Opioids Do you think its possible (in the future) for a drug to completely stop WD's from opiates?

[Nicomorphinist]

It's probably possible, I'm thinking about ;
1. enkephaline and endorphine reuptake inhibitor.

I have definitely wondered about such things, and consider also that there has been sporadic evidence and theory over the years since the receptor theory was first promulgated that there may be a total number of opioid receptors on the order of anywhere from six to fifteen and each of these can have any number of subtypes, and the ζ opioid receptor found recently . . . any of the obscure opioid receptors could also be masquerading as something else, the reverse of the σ receptor which was until fairly recently thought of as an opioid receptor.

And then of course, as the case with the NMDA system, classical opioids and synthetics both have opioid-like effects

2. An enzyme inhibitor responsible for the breakdown of endogenous opioids.

There is that angle too, naturally . . .

3. And there's already Clonidine that actually help alot.

Yes, very much so

4. Alcohol ease it too.

It can help in a pinch to be sure, but there is the awful feeling of alcohol hangover on top of early-stage narcotic withdrawal, which is horrendous, as I am sure most narcotics people know already,

5. Stimulant like Amphetamine also work but it's not a everyone thing.

Quite a bit of evidence for that indeed, with the dopaminergic stimulants have the greatest effect. Which is why, for example, methylphenidate + tripelennamine + opioid(s) are combinations which has more impact than the ingredients themselves. Then there is lephetamine (Santenol) and so forth . . .

 

[draculic acid69]

About opioid-induced hyperalgesia, there is also the possibility that any increase in pain level and the pain becoming much more intractable may come from elsewhere and does not involve opioid receptors, making the name of the whole syndrome inaccurate. The very good results which doctors have had using levorphanol for cases in which OIH is suspected may point to the increase and modification of analgesia. Levorphanol appears to be an option of using the anti-nociceptive, NMDA, σ, and possibly other effects to help in cases like nerve pain, fibromyalgia, and other hard to treat pain, without the neurotoxicity and QT lengthening effects caused by the dextromethadone which are present in racaemic methadone, with the much stronger opioid agonist levomethadone being used for pain and offered as a possibility for detoxification and maintenance; the most common trade name is Polamidon(e) and is used like this in Switzerland, Austria, and Germany, with other countries also having access to levomethadone for analgesic use but not yet used for detoxification and maintenance.

Doctors in the States are also apparently being pressured in various jurisdictions to quite literally treat chronic pain like narcotic addicts, this by suggesting, nudging, or pushing them on to Suboxone, buprenorphine-only formulations, and methadone . . . I hope people are not doing this if they have any choice in the matter, because having Suboxone in particular on one's record is going to store up all manner of trouble should that chronic pain cause being a life-long thing, which it is in many cases. A new doctor, is, like most of humankind, prone to laziness and will not want to dig through a file and find dictation notes on a given patient's medical history, so unless they are unusually conscientious and diligent about it, the doctors will take the path of least resistance which is to assume that a chronic patient who was on Suboxone now and in the past is a drug seeker and addict. Damn right patients with under-treated or poorly managed pain are drug seekers -- they know there is something which can help, so they are also X-Ray seekers, MRI seekers, chiropractic seekers, physiotherapy seekers . . .

As I have noted here before, countries with saner policies on this kind of thing are adding several pharmaceutical opioids to the options available to Opioid Substitution Therapy people, with dihydrocodeine and morphine extended-release tablets and slow-release tramadol for maintenance cases, as well as slow-release hydromorphone, tramadol, propoxyphene, and codeine available for such use, and in some cases prescribing smack and/or allowing for supervised injection, and in some locales allowing for use of morphine and/or hydromorphone for the same IV/IM/SC administration.

Apparently tramadol isn't supposed to be used for maintenance.might be it's long WD duration.

 

[draculic acid69]

I have definitely wondered about such things, and consider also that there has been sporadic evidence and theory over the years since the receptor theory was first promulgated that there may be a total number of opioid receptors on the order of anywhere from six to fifteen and each of these can have any number of subtypes, and the ζ opioid receptor found recently . . . any of the obscure opioid receptors could also be masquerading as something else, the reverse of the σ receptor which was until fairly recently thought of as an opioid receptor.

And then of course, as the case with the NMDA system, classical opioids and synthetics both have opioid-like effects



There is that angle too, naturally . . .



