Opioids Do you think 90% of your opiate(heroin,oxys,meth,subs) wds are just in your head??

[Mr.Scagnattie]

what is your daily dosage how long for and means of taking it if you dont mind me asking?... i take 100 mg (tramadol) at a time and no more than 4 times a day cuz im scared of seizures... i dont want to sound like a snot but t intrigues me how it can vary so deeply for diff people

I was an IV heroin addict for over 10 years and when I checked into detox and was put on a standard tramadol protocol, I had been on a 4 bundle a day habit for about 8 or 9 months straight. There were other people in there with similar habits to mine who also got no relief whatsoever from the tramadol, despite consistently doubling our dose every time we lined up for meds. It is just too weak of an opiate to have any real effect once your habit unfortunately reaches a certain level. Which was a shame because some kids in there took their dose and were right as rain.. but they hadn't been using very long and not very high amounts.

 

[roundnround]

dihydrocodeine. it's an opiate, that can be used if you take it seriously and taper off it correctly instead of abusing it. it is abusable and thats the problem with it - if you don't want to quit you'll abuse it.

to get your tolerance down quit cold turkey and take immodium for the w/d's. thats the quickest way to reduce your tolerance along with exercise. but you also have to understand your tolerance will never go back to 0. no matter how long you wait you'll always have a slight tolerance or sensitivity (probably the better word) to opiates.

i cannot do complete cold turkey as the reg pain of my condition is literally crippling all wd pain and bullshit aside i would not be able to function without some sort of pain relief so taht is totally out of the question.. im gonna research the dhc tho it sounds like an inbred cousin of vicodin and codeine lol.. i do realiz i'll never be at ground zero and if i wasnt so young (did i just say that) then i wouldnt ever be worrid about my tollerance increase but if im taking this much at 31 what the f am i gonna have to take at 51/61 etc... when i first started on oxy i absolutely hated the feeling of it so i have never tried to get a nod going etc and they barely effect me mentally at all what i take helps my pain and nothing else.... sad to say (for some that like that) that almost 200 mgs a day for my skinny ass (im 5'8 and 120) doesnt even get me "high" in the slightest

by the way i do not consider tramadol an opiate or anything that has any beneficial "recreational" value as some do so whn i read about people abusing it as such and considering themselves to hav an opiate addiction from them i kinda laugh... they may help for pain (barely) and mental status (pretty good for me) but i find it laughable that anyone even with zero tolly could consider them a recreational opiate

 

[roundnround]

I was an IV heroin addict for over 10 years and when I checked into detox and was put on a standard tramadol protocol, I had been on a 4 bundle a day habit for about 8 or 9 months straight. There were other people in there with similar habits to mine who also got no relief whatsoever from the tramadol, despite consistently doubling our dose every time we lined up for meds. It is just too weak of an opiate to have any real effect once your habit unfortunately reaches a certain level. Which was a shame because some kids in there took their dose and were right as rain.. but they hadn't been using very long and not very high amounts.

while i disagree that tramadol is an opiate and i understand that heroin is in the opie fam i have zero experience with heroin but even still i would assume that the withdrawls are different levels of severity between opiates and heroin and i can imagine that tramadol wouldnt help heroin wd...

 

[roundnround]

I was an IV heroin addict for over 10 years and when I checked into detox and was put on a standard tramadol protocol, I had been on a 4 bundle a day habit for about 8 or 9 months straight. There were other people in there with similar habits to mine who also got no relief whatsoever from the tramadol, despite consistently doubling our dose every time we lined up for meds. It is just too weak of an opiate to have any real effect once your habit unfortunately reaches a certain level. Which was a shame because some kids in there took their dose and were right as rain.. but they hadn't been using very long and not very high amounts.

ps i find it hard to believe that they were increasing your dose that much as the weakest pill of tramadol is 50 mgs (i take 100mg a dose) and the daily ammount cannot exceed 400 mg per 24hrs due to seizures... are you sure you mean tramadol? i have not heard of tramadol being used in detoxes before in the united states... r u from the states?

 

[roundnround]

to the OP were you on methedone as a pain reliever or as an alternative to heroin use ... yes i realize methedone is methedone is methedone but im just curious if you dont mind me asking

ps im new here and i dont mean to come off know it all ish or like someone who likes to hear myself talk i just dont know how to combine multiple quotes in one comment so my apologies for hijacking the thread

 

[Lady Codone]

To answer the original question: Legit emotional/mental symptoms are not the same thing as "in your head" (imaginary). Same thing with mental illness, which is definitely NOT imaginary but technically resides in the head.

