Drug Harm Alcohol vs Heroin

[Inso]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2001/jun/14/drugsandalcohol.socialsciences

This is the article Ismene referred to above - pretty much answers the whole debate.

Its actually very logical. Just round up every hardcore heroin addict and immediately prescribe them whatever amount of heroin they need to stay not sick. Hell, give them more, enough to get high even. Then suddenly they have absolutely no need to spend their entire day hustling up money in all sorts of unethical ways. This then equals a dramatic drop in crime - through less burglary and black-market heroin selling. Maybe some of these addicts go on to get off heroin with counselling or whatever, maybe some stay on it until the day they die, who really cares, its their life. And some will maybe go on to be somewhat functional members of society again.

Then also from a compassionate angle these addicts are not dying from dirty needles or random overdoses since from medical evidence heroin is a very safe drug on its own. Of course the daily mail brigade wants them all to die anyway, but since their precious society is now better, they would be happy too. There's no need to legalise heroin for all at this stage, that's a whole other debate entirely. But prescribing it to existing addicts makes far too much sense.

 

[eireann]

the worst thing you can to a heroin addict and their families is give them free or cheap heroin.
if any of you went to an na meeting you would hear every addict talking about their breaking point which lead to them becoming clean,if you supply heroin free to these people most of them will stay addicted until the day they die,people have to realize these heroin addicts are real people with real families,you dont cure an alcoholic with free alcohol,addicts need detox and counselling...not a free fix

 

[Allein]

I'm not convinced that attempts to restrict access either by availability or pricing have a substantial effect on consumption.

Alcohol and cigarettes are are almost always freely available to a recovering addict, as I guess is Heroin, prescribing heroin would surely only be done if the user was addicted and trying to come off in the same way as treatments can be obtained for alcohol and nicotine.

The evidence strongly suggest that apart from social stigma and the unholy mess of prohibition there is little difference in the potential pitfalls of all these substances and more. It's even true to say that there is strong evidence, the Lancet article being at least one source that Heroin is less harmful than alcohol as a substance suggesting that it is the illegality of the drug that has such a detrimental impact on peoples lives.

 

[knock]

prescribing heroin would surely only be done if the user was addicted and trying to come off in the same way as treatments can be obtained for alcohol and nicotine.

I don't know, there are people who seem to know what they're talking about, who think it should be prescribed to addicts indefinitely.

 

[class-a-team]

I mean, to persist in taking a highly addictive drug when you've been informed of the risks is suggestive of a psychological problem in and of itself, isn't it? Perhaps not one that should be treated with Heroin (although maybe), but one that should be picked up on and treated.

You're right, most people that start using heroin are vulnerable in some way and often suffer from emotional problems. Not always though. I was in a bad place when I had my first taste of the drug, but there's a chance I would've tried it anyway seeing as I am very curious-minded by nature and I knew not to believe all the tabloid scaremongering about becoming addicted after trying it once. Afterall, the heroin high is hyped up to be the most amazing euphoric feeling in the world, you don't have to be unwell to want to experience it for yourself.

I think emotional problems can be treated more effectively by other means. Recovered heroin addicts will tell you that the drug only masks the pain, whereas therapy would be far more beneficial for most. Prescribed heroin would only really be suitable for long-term addicts and people suffering extreme physical pain.

 

[eireann]

I don't know, there are people who seem to know what they're talking about, who think it should be prescribed to addicts indefinitely.

then those people are failing heroin addicts arnt they...

 

[Allein]

That could be an option I suppose, you can get nicotine replacement indefinitely as long as you attend the quitting meetings. They don't hand out booze, I've only experience of alcohol detox directly but I'm sure treatment would have continued had I wanted it but failed to stop that time.

In a society where Heroin where legal I doubt there would be any need to provide it for free, I'm not promoting a rapid move to complete legalisation in the way alcohol and cigarettes are legal, I think that would be a disaster. IMO one country could never unilaterally make such a move without becoming the drug haven of the world, a polydrug Amsterdam on a massive scale.

In the present shambolic situation it would seem sensible to reduce the damage to society that Heroin obviously causes to both the users and the non users, if that means prescribing Heroin to stabilise peoples use, protect their health and stop them from committing crime the so be it.

 

[eireann]

You're right, most people that start using heroin are vulnerable in some way and often suffer from emotional problems. Not always though. I was in a bad place when I had my first taste of the drug, but there's a chance I would've tried it anyway seeing as I am very curious-minded by nature and I knew not to believe all the tabloid scaremongering about becoming addicted after trying it once. Afterall, the heroin high is hyped up to be the most amazing euphoric feeling in the world, you don't have to be unwell to want to experience it for yourself.