Yes, very much so



It can help in a pinch to be sure, but there is the awful feeling of alcohol hangover on top of early-stage narcotic withdrawal, which is horrendous, as I am sure most narcotics people know already,



Quite a bit of evidence for that indeed, with the dopaminergic stimulants have the greatest effect. Which is why, for example, methylphenidate + tripelennamine + opioid(s) are combinations which has more impact than the ingredients themselves.

Alcohol and withdrawal symptoms would be an extremely unpleasant feeling. As for amphetamines I found that some of the cathinones made my opioid craving reduce or dissapear.i seen a paper on phenyl pyrrolidine ethanones (2carbon PvP analogs)
being used for pain management but I can't find any trace of it now.interesting line of inquiry.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

In theory, wouldn't there be a way to convince the brain chemically that it does not need to withdraw its natural endorphins while being introduced to artificial ones? That would therefor prevent any opiate withdrawal

 

[draculic acid69]

Until the artificial ones are stopped and withdrawal starts.

 

[draculic acid69]

Like when ppl shut down there testosterone production from taking synthetic test you might shut down your endorphin production from taking synthetic endorphins.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

Apparently tramadol isn't supposed to be used for maintenance.might be it's long WD duration.

It sounds like, at least in Central Europe, the 50, 100, 150, and 200 mg extended-release tablets are used most in the final or penultimate dose in a stepwise detoxification protocol for people who cannot tolerate dihydrocodeine and/or more likely codeine HCl neat in particular, and is used mainly in patients who have histamine-related effects which are moderately serious and difficult to manage, or have arrived at a methadone or levomethadone dose which is not able to easily be reduced again if only for logistics, such as having to cut tablets into 6, 8, 10, 12, 16, 24, 25, 32, 36 or whatever equal pieces or open up capsules and count the beads and so on . . . At least a lot of the tablets are easy to powder I guess, as I started in on a 200 or 250 mg biconvex tramadol extended-release tablet with a hammer as an academic exercise responded to being whacked very hard with a carpenters/general purpose hammer by practically exploding, sort of like a mild version of how celluloid pool/billiards balls use to explode when being used.

The long withdrawal symptom period for tramadol, as well as some unique withdrawal symptoms, would make it sensible to use the tramadol at the penultimate step in such a detoxification protocol as the above, and were I in that situation, I would want to use liquid tramadol PO and/or SL along with preferably liquid hydroxyzine and/or promethazine to potentiate the tramadol and reduce side effects from it, and rather than going from a dose which was doing its job to zero at the end, the tramadol can be tapered down a mg at a time and may work better than it had been because of the detoxification period.

 

[Nicomorphinist]

What would be really useful would be to determine exactly why and how the human body itself literally makes its own morphine, codeine, dihydromorphine, hydromorphone and some other things like a possible levorphanol precursor and DMT and other things it makes by standard operating procedures . . . then finding a way like hypnosis that such a mechanism could be started, ceased, fine-tuned and forth-- there are also cortisone and similar methylprednisolone, and others redealt in the same fashion, but necessary things will be found.

 

[lukeskywatcher]

One can only wish. The biggest reason why I’m so scared to stop using. I don’t wanna go thru w/d but also don’t wanna b addicted to methadone / subs then just prolong the w/d. Shit fuckin SUX. Especially since now it’s fentanyl and fent withdrawal is fuckin tERRIBLE

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I'm also wondering how much genetics plays a role in addiction. Both my parents were at one point heavy users--I mean HEAVY in their early 20s to their 30s. My mother preferred opiates (and only opiates) and my father cocaine and alcohol. I definitely did not inherit his side as I despise both of his drugs of choice.

I don't recall any form of depression before my using, and maybe perhaps anxiety but nothing clinically worthy of treatment. But I can definitely assert that depression and anxiety were not my motivation for seeking out substances. I was a relatively happy and stimulated guy. For me it felt like the inability to avoid the pleasures of using over needing substances to compensate for something I was inherently lacking. I still can't explain my addictions other than lacking self control when I know something around me will make me feel very good despite consequences.

It's not very well understood yet (very little about the human brain is) but there is believed to be a genetic component to addiction yes and there's data to back that up. Medical classifications of addiction list family history as a risk factor.

