Do you prefer lies or the harsh truth?

[birdup.snaildown]

Do you prefer lies or the harsh truth?​

I'm a strong believer in the latter. I always want to hear what people have to say, especially when they're holding back because they might offend me. Out of a misguided sense of respect, I used to treat others this way. (In other words, I used to tell them what I thought they needed to hear.) I'm still struggling with it a bit, but I definitely lie to people in certain situations.

Kids and people who are severely disabled need to be lied to sometimes, although I wonder if that's because they've been conditioned like that. (I have to admit, with children, it's difficult not to lie sometimes.)

I work with an autistic guy currently who gets treated like a little child because it's easier to do that. It's easier because he's less likely to be triggered if you careful manoeuvre the trial and error gauntlet that we've created over time to avoid his triggers. I do it too. At this point, with him, it has to be done this way... With others, I'm not so sure.

I've always been horrified by the fear of what people aren't saying to my face. It is probably this crippling anxiety that makes me desperate to know the truth, but that (in turn) makes me more awkward socially... so: the more I try to understand what it is they are saying in the first place = me assuming they're saying even worse things.

Society (and, to a lesser extent this forum) is moderated around etiquette. Etiquette, for me, doesn't equate with niceness. It's almost the opposite way round.

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything," just means people talk shit behind our backs. The negative feelings are still there.

I prefer to know who my enemies are. Etiquette (and copious amounts of psychedelic drugs) have made me paranoid about whether or not even my family/friends like me.

It was my sister-in-law's 40th birthday the other day. She's okay. I don't hate her, but we don't get along and we never have. My mother was calling me up over and over again to remind me to call her... Why?

Why should my sis pretend for the rest of her life that she wants me to call... and why should I pretend until the day I day that I want to call? So, anyway, I sent her a message. I didn't bother making it personal. It was very, very generic message from my family to hers.

I pity people with big families. I hardly have any blood relatives within 1,000 kilometres. To some extent, I like it that way... but every fucking year I have to send so many messages and make so many phone calls.

I don't want to get fifty calls on my birthday and I'm sure you don't either. I fucking hate etiquette and obligation. Family (particularly when it applies to in-laws) is basically just racism. I don't care more about someone because they're related to me any more than I care more about someone because they have the same colour skin... or because they happen to be related to someone I love. I love them, not their cousin.

Why can't I just be honest about this without being an asshole?

My wife has a big family, particularly on her father's side, and I don't have a lot of days off. So, I just don't want to do the obligatory calls and go to all the Christmas lunches and what not. I fucking hate them so much. There's just a bunch of people (who don't want to be there) pretending for the sake of other people (who also don't want to be there) in the name of tradition.

Tradition is like religion without faith.

How much of my life has to be devoted to a never-ending series of meaningless events?

My first marriage was an Indian ceremony. There were hundreds of people there. It went for three days. The majority of the congregation was Hindu. There was literally not a single practicing Hindu among them. They put fruit down in clay bowls in temples every week as a "sacrifice" but they did it as tradition not religion. They do this because they are part of a formerly-spiritual community and they don't want to upset their elders, who also didn't believe.

Why do the elders keep doing it?

Because they don't know that nobody cares anymore!

God knows how long this has been going on.

In Australia, when there are parked cars in a narrow road and somebody "lets you pass" you're expected to give them a wave of gratitude. It took me along time of stubbornly refusing and arguing about this before I finally gave in. Now I do the Hitler salute.

The stupid thing is, we're (very selectively) thanking people for not breaking the road rules. Common sense dictates that you should stop and let someone pass if there is a parked car on your side of the road. Otherwise you'll be involved in a head on collision and I doubt your insurance company will cover it since you're driving towards incoming fucking traffic... But, NO! People need to be thanked for not being assholes these days.

Maybe it has always been like this.

I don't see a big difference between this bullshit paper thin veil of roadside civility and the name calling and virtue signalling that exists in this website (and everywhere else in society).

I'm not a fan (in principle) of falsely inflating people's egos. If anyone reading this (assuming that anybody does) would like to say something about me - totally unfiltered - this is your chance. I give the mods my blessing to ignore the BLUA as it pertains to my rights as a contributor in this thread. If you don't like me, I'd like to know why because then (maybe) I can improve myself.

Thanks in advance.

|||Question Time|||

1. Do you like to tell it like it is?

2. Do you like to hear it like it is?

3. What would the world be like if everybody told the truth?

4. Is it better to be ignorant?


...



