

 

[Nightraver]

Just wanted to ask a question if anyone has any input
I regularly rail my oxy and when I have the brown stuff I always use the same ROA but I was wondering if I should do anything differently when railing brown than i do with the oxy as I’m worried about wasting any and don’t like smoking it and Have a very healthy fear of needles so won’t ever be going down that or the boofing route
Peace ands thanks for any input
Nightraver

 

[4DQSAR]

Just wanted to ask a question if anyone has any input
I regularly rail my oxy and when I have the brown stuff I always use the same ROA but I was wondering if I should do anything differently when railing brown than i do with the oxy as I’m worried about wasting any and don’t like smoking it and Have a very healthy fear of needles so won’t ever be going down that or the boofing route
Peace ands thanks for any input
Nightraver

While parentheral routes generally deliver oxycodone to the brain much faster than any oral formulation, it's actually MORE potent if consumed orally. The reason is that first-pass metabolism of the drug by the liver converts ≈10% of the dose into oxymorphone which as you may know, is around ten times more potent than oxycodone. Put simply, around 50% of the potency of oxyxodone is ACTUALLY due to it's active metabolite, oxymorphone.

Taken on an empty stomach, IR formulations of oxycodone have a faster onset of action than nearly evey other opioid and the duration is much longer. If you can hold on for an hour, you get more from a given amount of the drug when compated to snoorting the stuff.

I could go into the dull technical details if you wish, but I've mentioned this to a few people who snorted the pills and they concluded that the peak effect was stronger and much longer lived. They weren't sure, but they all gave up on snorting the stuff and instead crunched up the pill(s) and washed them down with a cup of tea.

For what it's worth, I've noted that when consumed orally, oxycodone produces more 'warmth' and is sedating whereas parentheral consumtion is sort of stimulating. I'm not a stimulant user and found the effects unpleasent.

If you haven't already, I do recommend you at least give it a try. I can promise it will not be less potent so you won't waste anything.

 

[fairnymph]

Oh, if 25mg/day works for you, that's a good sign. I had imagined you needing more since you use other stuff.

I figure if people want to stop using opioids, methadone is possibly quite a good route if used for a week or two. But it's the way so many people are 'parked' on the stuff.

I think only a small number of pills are produced. It's quite possible that the very same pills used here in the UK made by the same people who supply Canada,

Oddly, in the UK we do use diamorphine (heroin) medically - but most doctors have switched to morphine. We have hydromorphone but I've never seen it. The thing about oxycodone is it's high oral bioavailability. You actually get less relief if you take it any other way. You may wonder why. Well, it's because if you eat a pill it's absobed through the gut wall and goes straight to the liver where about 10% of it is converted to oxymorphone. Other routes don't do that,

I guess I've been on pain pills for about the same amount of time. I'm truly shocked you aren't just prescribed some because NOBODY but NOBODY would or could fake pain for 13 whole years!

On the plus side - it HAS been noted that if you take an opioid to treat pain, you don't usually become addicted (psychologically dependent) so while you get the physical, your brain isn't constantly telling you to 'get high!'.

It's always good to talk. I would rather you not be in pain of course, but I feel like at least 1 person knows what it's like...

Oh, I very rarely combine drugs - except ofc for my diazepam. Certainly I don’t combine opiates, except in emergency scenarios.

The tiny 5 mg pills that I found seemed like they were likely pressed pills but that doesn’t bother me provided they’re good quality. But in terms of the tablets on the market, it does seem like they’re all identical over here. In the US I had only ever seen liquid methadone, just once.

I’m aware that it’s used medically in the UK. It also is in Italy! But it’s not used for chronic pain patients, which is a real shame. Meanwhile, if you’re a hard-core heroin addict who has tried every other type of maintenance opioid therapy, you can get free lab grade heroin in Switzerland. (No offense meant to hard-core addicts; I think you have the right to put whatever you want in your bodies and I think all drugs except the hormonal birth control should be legal. I’m just mad at how badly shafted pain patients are by the actions of some users).

It’s always amusing how many people snort drugs that are best taken orally. Personally, I prefer to take all my drugs orally if it all possible.