I think I may have some kind of family history of alcohol and opiate addiction, I don't wanna pry about it but it's been suggested to me, and while I don't see the big deal about booze I certainly fucking love opiates. Whereas I know many people who hate them because "they just make me sick and itchy" and those people often sell me their scripts.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

It's not very well understood yet (very little about the human brain is) but there is believed to be a genetic component to addiction yes and there's data to back that up. Medical classifications of addiction list family history as a risk factor.

I think I may have some kind of family history of alcohol and opiate addiction, I don't wanna pry about it but it's been suggested to me, and while I don't see the big deal about booze I certainly fucking love opiates. Whereas I know many people who hate them because "they just make me sick and itchy" and those people often sell me their scripts.

Ah okay I've heard that too. I've felt like I inherited some weird compulsion to not be able to resist temptation but I suppose that would be a sad excuse and remove any responsibility from my actions lol.

It's definitely helped me keep things together so far that I was raised in a very loving and caring environment so I haven't fallen off the deep end so to say yet. I did notice that when my roomie and I first tried opioids I did initially have way more tolerance than him, and it took me twice as much to feel the effects in terms of milligrams than it did for him (with no family history of abuse). So tolerance does seem to also be passed down. It would probably be much harder for me to overdose on opiates in general than the average person.

I too hate booze. Despite generations of men in my family being heavy and useless alcoholic scum. By the way, both my parents have very successful drug-free lives after their recoveries. Hard to believe but recovery is possible even with the worst offenders.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Ah okay I've heard that too. I've felt like I inherited some weird compulsion to not be able to resist temptation but I suppose that would be a sad excuse and remove any responsibility from my actions lol.

It's definitely helped me keep things together so far that I was raised in a very loving and caring environment so I haven't fallen off the deep end so to say yet. I did notice that when my roomie and I first tried opioids I did initially have way more tolerance than him, and it took me twice as much to feel the effects in terms of milligrams than it did for him (with no family history of abuse). So tolerance does seem to also be passed down. It would probably be much harder for me to overdose on opiates in general than the average person.

I too hate booze. Despite generations of men in my family being heavy and useless alcoholic scum. By the way, both my parents have very successful drug-free lives after their recoveries. Hard to believe but recovery is possible even with the worst offenders.

I honestly do think the compulsion thing is a big factor for obvious reasons. Put 100 pills of morphine and temazepam in front of me and I will eat that shit compulsively until I'm nodding hard and scratching my face off. On the other hand I have a bottle of vodka just sitting here gathering dust and hundreds of pills of amphetamine I can happily go a week without if I'm not in the mood for it and I won't even think twice about that let alone crave anything.

I agree it's no excuse to act like you don't have responsibility, but there's no reason such a realisation needs to lead to that conclusion. I also know that I naturally have poor social skills but I don't use that as an excuse to be rude to everyone for example. I make an effort to manage my behaviour in both cases.

I get the same with tolerance. Even if I've done no opiates for months I could have a full 80mg oxy, once tolerance starts building again I can easily do over 300mg without even nodding. It's frankly fucking annoying. I'd rather have low tolerance and get more enjoyment out of my drugs. It seems to depend on the specific drug though, I seem to react far better to morphine even when I had an oxy tolerance.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I honestly do think the compulsion thing is a big factor for obvious reasons. Put 100 pills of morphine and temazepam in front of me and I will eat that shit compulsively until I'm nodding hard and scratching my face off. On the other hand I have a bottle of vodka just sitting here gathering dust and hundreds of pills of amphetamine I can happily go a week without if I'm not in the mood for it and I won't even think twice about that let alone crave anything.

I agree it's no excuse to act like you don't have responsibility, but there's no reason such a realisation needs to lead to that conclusion. I also know that I naturally have poor social skills but I don't use that as an excuse to be rude to everyone for example. I make an effort to manage my behaviour in both cases.

I get the same with tolerance. Even if I've done no opiates for months I could have a full 80mg oxy, once tolerance starts building again I can easily do over 300mg without even nodding. It's frankly fucking annoying. I'd rather have low tolerance and get more enjoyment out of my drugs. It seems to depend on the specific drug though, I seem to react far better to morphine even when I had an oxy tolerance.