My opiate withdrawals have always consisted mostly of mental/emotional symptoms like anxiety, rage, fatigue, depression, etc. But I realize those symptoms have as much of a biological basis as physical symptoms like vomiting or diarrhea.

The brain is not separate from the body; it's an organ just like any other and responds to withdrawals as much as other parts of the body do. It just happens to control thought and emotions.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

while i disagree that tramadol is an opiate and i understand that heroin is in the opie fam i have zero experience with heroin but even still i would assume that the withdrawls are different levels of severity between opiates and heroin and i can imagine that tramadol wouldnt help heroin wd...

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying, you are saying you "disagree that tramadol is an opiate"? Like you don't believe it's an opiate? Or did you mean to say the reverse? Technically opioid is a better term, since it refers to natural, semi-synthetic and synthetic opiates. Tramadol is a weak opioid but it also induces serotonin release, and inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine. You are correct that withdrawals from different opioids are different and have different levels of severity. It also depends on how much one takes and for how long. If someone is used to taking a high dose of a strong opioid (like heroin, methadone, fentanyl, etc) for a long period of time, then a weak opioid is not likely to give them much relief. Tramadol can be helpful for some people though, and the serotonergic effects might be helpful as well as the opioid effects.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

ps i find it hard to believe that they were increasing your dose that much as the weakest pill of tramadol is 50 mgs (i take 100mg a dose) and the daily ammount cannot exceed 400 mg per 24hrs due to seizures... are you sure you mean tramadol? i have not heard of tramadol being used in detoxes before in the united states... r u from the states?

Yes. I'm sure.

 

[thelastclubkid]

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying, you are saying you "disagree that tramadol is an opiate"? Like you don't believe it's an opiate? Or did you mean to say the reverse? Technically opioid is a better term, since it refers to natural, semi-synthetic and synthetic opiates. Tramadol is a weak opioid but it also induces serotonin release, and inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine. You are correct that withdrawals from different opioids are different and have different levels of severity. It also depends on how much one takes and for how long. If someone is used to taking a high dose of a strong opioid (like heroin, methadone, fentanyl, etc) for a long period of time, then a weak opioid is not likely to give them much relief. Tramadol can be helpful for some people though, and the serotonergic effects might be helpful as well as the opioid effects.

which actually brings up an interesting point... i have been wondering lately if my (all too often) MDMA usage has been helping my taper.... i dont crash after rolling like alot of people but rather have a general sense of well being for a few days after... and of course the last thing i would recommend is anyone attempting to 'roll' their way through precipitated WD's, lol...

but there may be something going on with the elevated serotonin levels helping diminish PAWS symptoms..

 

[roundnround]

which actually brings up an interesting point... i have been wondering lately if my (all too often) MDMA usage has been helping my taper.... i dont crash after rolling like alot of people but rather have a general sense of well being for a few days after... and of course the last thing i would recommend is anyone attempting to 'roll' their way through precipitated WD's, lol...

but there may be something going on with the elevated serotonin levels helping diminish PAWS symptoms..

that would b a hot fuckin mess

 

[roundnround]

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying, you are saying you "disagree that tramadol is an opiate"? Like you don't believe it's an opiate? Or did you mean to say the reverse? Technically opioid is a better term, since it refers to natural, semi-synthetic and synthetic opiates. Tramadol is a weak opioid but it also induces serotonin release, and inhibits the reuptake of norepinephrine. You are correct that withdrawals from different opioids are different and have different levels of severity. It also depends on how much one takes and for how long. If someone is used to taking a high dose of a strong opioid (like heroin, methadone, fentanyl, etc) for a long period of time, then a weak opioid is not likely to give them much relief. Tramadol can be helpful for some people though, and the serotonergic effects might be helpful as well as the opioid effects.

ya i dont even know what i meant really i think i meant a non narcotic opiod agonist or something.. but it has zero recreational use and i think a lot of people get confused over that.. i also think it will end up off the market in the future due to seizures and it seems that even the medical people cant even say exactly how it works in the 1st place... for example if we are talking weak opiates tramadol helps my withdrawls where as vicodin and codeine def do not at all... i dont think its the opiod factor that does anything i think its the other mysterious tricks it does that they havent even pin pointed yet.. lol that probably didnt come out right either

 

[roundnround]

Yes. I'm sure.

what was your tramadol intake for the day?

