Opioids Do you think 90% of your opiate(heroin,oxys,meth,subs) wds are just in your head??

[burn out]

I also think that is very strange (to the guy who said that it takes him three days to get well). In my experience, it can sometimes take me a half hour so after shooting heroin to feel totally well if I was very sick when I did it because my body was jsut so out of wack that it cant instantly go back to normal. But three days? How can that be?

 

[macd610]

I find it strange that it takes days of you consecutively taking your medicine to get rid of the withdrawals(unless it's suboxone).

My DOC was IV heroin, and the sickness instantly when away when I used... only to come right back the next day! lol

It seems like being addicted to opiates is having two addictions at the same time, the mental and the physical. It took me significantly less drugs to supress the withdrawal symptoms, than it did for me to get high.

In a given day, I would never be happy with just enough to "get well" and would continue to do whatever I needed to do to get enough to actually "feel the dope"......only to have the do the same thing the next day, which really sucked when the only dope around was mediocre!

Of course, over time the amount that I needed to get high became the amount I used to need to stay well and on and on and on.....

Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you're taking a set amount of a prescribed drug everyday, I can understand the dose you're taking not being effective to treat your pain anymore, but I can't see it not being enough to at least keep most of the withdrawals away. My reasonong being that, a therapeutic dose to treat pain should be higher than a dose required to suppress withdrawal symptoms.

With street drugs like heroin, the quality/purity of the drugs can change dramatically from day to day, sometimes causing you to have to pay 1 1/2 times to 2 times as much just to achieve the same effect. that sucks!

If you're in withdrawal for a week every single month and you're not abusing your medication, you should really tell your doctor it's not working for you! I also know a lot of people who are prescribed opiates burn through their script in 2 weeks! I'm not sure what exactly the case is with you.

No, that's not the case with me lol...and I may have unintentionally been misleading, my apologies. I don't run out early every single month. However, when I do run out (it's oxycodone IR approx 240mg/day, btw) it's horrible. What I meant was :
Unlike you (you said you feel better as soon as you know you are soon going to be able to get your DOC..ie, when you are on your way to get it or whatever)- it takes me a few days to REALLY feel back to normal. I'm not saying that I continue to be in withdrawals after I get my prescription. It's more like my expectations get the better of me. When I am in the midst of wd's, I count down the days until I can get my rx filled, thinking that immediately I will feel all better. I definitely DO feel much better and of course I am NOT in withdrawals anymore. I think it's the fact that my body is used to having a certain amount of this substance in my system...and when suddenly there's nothing, we all know what happens. Also, I think alot of it is just the process of recovering from being sick too.
Anyway, yeah, this isn't a monthly thing and my meds do a great job with pain control. Once in awhile I DO run out a bit early, and it always surprises me that it takes a few days to really feel myself again once I have obtained my rx.
I hope I have explained it better and not made it even more confusing lol. Have a great night.

 

[burn out]

I still think thats odd. How far into withdrawals are you when you dose? Like I said, I can agree that the relief isn't always instant but three days? For me, I go from sick as a dog to 85% better within a minute of shooting up and then after an hour or to I am 100% better.

 

[tokenname]

No, that's not the case with me lol...and I may have unintentionally been misleading, my apologies. I don't run out early every single month. However, when I do run out (it's oxycodone IR approx 240mg/day, btw) it's horrible. What I meant was :
Unlike you (you said you feel better as soon as you know you are soon going to be able to get your DOC..ie, when you are on your way to get it or whatever)- it takes me a few days to REALLY feel back to normal. I'm not saying that I continue to be in withdrawals after I get my prescription. It's more like my expectations get the better of me. When I am in the midst of wd's, I count down the days until I can get my rx filled, thinking that immediately I will feel all better. I definitely DO feel much better and of course I am NOT in withdrawals anymore. I think it's the fact that my body is used to having a certain amount of this substance in my system...and when suddenly there's nothing, we all know what happens. Also, I think alot of it is just the process of recovering from being sick too.
Anyway, yeah, this isn't a monthly thing and my meds do a great job with pain control. Once in awhile I DO run out a bit early, and it always surprises me that it takes a few days to really feel myself again once I have obtained my rx.
I hope I have explained it better and not made it even more confusing lol. Have a great night.

i understand this completely^^.
you're not alone cat..i've felt that before as well.
it is odd.
sometimes things are.