I think emotional problems can be treated more effectively by other means. Recovered heroin addicts will tell you that the drug only masks the pain, whereas therapy would be far more beneficial for most. Prescribed heroin would only really be suitable for long-term addicts and people suffering extreme physical pain.

i believe this post to be the truest on this thread so far....excluding the long term addict comment,but in my opinion it is the most honest of all posts on this thread

hats off to you

 

[Ismene]

You're right, most people that start using heroin are vulnerable in some way and often suffer from emotional problems

But which is likely to reduce your emotional problems - having to spend all day committing robberies or selling your arse to fund your habit or simply being prescribed it for nothing after you get home from work? Prescribed heroin adds order to your life - a key thing for anyone struggling with emotional problems.

Recovered heroin addicts will tell you that the drug only masks the pain, whereas therapy would be far more beneficial for most.

I'm not sure therapy does anything but mask the pain too.

Prescribed heroin would only really be suitable for long-term addicts and people suffering extreme physical pain.

So if you arn't a long-term addict then it does you good committing robberies all day to get shit quality heroin that's going to kill/infect you? No - I can't see any negatives in prescribing heroin to anyone. If you must, ask them to go on a therapy course while prescribing the heroin.

 

[knock]

But which is likely to reduce your emotional problems - having to spend all day committing robberies or selling your arse to fund your habit or simply being prescribed it for nothing after you get home from work? Prescribed heroin adds order to your life - a key thing for anyone struggling with emotional problems.

Recovered heroin addicts will tell you that the drug only masks the pain, whereas therapy would be far more beneficial for most.

I'm not sure therapy does anything but mask the pain too.

Prescribed heroin would only really be suitable for long-term addicts and people suffering extreme physical pain.

So if you arn't a long-term addict then it does you good committing robberies all day to get shit quality heroin that's going to kill/infect you? No - I can't see any negatives in prescribing heroin to anyone. If you must, ask them to go on a therapy course while prescribing the heroin.

Ismene's logic does seem pretty sound. I like it.

Except the bit about therapy. I think it's possible for therapy to deal with underlying issues. HOWEVER I think it's far too time consuming and expensive in the current setup, to be economically advantageous over herion.

In fact: I you Ismene.

 

[charlie clean]

Doncha just love these peops who'd force all drug users into detox and 'rehabilitation' because 'obviously' it's 'the right thing' to do? The philosophy of the 3rd Reich, no more, no less.

 

[koneko]

Doncha just love these peops who'd force all drug users into detox and 'rehabilitation' because 'obviously' it's 'the right thing' to do? The philosophy of the 3rd Reich, no more, no less.

All?

 

[charlie clean]

Well, all opiate users, anyway. Doing anything about 5 million potheads would present a logistical problem, hence the current law-enforcement policy of looking the other way and calling it social policing.

 

[knock]

Well, all opiate users, anyway. Doing anything about 5 million potheads would present a logistical problem, hence the current law-enforcement policy of looking the other way and calling it social policing.

I'm glad you're here Charlie Please bring some educated, experienced, eloquent sense! This thread needs you, and it needs you hard!

 

[class-a-team]

But which is likely to reduce your emotional problems - having to spend all day committing robberies or selling your arse to fund your habit or simply being prescribed it for nothing after you get home from work? Prescribed heroin adds order to your life - a key thing for anyone struggling with emotional problems.

Recovered heroin addicts will tell you that the drug only masks the pain, whereas therapy would be far more beneficial for most.

I'm not sure therapy does anything but mask the pain too.

Prescribed heroin would only really be suitable for long-term addicts and people suffering extreme physical pain.

So if you arn't a long-term addict then it does you good committing robberies all day to get shit quality heroin that's going to kill/infect you? No - I can't see any negatives in prescribing heroin to anyone. If you must, ask them to go on a therapy course while prescribing the heroin.

If you read any of my earlier posts you would see I thought prescribing heroin to addicts was a good thing. But I don't see any use in making heroin legally available to the rest of the public. The only people that need heroin are addicts, not anyone with emotional problems. By addicts, I mean anyone that is showing some willingness to get clean. People like me who go on binges for a few weeks at a time shouldn't be allowed get free heroin. Why should the taxpayer pay for my recreational heroin use when I pose no threat to society?

And I think that medication, prescription or illegal, is very rarely needed for emotional problems. Effective therapy helps a person accept their past and take control of their future.