I have of course been prescribed proper pain meds (by 2 drs), but it’s just so difficult to find such doctors. Especially since moving to ever more rural areas. Another problem over here is that I can only get a one month supply at a time, and driving is very painful for me. It’s also more expensive (despite paying €650/mo, I’m legally required to have health insurance, & no cheaper private insurance would take me: long story!) , and just such a hassle overall. Getting meds in the mail several times a year just makes more sense. Plus, I prefer the ability to exactly titrate my dose with nasal H which I don’t have with oral hydromorphone.

I really do think that I am immune to psychological addiction - my brain chemistry is definitely atypical - but the fact that I don’t even like downers certainly helps. Fundamentally though I just really love natural highs/sobriety. I most enjoy trying drugs (but most drugs don’t need to be tried more than once and there’s not that many drugs worth using) and I find the experiences are very insightful when it comes to understanding both how drugs work and how the/my mind works. The only other benefit imo of doing drugs is social/bonding, especially when first getting to know people - but those drugs are best used only occasionally. I particularly enjoy introducing people to a new substance/experience. And of course, stims can be useful for getting things done, especially on a deadline or if one is tired, but given their toxicity I avoid regular stim use other than caffeine.

I’m always so thrilled to talk to other (relatively) young people with chronic pain. It’s a very unique situation. It’s not something I can talk about with anyone else. It’s by far the most effective therapy for dealing with the mental aspects of my situation. I’ve wondered why they don’t have support groups for people like us - or maybe they do, but getting there wouldn’t be worth the travel pain. Online is better than nothing, but I think IRL would be even more therapeutic.

 

[fairnymph]

While parentheral routes generally deliver oxycodone to the brain much faster than any oral formulation, it's actually MORE potent if consumed orally. The reason is that first-pass metabolism of the drug by the liver converts ≈10% of the dose into oxymorphone which as you may know, is around ten times more potent than oxycodone. Put simply, around 50% of the potency of oxyxodone is ACTUALLY due to it's active metabolite, oxymorphone.

Taken on an empty stomach, IR formulations of oxycodone have a faster onset of action than nearly evey other opioid and the duration is much longer. If you can hold on for an hour, you get more from a given amount of the drug when compated to snoorting the stuff.

I could go into the dull technical details if you wish, but I've mentioned this to a few people who snorted the pills and they concluded that the peak effect was stronger and much longer lived. They weren't sure, but they all gave up on snorting the stuff and instead crunched up the pill(s) and washed them down with a cup of tea.

For what it's worth, I've noted that when consumed orally, oxycodone produces more 'warmth' and is sedating whereas parentheral consumtion is sort of stimulating. I'm not a stimulant user and found the effects unpleasent.

If you haven't already, I do recommend you at least give it a try. I can promise it will not be less potent so you won't waste anything.

I’ve found that all drugs are more unpleasant/cold (& jittery if stimulants) when snorted. I do find oxycodone less sedating than other opiates but I also find it makes me more irritable and is not as effective for pain as hydrocodone.

 

[4DQSAR]

Snorting heroin - that is SO old school ;-)

Everyone is different. Morphine has no effect on me. That's why I was prescribed oxycodone. But in the UK, the only strong analgesic available to paramedics is morphine. I know; found out the hard way. Surgery followed by no analgesia, not fun.

 

[chippermonk]

One thing that I haven't noticed talked about anywhere on Bluelight is Opiate Induced Hyperalgesia (OIH) It seems less be a pretty important issue, the idea that taking opioids in large regular amounts can actually lead to greater pain. I don't say that to at all minimize anyone's need for pain meds, but it seems clear that for at least some people ( most? all?) taking them becomes unproductive in some ways. Taking more leads to diminishing benefits which leads to taking even more. But doctors may limit what they prescribe and you end up stuck in a place of ineffective pain relief.
The body does have it's natural abilities to fight pain ( of course not in extreme situations) OIH atrophies that ability. I wonder if there could be a way found to reduce that. Like trying to cycle between different classes of drugs or fine tuning doses.
In the case of people with serious physical problems causing pain, no. But a lot of people ( myself included) have very unpleasant pain and sometimes turn opioids. My pain though is honestly not so bad that I need to take them daily or in high doses. But at the same time, taking them feels good so I have the impulse to take higher doses than I truly need, and more often. Soon I get tolerance ( and also OIH, which is different from tolerance) Next thing you know I am on the slippery slope of addiction plus greater pain.
That actually isn't the case for me, I keep dosage levels and frequency low, but I sure as hell recognize the pull to do more. But I do wonder if even small doses 2 or 3 times a week is enough to cause OIH. Certainly my pain is worse, but I'm also older and have had injuries.
Sorry for the LONG post, I swear I don't do meth Maybe I'll start a thread just on OIH. I think it's an important topic which relates to addiction

 

[chippermonk]

TL;DR. I wonder if one can develop OIH and greater pain sensitivity without even taking enough opioids to develop tolerance and addiction.