 

[BlueHues]

^No, I understand. I wasn't saying I doubted the truth in what you were saying, it's just that, aside from a few prescriptions for Vics/percs, I've always used opiates recreationally! lol

 

[macd610]

I still think thats odd. How far into withdrawals are you when you dose? Like I said, I can agree that the relief isn't always instant but three days? For me, I go from sick as a dog to 85% better within a minute of shooting up and then after an hour or to I am 100% better.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but you mentioned shooting up...Keep in mind I have NOTHING against that, but it's not something I have ever done. I assume that ROA hits alot harder and faster than taking pain meds by mouth?
In addition, while I realize I am physically dependent on my meds, I take them for chronic pain. So when I run out, I have a whole lot of physical pain to deal with on top of the pain of withdrawals...maybe it's just due to the fact that it takes awhile to get the "regular" amount of the drug into my system?
Who knows...again, this is not something that happens all the time. When it does happen though, it's awful.

 

[jeng1128]

I agree with all you guys. I do think"mental" can mean 2 things-that you think you will get sick & therefore you do or the psycholgical aspect of it(i.e.anxiety,depression,insomnia(though I dont't think insomnia is just in your head.) The physical effects as well as the psychological effects are both bad for me. Like that 2week period where most of your phisical symtoms subside(mostly) the psychological effects can be just as bad in a different way. I remember my first time ct iv heroin & my parents basically(litterally) locked me in my room for two weeks. My dad slept at the end of the stairs so I couldnt sneak out at night),there were times they lieterally physically hold me down so I wouldnt leave. I remember my parents just thought I snorted heroin,&I think it was day 3....I went up to my hiding spot got my rigs & screamed "Look your daughters a junkie...see these needles Ive been using them all along"-hoping they would kick me out...they didnt but thats crazy. After 2 weeks they decided to let me go to a na meeting where I was so depressed all I could think about was heroin....I called my bf told him to pick me up and bring me to Hartford to get a bundle.
He did 3 bags said it was garbage so I did 2. I missed & like 15 mins later I was like pull over & I remember getting out of the car & the next thing I remember was waking up in the hospital bc I oded. My parents obv learned the way they did it didnt work(they didnt know any better) but even when I felt phisically better the first chance I got I went to get heroin.
Anyways I do feel some is just mental-like I wake up at 2 & think Im so sick but as soon as Im on my way to the meth clinic Im Ok. Or Im sure weve all been through "were so sick but as soon as we get it in our hands b4 we even do it we feel better." I wonder if thats from somthing else like you get so excited your body produces somthing? Bc to this day(I havnt done coke/crack in over 2 years,my stomach still turns when I see it on tv ir I read some post about someone smoking crack & I literally have to stop reading it bc I crave it so bad.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

What does "all in your head" mean??

The brain is a physical part of the body and controls the body. Any pain is technically "all in your head". I do NOT like the phrase "all in your head" as it is dismissive and implies that one can control withdrawals or just choose not to feel them. The psychological aspects are a big part of what makes WD so difficult, the body stuff wouldn't be quite so hard to bear if you felt fine mentally. But that does not mean the psychological aspects they do not have a real physical cause from changes in the brain or that you can just will them away. Or that the physical symptoms are not real and observable. Psychological factors such as mindset, social support, hypnotic suggestion, excitement, humour, or distraction have been proven to be able to significantly modulate pain's intensity or unpleasantness, but it's definitely not as simple as just choosing not to feel miserable.

 

[burn out]

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but you mentioned shooting up...Keep in mind I have NOTHING against that, but it's not something I have ever done. I assume that ROA hits alot harder and faster than taking pain meds by mouth?
In addition, while I realize I am physically dependent on my meds, I take them for chronic pain. So when I run out, I have a whole lot of physical pain to deal with on top of the pain of withdrawals...maybe it's just due to the fact that it takes awhile to get the "regular" amount of the drug into my system?
Who knows...again, this is not something that happens all the time. When it does happen though, it's awful.