 

[brimz]

the worst thing you can to a heroin addict and their families is give them free or cheap heroin.
if any of you went to an na meeting you would hear every addict talking about their breaking point which lead to them becoming clean,if you supply heroin free to these people most of them will stay addicted until the day they die,people have to realize these heroin addicts are real people with real families,you dont cure an alcoholic with free alcohol,addicts need detox and counselling...not a free fix

Having attended many N.A meetings i know the rhetoric . You talk as if your the only person here that has been in a room .

 

[Cornishman]

It's the lifestyle that ruins families, etc. Not the drug.

 

[Myshkin]

And I think that medication, prescription or illegal, is very rarely needed for emotional problems. Effective therapy helps a person accept their past and take control of their future.

Therapy is effective for many people, but isn't quite the panacea it's made out to be. There are many individuals that simply aren't suited for that type of treatment, many of whom self-medicate. Any honest therapist will be the first to tell you that.

In addition to this, what percentage of people with 'emotional problems' are fully aware of the reality of their situation and its root causes? Aware there's a problem at all, even?

Why should the taxpayer pay for my recreational heroin use when I pose no threat to society?

You identify your own occasional use as recreational, other people might see their own use of heroin as therapeutic. And you might not pose a threat to society, but what about the criminal gangs concerned in the drug's supply? Fine upstanding types?

Obvously that's not a factor if you're proposing across-the-board legalisation, which is admittedly a distant pipe-dream for now.

As an aside (and this is not a dig at you, class-a-team, but the lexicon of the tabloids), when these issues are discussed in the mainstream media, why is there always this divide between 'the taxpayer' and the people accessing public services? It would seem 'the taxpayer' has no vices and goes private for everything.

Don't even get me started on 'hard-working families'.

 

[Ghostface]

If in an ideal world every susbtance was legal, I do not think we would have a higher number of drug users. If you want drugs, you can find them easily enough, legal or not. In this world, heroin would be legal, and thus comparable to alcohol, in terms of affects. I have never tried heroin, nor had any friends as addicts, but have had friends who ran into some issues due to alcohol. Back, to the ideal world. In this society, an alcoholic would be as we know them, but could a heroin addict be a functioning member of society? This can be answered only be heroin addicts. Would heroin be constantly in the back of your mind, would you be able to function, in a normal job, without nodding out etc. If the use of heroin is only to not feel sick, then does methadone and subutex not fill that gap. In the past, regarding threads like this, I have felt, that some heroin addicts try to justify their use, with this type on argument and comparisson. I saw the Vice documentary in Pakistan, and despite those addicts probably getting almost pure heroin, their lifestyle was, as junkie can be. Nothing to do with the purity of the drug.

In my current country of residence, Greece, heroin attributes to more social problems than alcohol. That is, beacuse alcohol is viewed completely different here, compared to the UK, i.e binge drinking is unheard off. Having lived in the UK, I can compare both environments. In the UK, I think alcohol affects society more negatively than heroin, the opposite to Greece.

 

[class-a-team]

Therapy is effective for many people, but isn't quite the panacea it's made out to be. There are many individuals that simply aren't suited for that type of treatment, many of whom self-medicate. Any honest therapist will be the first to tell you that.

In addition to this, what percentage of people with 'emotional problems' are fully aware of the reality of their situation and its root causes? Aware there's a problem at all, even?



You identify your own occasional use as recreational, other people might see their own use of heroin as therapeutic. And you might not pose a threat to society, but what about the criminal gangs concerned in the drug's supply? Fine upstanding types?

Obvously that's not a factor if you're proposing across-the-board legalisation, which is admittedly a distant pipe-dream for now.

As an aside (and this is not a dig at you, class-a-team, but the lexicon of the tabloids), when these issues are discussed in the mainstream media, why is there always this divide between 'the taxpayer' and the people accessing public services? It would seem 'the taxpayer' has no vices and goes private for everything.

Don't even get me started on 'hard-working families'.

Maybe my occasional heroin use is also therapeutic, but the SSRI I'm on at the moment allows me to manage depression without goofing off every day. Heroin is a luxury, nobody needs it and there are better drugs available that do the same job but allow the user to continue to live as a functioning member of society.

As for criminal gangs, their power and wealth would be severely diminished if heroin was prescribed to addicts. However, possession of heroin for personal use should be decriminalised.

I think the main issue is deciding whether heroin addiction is an illness or a lifestyle choice. If we decide it's an illness, heroin addicts should be prescribed heroin and the drug should be decriminalised. If we decide that it is a lifestyle choice, across-the-board legislation would be the obvious solution. But we can't have both.

My argument about the taxpayer is only relevant in the event that heroin is both legalised and prescribed to addicts. Otherwise, the taxpayer is already paying for methadone so I don't see any reason why prescribing heroin would be any different.