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Standard tramadol protocol. 100mg's 4 times a day. Though like I said, after that was having no effect..twice a day they would double my dose. Still nothing. Thank god for the valium they were giving me and the clonidine or I wouldn't have made it. Tramadol is some weak shit. I'll never go to another detox that gives that again. Matter of fact, I wont go to any detox on such a huge habit because even the place I was at before, which gave 20mg's of methadone the first day didn't do jack shit.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

which actually brings up an interesting point... i have been wondering lately if my (all too often) MDMA usage has been helping my taper.... i dont crash after rolling like alot of people but rather have a general sense of well being for a few days after... and of course the last thing i would recommend is anyone attempting to 'roll' their way through precipitated WD's, lol...

but there may be something going on with the elevated serotonin levels helping diminish PAWS symptoms..

Yeah, it does help. That's part of the reason a lot of people replace a heroin addiction with a MDMA or meth or coke addiction. Not a good idea of course, but I've done it before. The problem is you can just end up replacing one addiction with another, which depending on what drug it is and how you use it may not even be much better for you. And if you don't work on your mental addiction and on the reasons you use in the first place, if you then try to stop whatever drug you've replaced the opioid with it's very easy to just go back to using opioids again (which I have also done). But with certain serotonergic drugs used in a controlled fashion (for example certain antihistamines, antidepressants, psychedelics - NOT something like smoking meth ) they can be helpful as part of a taper plan or for coping with WDS/PAWS.

 

[macd610]

im on day 3 of cold turkey from 150mg (10/15mg) roxi's a day and i feel fine.. i LOVE tramadol popped some codeine i had laying around but i def didn't need to... mac have you tried tramadol for wd... its wonderful imo

Round,
Sorry for the late response. Decided to skim through this thread again since I haven't looked at it for a while and noticed your question.
Honestly, I have not tried tramadol (sp?) for withdrawals. A friend of mine absolutely loves it and takes it all the time and a long time ago I tried it and felt absolutely nothing... no pain relief or anything else for that matter.
I could be wrong, but I'm thinking it probably wouldn't do much for me considering I'm on some pretty strong meds (Fentanyl & oxycodone ir ).
I was thinking about this topic this morning and that's why I decided to check it out....
Like I'm sure has been mentioned, I'm really noticing that for me there is definitely a level of stress involved before even running out. I know for a fact that I will either be out before I get my next prescription for fentanyl or REALLY close to it. and if I don't completely run out I'm going to be pretty uncomfortable anyway because I'm really going to have to stretch it.
Anyway, this is gonna sound bad, but ever since I realized this I have been really messed up mentally. Some mornings, before I'm even fully awake it comes into my mind.... then I have a couple of minutes of sheer panic.
So after reflecting upon this all morning I'm thinking this...certainly, there is a psychological element involved here. But NOT in the withdrawal itself. I mean, of COURSE it's distressing and upsetting to know I will be out. Just like it will be when I actually do run out. But I don't think that the emotional side has anything to do with the physical phenomena that occurs when in the throws of withdrawals.
This may be an extreme example, but here goes: If someone find out they have some sort of horrible painful disease, they are going to be upset emotionally as well. But this does not make the physical pain any less valid. While the 2 things can occur simultaneously, I think that they are 2 completely separate things.
Hope this made sense!!

 

[Choosing_Positive]

Mac, have you tried pregabalin for pain? It really helps me in WD's (specifically relieving RLS pain) and elevates my mood as well.

 

[BlueHues]

^I know different things have different effects from person to person....It just annoys me when somebody who just went through their first time withdrawing from pills comes on here talking like they're the world's foremost expert on opiate withdrawal. I've withdrawn from opiates 10+ times, probably more than that, but at least 10 times in an "actual" detox facility. It's been different every time for me. sometimes it was worse than I thought it would be, sometimes it was easier. Sometimes, the clonidine seemed to help, other times it didn't. It varies a lot. So for these people acting like they know EXACTLY what they're talking about, you don't!