Certainly shooting up hits harder and faster, but even oral dosing should kick in within 3-4 hours and take care of wd

 

[burn out]

What does "all in your head" mean??

The brain is a physical part of the body and controls the body. Any pain is technically "all in your head". I do NOT like the phrase "all in your head" as it is dismissive and implies that one can control withdrawals or just choose not to feel them. The psychological aspects are a big part of what makes WD so difficult, the body stuff wouldn't be quite so hard to bear if you felt fine mentally. But that does not mean the psychological aspects they do not have a real physical cause from changes in the brain or that you can just will them away. Or that the physical symptoms are not real and observable. Psychological factors such as mindset, social support, hypnotic suggestion, excitement, humour, or distraction have been proven to be able to significantly modulate pain's intensity or unpleasantness, but it's definitely not as simple as just choosing not to feel miserable.

I take all in your head to mean something psychological, as in something you could avoid if you thought differently. Opiate withdrawal definitely does not fit that definition. Of course as you said, how respond can modulate the pain a great deal.

 

[argentina420]

I think once you actually go through withdrawal or at least no what's gonna happen it could somewhat be in your head. Cuz at that point you have a FEAR of it (or at least everyone ik does lol). First time I went through withdrawal I didn't know much about it and it was Hell. Withdrawals real lol. It's like going to the doctors when ur a kid to get shots. After u know its gonna hurt, u freak urself out and it hurts worse. But no idthink 90%. That's absurd lol

 

[Cane2theLeft]

I'm not sure I agree entirely with the notion that worsening withdrawals over time are entirely a conditioned response. I suspect there is another physical mechanism also involved in that. Kindling probably. It's not just that we come to fear withdrawal more and so it feels worse because of our anxiety. ( Cane, apologies if that's a misreading! ) Having said that there is definitely a large psychological component to the intensity of symptoms experienced and anxiety certainly feeds into that.

...

My belief is that anxiety about how bad symptoms are gonna be, and anxiety about that whole score / don't score thing ramps up the noradrenaline levels. Since one of the causes of some of the symptoms associated with opiate withdrawal is posited to be the rebound overproduction of noradrenaline giving the sudden absence of opiates which previously suppressed noradrenaline production in the locus coeruleus, anything which further kicks up noradrenaline levels, like for example the flight or fight response to stress will tend to make those symptoms worse. That is, objectively worse. It's not purely subjective. It's a physical mechanism, the same mechanism that clonidine and lofexidine are designed to treat by suppression of noradrenaline production. This makes massive sense to me.

I think this is spot on.

I misspoke if I implied the ONLY reason that withdrawals become disproportionately worse over time is conditioning; I think that just plays a part in this phenomenon.

Norepinephrine (or noradrenaline if you prefer) plays a tremendous role for a variety of reasons. As you aptly pointed out, withdrawal jacks up the norepinephrine levels. Acute stress/anxiety likewise jacks up NE as it's one of the key neurotransmitters involved in the neurological stress-response. So people become anxious KNOWING they are going to withdraw even before the first time which increases the stress-response including increased NE levels; the withdrawal itself further causes NE levels to rise; KNOWING how bad withdrawal was/is going to become creates even more stress going into subsequent withdrawals and over time this conditions people to fear withdrawals even worse causing the physical symptoms themselves to worsen.

There is a very large influence of psychological processes on the severity of withdrawal (especially over time) but this isn't independent of the physical processes occurring. In fact, these processes are inextricably intertwined.

Thank you for adding that bit, sepher. I was negligent in focusing so heavily on the aspect of conditioning in this. I wanted to discuss some of the psychological aspects at work that are not often discussed but it painted an inaccurate picture by not placing it in the context of the neurobiology at play.

 

[Sex Panther]

short answer, fuck no. if i may..."