 

[4DQSAR]

One thing that I haven't noticed talked about anywhere on Bluelight is Opiate Induced Hyperalgesia (OIH)

Good point well made.

I read a study in which a group of people prescribed methadone and a group of people not prescribed any type of opioid were used in a double-blind study. They were asked to hold their hand in a bucket filled with ice water for as long as they could stand the pain. Researchers expected those prescribed methadone would las longer.

Nope - consistantly people on opioids feel pain MORE.

I can find the paper for you if it's of interest.

 

[fairnymph]

Snorting heroin - that is SO old school ;-)

Everyone is different. Morphine has no effect on me. That's why I was prescribed oxycodone. But in the UK, the only strong analgesic available to paramedics is morphine. I know; found out the hard way. Surgery followed by no analgesia, not fun.

I actually use a nasal solution (made daily). I used to use a nasal spray bottle but it was constantly getting clogged so now I just use a dropper.

Morphine was the first pain med my NYC doctor prescribed me, and because I didn’t want to become physically dependent, I only used it every third day. But after less than three months on it, I developed hyperalgesia, which unfortunately has never gone away. But that’s crazy that morphine has no effect on you! There are a lot of drugs, especially OTC, that have no or very little effect on me - but not any of the opiates. Alprazolam is not remotely sedating & almost gives me a panic attack though. I wonder why morphine is the only strong analgesic on hand in the UK. Is it typical for their only to be one on hand in every country? I have no clue.

 

[fairnymph]

One thing that I haven't noticed talked about anywhere on Bluelight is Opiate Induced Hyperalgesia (OIH) It seems less be a pretty important issue, the idea that taking opioids in large regular amounts can actually lead to greater pain. I don't say that to at all minimize anyone's need for pain meds, but it seems clear that for at least some people ( most? all?) taking them becomes unproductive in some ways. Taking more leads to diminishing benefits which leads to taking even more. But doctors may limit what they prescribe and you end up stuck in a place of ineffective pain relief.
The body does have it's natural abilities to fight pain ( of course not in extreme situations) OIH atrophies that ability. I wonder if there could be a way found to reduce that. Like trying to cycle between different classes of drugs or fine tuning doses.
In the case of people with serious physical problems causing pain, no. But a lot of people ( myself included) have very unpleasant pain and sometimes turn opioids. My pain though is honestly not so bad that I need to take them daily or in high doses. But at the same time, taking them feels good so I have the impulse to take higher doses than I truly need, and more often. Soon I get tolerance ( and also OIH, which is different from tolerance) Next thing you know I am on the slippery slope of addiction plus greater pain.
That actually isn't the case for me, I keep dosage levels and frequency low, but I sure as hell recognize the pull to do more. But I do wonder if even small doses 2 or 3 times a week is enough to cause OIH. Certainly my pain is worse, but I'm also older and have had injuries.
Sorry for the LONG post, I swear I don't do meth Maybe I'll start a thread just on OIH. I think it's an important topic which relates to addiction

Jinx! So you experience hyperalgesia but only when you take it at high doses? Can you go into more detail as to how and when you develop it? How long does it take to go away or do you just need to go down in dose or what? I think that my intermittent use of morphine is why developed hyperalgesia (there’s research supporting this) & likely it is playing a role in your case too.

I assume that mine is permanent because I’m always getting some morphine since h converts in solution.

 

[chippermonk]

I think I read about that study.
I also read one paper that claimed that even taking acetaminophen in therapeutic doses for extended time could mildly cause OIH. But most things I've read say no.
Then there is the depression/anxiety angle. It's commonly said they can heighten sensitivity to pain, ( I raise my hand to that for me, I'm sure) At the same time, many people who take opioids will tell you that take it for depression/anxiety and definitely helps when high, at least at first. But then coming down leaves me more depressed. I'm sure it would be much worse if I did higher doses or let myself be addicted.
Anyhow, I'm not sure how to tie in that connection. I do wonder if people who take pain meds and do not have underlying depressive disorders might be less prone to addiction, and less prone to developing OIH