As far as Tramadol goes....
six years ago, I went out west for awhile and brought about 15 8mg subs with me....I was pretty much using subs regularly with a litttle of dabbling with H on the east coast before I went out there. I ended up losing my bottle somehow!(I think it was stolen). In the 4 months after that I got a really bad BTH habit out there. When I came back east I was sick and had no way of getting Suboxones. Somebody gave me a bunch of Ultram. It was these big white time release pills, don remember the milligram...It took away the worst of the WDs and allowed me to sleep...I made it 6 days on those before relapsing and eventually going back on Suboxone.

In summer 2011, the last time I detoxed from opiates, and which Im still clean from now, they would give you two 50s of tramadol at the end of the Suboxone detox if you were still in Wds...It helped me feel a little better for a few hours each dose, but nothing much, So tramadol did something for me both times, but it wasn't great, and its different for everyone!

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

There was plenty of stuff that worked for me in the beginning for a detox that doesn't do shit now. Your withdrawals get worse and worse the longer you continue using and the more times you get clean, relapse, and have to detox again. It's a progressive disease, both mentally and psychically. Looking back in retrospect to my early "kicks"... hah, it's a joke compared to what I go through now.

 

[macd610]

^I know different things have different effects from person to person....It just annoys me when somebody who just went through their first time withdrawing from pills comes on here talking like they're the world's foremost expert on opiate withdrawal. I've withdrawn from opiates 10+ times, probably more than that, but at least 10 times in an "actual" detox facility. It's been different every time for me. sometimes it was worse than I thought it would be, sometimes it was easier. Sometimes, the clonidine seemed to help, other times it didn't. It varies a lot. So for these people acting like they know EXACTLY what they're talking about, you don't!

As far as Tramadol goes....
six years ago, I went out west for awhile and brought about 15 8mg subs with me....I was pretty much using subs regularly with a litttle of dabbling with H on the east coast before I went out there. I ended up losing my bottle somehow!(I think it was stolen). In the 4 months after that I got a really bad BTH habit out there. When I came back east I was sick and had no way of getting Suboxones. Somebody gave me a bunch of Ultram. It was these big white time release pills, don remember the milligram...It took away the worst of the WDs and allowed me to sleep...I made it 6 days on those before relapsing and eventually going back on Suboxone.

In summer 2011, the last time I detoxed from opiates, and which Im still clean from now, they would give you two 50s of tramadol at the end of the Suboxone detox if you were still in Wds...It helped me feel a little better for a few hours each dose, but nothing much, So tramadol did something for me both times, but it wasn't great, and its different for everyone!

I can understand your frustrations that you talked about in your first paragraph. earlier on in this page I saw someone talked about taking lots of pills for 2 weeks and felt nothing in terms of withdrawals.
I guess 1 way to look at it is that clearly this person does not have the experience that many of us unfortunately have had. I don't mean this in a nasty way, but this person (luckily) is ignorant to the pure hell that real wds are. Hopefully they won't find out.
I'm happy to read that you're still clean. As I'm sure you realize, that is no small feat

 

[BlueHues]

No, I mean BL is here to help everyone, I guess...It just seems to me that you have a lot of people trying to dispense advice without the experience to back it up....

I've been mildly addicted to benzos, but never used high doses for years on end...when I stopped, I had some psychological symptoms and rebound sleeplessness and anxiety, but it wasn't that bad.
That doesn't mean I'm gonna go into a benzo WD thread and tell somebody whose been doing 8mgs of xanax daily for ten years that, "when you stop, other than a little sleeplessness and anxiety, you'll be fine!"..
Even though, I probably could tell you a good Benzo taper that you could try, that I learned about it by reading all the other Benzo WD posts on BL, but I'd let somebody whose actually been through it post about it first!!

Not to minimize anybody's opiate habits, or be a snob here....Sure doing 200 mgs of oxy a day for a few months is definitely a lot, and could cause significant WDs, there's worse habits...

the other thing is, once you've been through it a bunch of times, it gets easier to re-addict yourself to opiates....If I did 60 mgs of Oxy for 1 week at this point, I'd go through some pretty bad withdrawal because I've already been physically addicted so many times...but for someone not physically addicted, a week or probably even a month of daily pill use is not gonna give you full blown opiate withdrawals when you stop...

Being dope sick is not cool at all, its a nasty and disgusting state to find yourself in!