“It is possible to detach yourself from most pain-injury to teeth, eyes, and genitals present special difficulties-so that the pain is experienced as neutral excitation. From junk sickness there seems to be no escape. Junk sickness is the reverse side of junk kick. The kick of junk is that you have to have it. Junkies run on junk time and junk metabolism. They are subject to junk climate. They are warmed and chilled by junk. The kick of junk is living under junk conditions. You cannot escape from junk sickness any more than you can escape from junk kick after a shot.”

OP, i understand your premise. there is certain behavioural and psychological phenomena present in drug-taking, including withdrawal. Dopamine levels in test subjects surged in mere anticipation of having a nice, fat shot, moreso when they were hanging out, to a level that was biologically significant when compared to levels of Dopamine after the shot itself.

BUT, if i recall my elementary chemistry and layman's pharmacology, physical withdrawal is a real, quantifiable over-excitation of nerve function, in addition to other physical symptoms, which arise due to the withdrawal of a chemical which has saturated and depressed these functions.

Rebound symptoms work similarly with nearly all drugs. Its not as simple as that, i'm sure other 'lighters could explain it much better than I.
Intuition tells me that this rebound of physical activity beyond homeostasis, is due to physical dependence on a drug causes the brain to depress, or reduce, certain neurotransmitter activity because of the pharmacological pathways of the drug.

what I mean to say is, for example in the case of amps, your brain thinks, shit nigga, why do I have to keep pumping out all these reuptake inhibitors when this motherfucker right here is filling me up with them 6 times a day?

so the fact that one has caused a dysregulation of neurotransmitter activity means that, when the drug is taken away, there is a deficit of that chemical in the brain. For example, if L-DOPA levels, and subsequently dopamine blood levels are lower than in homeostasis, then the biological tasks which are dependant on that chemical, will be less effective. The bigger the habit, the less effectively your brain can handle these tasks. in the case of Dopamine, which is responsible for regulating the firing of synapses, withdrawal will manifest itself in over-excitation of these synapses because of the aforementioned deficit.

long story short, drugs are bad mkay

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>proceeds to bang 50mg of ritalin with a blunt as fuck 25 gauge needle, prepped with unsterile works and no micron filter

jeez, the life we choose, huh?

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Conditioning is a factor and explains things like why just preparing to do some drugs can make people feel a bit better, or being in a room where you are used to always feeling sick can make you feel more sick, or being in an unfamiliar place can make someone overdose on their usual amount of drugs (this is actually a studied and frequent occurrence), but conditioning is not something you can control. Your brain is causing it. "All in your head" implies you have control over it and could just choose not to feel that way.

And, as I said in another thread, conditioning obviously does not explain all withdrawal symptoms because opioid dependence/withdrawal causes scientifically detectable changes to the brain/body and obviously people get withdrawal symptoms when they have never experienced them before. Or have never even heard of them before. Like one guy who was given an opioid for pain, wasn't told it was dependence-causing by anyone, and when he stopped taking it because his injuries had healed he had no idea why he was so sick. He thought he must have some really horrible flu or something. Only when he described his symptoms to a friend who recognized it was opioid withdrawal did he realize what was causing it.

 

[macd610]

Wow, Cane,Sepher , SwimmingDancer, and everyone else...I never understood all this complicated (for me, anyway stuff behind withdrawal, and it's been really interesting for me to read about all this stuff.....norepinepherine (sp?), fight or flight, conditioning, etc...( I apologize for my ignorance.)
Like I have said, I find that if I go through wd's I take a few days to return to normal once I get my rx. I definitely feel MUCH better, and I have had a hard time putting how I feel those first few days back on my meds into words. It's almost comparable to a hangover of sorts.
It's not as though I'm still sick from being out, but I also absolutely cannot say that as soon as I take my meds I'm all better. For a few days I am tired, a bit light headed, headachy, and generally out of my element all around.
Quite a few of our fellow Bluelighters feel that this is pretty strange ...can anyone think of any possible reasons for this? I guess I sort of assumed everybody went through this, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I am pretty curious about what maybe causing this and welcome any ideas.
Thanks!

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^ you are using (at least primarily) therapeutically so when your meds usually bring you to normal and you are far below where you usually reside sans medications from days of torture, they are not enough to get you to feeling right.