Do you consume oral morphine tablets? hand over those amphetamines if ya don't mind

A lot of people think that all addicts are "suffering" or addiction is an escape or something but it's just so much more complicated than that. I just think that any person on the street could become hooked on heroin, but maybe that's obvious logic. Are we suffering as we consume substances for whatever reasons? I don't know. My life so far has been very fulfilling. I don't even need the drugs but for some reason it's so tempting. At the end of the day I probably want to get off all this garbage provided the only thing that requires me to be taken at this point is opiate related things and rn it's only kratom really that I withdraw from. Society's pressure convincing us that I'm doing the wrong thing thus far has been the biggest motivator to quit. Of course as I type this I know that it could get so much worse at one point and I'd be eating my words, but it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything wrong...especially because the country I live in promotes everyone be drop-dead sober and then binge on booze to sleep with gorgeous babes while our doctors pop out pills from every dimension for people with minor toe pain LOL

I dunno what to believe anymore but at least since finding this website I've seen all different kinds of users and now know that even the most intelligent people on earth can be prone to addiction. Seems like society enjoys controlling the public's enjoyment for sex, substances, etc. just as a form of monitoring it's citizens. But now I sound like a conspiracy hippy. At the end of the day whatever we put in our bodies should be our choice and if anything "the war on drugs" has showed the USA is that you can't stop someone from using. But for sure the heroin epidemic is encouraged by our government and there's no way high level political figures aren't secretly allowing it to come in or paid off to turn a blind eye. Sure we have problems with meth and booze and benzos but really heroin is what's destroying us atm. I remember reading how the opiate epidemic is costing our nations millions regularly bc of productive citizens falling off. Anyone from any class of wealth/background seems to be prone to opiate addiction

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Do you consume oral morphine tablets? hand over those amphetamines if ya don't mind

A lot of people think that all addicts are "suffering" or addiction is an escape or something but it's just so much more complicated than that. I just think that any person on the street could become hooked on heroin, but maybe that's obvious logic. Are we suffering as we consume substances for whatever reasons? I don't know. My life so far has been very fulfilling. I don't even need the drugs but for some reason it's so tempting. At the end of the day I probably want to get off all this garbage provided the only thing that requires me to be taken at this point is opiate related things and rn it's only kratom really that I withdraw from. Society's pressure convincing us that I'm doing the wrong thing thus far has been the biggest motivator to quit. Of course as I type this I know that it could get so much worse at one point and I'd be eating my words, but it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything wrong...especially because the country I live in promotes everyone be drop-dead sober and then binge on booze to sleep with gorgeous babes while our doctors pop out pills from every dimension for people with minor toe pain LOL

I dunno what to believe anymore but at least since finding this website I've seen all different kinds of users and now know that even the most intelligent people on earth can be prone to addiction. Seems like society enjoys controlling the public's enjoyment for sex, substances, etc. just as a form of monitoring it's citizens. But now I sound like a conspiracy hippy. At the end of the day whatever we put in our bodies should be our choice and if anything "the war on drugs" has showed the USA is that you can't stop someone from using. But for sure the heroin epidemic is encouraged by our government and there's no way high level political figures aren't secretly allowing it to come in or paid off to turn a blind eye. Sure we have problems with meth and booze and benzos but really heroin is what's destroying us atm. I remember reading how the opiate epidemic is costing our nations millions regularly bc of productive citizens falling off. Anyone from any class of wealth/background seems to be prone to opiate addiction

I do like oral morphine, both in capsule and liquid form. Despite the low BA I do get a real nice high from it. If you had a load of morphine I'd swap amphetamines for it haha.

Addiction is indeed a very complex thing with a lot of factors. Although roughly half of addicts have preexisting mental health conditions, which suggests self-medication is a major driving factor, you then have the other half who are mentally healthy and get hooked for other reasons.

Agreed with a lot of what you said here especially the double standard between booze and basically any other psychoactive substance even if it's much less harmful. And yeah this "war on drugs" shit is never gonna work, you might as well tell the whole population to never have sex, just as likely to be effective. Humans like doing things that are pleasurable, who'd a thunk it?

 

[Crackedout420]

Even if it was possible the government makes money on people needing their subs. They probably wouldnt release said treatment o eliminate withdrawals. Not to mention antidepressant are a sham. But that's another story.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I do like oral morphine, both in capsule and liquid form. Despite the low BA I do get a real nice high from it. If you had a load of morphine I'd swap amphetamines for it haha.