People who use much larger amounts recreationally can easily take a large amount and feel great from it. When I used strictly therapeutically, I felt the same as you for a couple days when I returned to taking opioids. When I was using recreationally on top of the therapeutic use, I could take a large dose and feel pretty great instantly after being sick for a few days.

I speculate the above explains why you experience what you do but obviously I can't be certain.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

It's not as though I'm still sick from being out, but I also absolutely cannot say that as soon as I take my meds I'm all better. For a few days I am tired, a bit light headed, headachy, and generally out of my element all around.
Quite a few of our fellow Bluelighters feel that this is pretty strange ...can anyone think of any possible reasons for this? I guess I sort of assumed everybody went through this, but it doesn't seem to be the case. I am pretty curious about what maybe causing this and welcome any ideas.
Thanks!

I don't think it's THAT unusual, I think it's pretty common with pills. For people injecting opioids it's different, because the drug hits you instantly and you feel better right away. Or someone using opioids recreationally might just take a higher dose and be ok. When dependent on prescribed pills with a set dosing regimen I find the longer you go without taking them, the longer it takes for your usual dosing regimen to fully straighten you out. This especially happens with ER or long-acting meds. For example, with methadone, it takes about 5-8 days for the levels to stabilize. So if I am used to that stabilized dose, then I don't take methadone for a few days, then I take my regular dose, it does not bring the levels in my body back up to where they are used to being and I don't feel completely well until after few days of taking it. I could get around this by taking more than usual on the first day or two. If you are taking oxycodone IR for pain and taking a set dose multiple times a day, it should take around 2-4 days to stabilize (according to some studies I looked at). But it probably varies from person to person, depends on the dosage and frequency, etc.

 

[Sex Panther]

It takes at least three months’ shooting twice a day to get any habit at all.

shit go. i think i'd prefer an oral opi addiction to a IV one anytime, despite longer withdrawals.

 

[macd610]

Thanks Cane and SwimmingD, I appreciate your input and it makes perfect sense.However, it's gonna be difficult to stop myself from taking a giant dose in order to feel better more quickly in the future
No, seriously I'm sure that'd bring about its own set of problems.
I was thinking something along the same lines as you guys, but wasn't sure. Thanks again.

 

[Archer]

My first post (other than introduction) since this hit home. I have run out of meds twice (did not plan for holidays that pharmacy was closed and got caught) and did not have extra. (Have since got into the habit of stashing a few away every "good day" so I have a surplus.)

That said, suffering from toasted 4 lumbars, shredded rotator cuffs, torn flexor tendon, massive arthritic and inflamation issues and more I get regular steriod injections, epidurals and am currently running 5) 10/325 percs, 3) 250 Soma's and a 1 or 2 Tizanadine a day. I have been on ever increaseing doses of opiates for 5 years (slow conservative incrimental uptick from my pain doc) I can tell if I am 1 hour past time to take meds even if I have no clock around, starts with increaseing pain, then the weakness and shakes start, then irritability. If I run completely dry and go 8 to 12 hours, I am on the floor racked with pain, sweating and chills, headache, cant eat, etc. When I get my meds usually I begin feeling better withon an hour especially if I chop up the meds. The first time it happened I had no expectations about the result, I just chugged some advil and hopped for the best because it wasent a super bad pain day, in hindsight I would have went to the ER, because by the time I was in full withdrawl I could not drive safely. The wife was out of town, she came back to find me on the living room floor in a ball and we rode it out until the Rx opened.

So, I call bullshit on the idea that WD is mostly mental. I dont know about recreational use or other drugs but in my case with opiates and muscle relaxants I felt like I had been in a baseball bat fight and I was the only one without a bat. I just had surgery to remove a tumor the size of a Tangerine off my spine on Wed and I walked out of the hospital afterward, I am still pretty sore and the percs help a little, but I sure would like some more fentnyl and dilaudid the gave me in recovery. (the wonder drug that works wonders)

I now pay very close attention to the clock, my pill count and the calender, dependency sucks but pain sucks worse. Thats my 2 cents.

Archer