Addiction is indeed a very complex thing with a lot of factors. Although roughly half of addicts have preexisting mental health conditions, which suggests self-medication is a major driving factor, you then have the other half who are mentally healthy and get hooked for other reasons.

Agreed with a lot of what you said here especially the double standard between booze and basically any other psychoactive substance even if it's much less harmful. And yeah this "war on drugs" shit is never gonna work, you might as well tell the whole population to never have sex, just as likely to be effective. Humans like doing things that are pleasurable, who'd a thunk it?

Haha I like oral morphine too. Morphine for some reason has alot of euphoria imo--only problem is the feeling is less obvious when it's there so it's hard to get the dose right and you could easily take too much. Then you struggle breathing and having outrageous itchiness. I've gotten into the danger zone because the effects were so delayed one time and I took too much because I wasn't feeling anything... and BAM.


iirc subs are not easy to access? Or at least the way health insurance works it seems a bit harder to get subs than you would think. The government does make quite a lot off of suboxone/subutex but it seems like they're more hesitant to prescribe it like they are percocet or something. It's pretty backwards. They know that it's profitable to get people HOOKED on short acting opioids and then make even more when people want to quit through suboxone use. Still, I think suboxone is a fantastic life saver for many. So many addicts could not quit heroin until they were placed on sub treatment.

I would think one with very low opiate tolerance would fair well with suboxone as a painkiller in itself because of the duration of the effects. The USA could easily help the "epidemic" by prescribing subs initially before percocet but that's just my opinion. Undoubtedly less people overdose on suboxone over oxy or heroin. Plus the nalaxone blocker would in theory prevent alot of abuse from external non-prescribed usage? Oral morphine is the best for pain relief but for some reason specifically in the USA it's not prescribed nearly as often as oxycodone--which leads me to believe our medical facilities know full well how powerful and addicting short-acting opioids can be and simply want to profit off of people's suffering. It's a fact that morphine is well regarded as one of the best opiate painkillers but it's not often well recieved by people trying to get high because of the low bioavailbility when you digest it. Plus I would describe it as a lighter blanket feeling of warmth when oxy can hit like a brick. I've only taken it a few times, and it did feel more effective for being a painkiller than oxy does.

Either way, my government could not have handled the opiate crisis any more horribly. The only reason it's even a topic is because of the high rate of caucasian overdoses due to doctors being reluctant to prescribe opioids to non-whites. On top of that, they declared a "state of emergency" for the results their actions and from what I've seen haven't really been doing anything differently besides prescribing oxycodone and percocet less. However, this genuinely hurts chronic pain patients who legitimately need the script to go about their day. Now everyone-addict and non-addict is far more prone to heroin abuse. On top of that, the fact that kratom was even once considered ban-worthy just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Haha I like oral morphine too. Morphine for some reason has alot of euphoria imo--only problem is the feeling is less obvious when it's there so it's hard to get the dose right and you could easily take too much. Then you struggle breathing and having outrageous itchiness. I've gotten into the danger zone because the effects were so delayed one time and I took too much because I wasn't feeling anything... and BAM.

I can relate to that haha, I had a few bottles of Oramorph and was sipping one slowly waiting for it to come on, since I didn't feel anything I ended up drinking half the bottle and suddenly it all hit at once and I nodded the fuck out. I'm not one to complain about a good solid nod, but I had to go to work in a few hours. I was still nodding at work even though I boshed the amphetamine. Luckily the supervisor in that shift was a mate of mine and just said be careful how much you take next time.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I can relate to that haha, I had a few bottles of Oramorph and was sipping one slowly waiting for it to come on, since I didn't feel anything I ended up drinking half the bottle and suddenly it all hit at once and I nodded the fuck out. I'm not one to complain about a good solid nod, but I had to go to work in a few hours. I was still nodding at work even though I boshed the amphetamine. Luckily the supervisor in that shift was a mate of mine and just said be careful how much you take next time.

Lol that's the scariest part about playing the game. Sometime you're ripped af because you either have a lapse in self-control or logic and have to function at a high level for something. Still, way easier to function imo than on benzos

If you scratch yourself everywhere in public someone will give you a good stare too

 

[Brendo9269]

Yea there is a drug that completely takes away all withdrawals and iv used it...ibogaine

 

[Soso78]

I hope not! I did my rip off methadone and heroin so u can all do yours