TL;DR

You have my full permission in this thread to say whatever you like to me. May the BLUA be damned. Fuck etiquette. We are all big boys and girls. Tell me what you really think @dalpat077. I can take it.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Responding to your DM, @Atelier3.

Outright abuse language directed at you needs be be modded lest it cause a precedent in the forum. FOr example if someone says “bird you are a stupid c*^t” - we can’t let that stand.

Thanks for the response.

Calling me a stupid c-word is fine by me, but I understand why that's over the line. So: if anyone wants to criticize me (I won't bite back), try to do it in a way that keeps this thread alive if possible.

@Atelier3 (again responding to your DM):

You don't have to shy around the psychological stuff. I value your feedback more than a psychologist. I definitely have a lot of insecurity issues (among many other problems) but I've done terrible things and I've hurt people so it makes sense they exist. Since then, though, I've made a lot of progress working through the guilt and the shame. I don't talk about it much but my life has been really tragic and painful at times. I know that doesn't make me unique, especially around here, but I think I've gotten to a point now where I can face my demons.

I've always found feedback invaluable, even when I don't react perfectly to it. You said a while back that I was emotionally invested in threads, despite my insistence otherwise. This (for example) has resonated and helped me long-term. I know I am a very emotional person, I've just been numbed by drugs and trauma... and I don't like showing weakness because of stubborn pride... but I also don't want to be numb any more.

At one point my shell was necessary.
Now, I'd like to try and emerge warts and all.

I promise that I will not react negatively to any criticisms on that thread. I was going to post it in the Lounge, but I figured people would be more likely to troll me than be honest with me.

I don't know if you're familiar with this book, but - for a long time now - I've wanted to face that mirror from The Never Ending Story. The one that reveals your true self. It always fascinated me, because (even as a child) I had a wildly distorted and depressive self-image.

I created that image - I think - as a place to hide.
Now, I don't want to hide any more.
Now: I want to know the truth.

 

[alasdairm]

Why should my sis pretend for the rest of her life that she wants me to call... and why should I pretend until the day I day that I want to call? So, anyway, I sent her a message. I didn't bother making it personal. It was very, very generic message from my family to hers.

i feel, at least in part, that you've answered your own question here.

i could guess at the psychology behind your decision to do something you really didn't want to do but you know better than i do.

you obviously didn't want to contact your sister and yet you went ahead and did it anyway. why?

alasdair

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Hi @alasdairm. I just sent you a DM before reading your post on this thread. Synchronicity?

She's my sister-in-law, but (yeah) she's basically my sister. She's not going anywhere... Honestly, I did it because my mother (and my nephew) pressured me into doing it. I knew it was her birthday.

But I still feel guilty for sending a message instead of calling, despite the fact that neither of us want to speak to each other. I don't know. The whole thing is super weird and awkward to me. It's my Grandma's 93rd birthday today and I can't call her because I'm too high. I will call her tomorrow, but even then it feels forced. I'd rather call her when it's not her birthday.

Every time I get a phone call on my birthday from some distant relative it's just like "Okay, here we go." These days, I don't answer the phone most of the time, which makes me feel like a right asshole.

I've tried reaching out to people. I did endless video calls with uncles and cousins and shit during the COVID lockdown, but I hated every second of it. Forced small talk (even with people I like) is excruciatingly uncomfortable for me. I always beat myself up about this, but I suspect everybody is in the same boat... That's why I made this thread.

@alasdairm: you didn't complete Question Time! How do you feel about obligation and etiquette? Do you like to hear unfiltered inconvenient truths or are you an ignorance is bliss man?

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I had a thought.

If you want to say something to me that might be deemed too offensive to bypass the heavy hand of the law, send me a private message.

Whatever you say to me will remain 100% confidential.
I will not report it. I promise on the life of my daughter.

 

[dalpat077]

I'm more curious to know why I didn't receive a notification that I'd been mentioned in a post!

This, my friend, is a very good topic. And I shall respond shortly after I have perused your initial posts once again, written a few drafts, proof read the same, you know the story.

In the meantime: I've absolutely no idea why you would think that I've anything nasty to say or anything to say to you that I've not already said in public here. Just saying.

 

[birdup.snaildown]

I've absolutely no idea why you would think that I've anything nasty to say or anything to say to you that I've not already said in public here.

You're probably the most roundabout person on this website. You can allude to seriously disturbing shit while somehow getting heart emojis!

Frankly, I don't know how you do it.

Ever consider a career in politics?

 

[TripSitterNZ]

i want the cold harsh truth i also no longer give a fuck and i simply call out anybody who talks badly about anybody infront of me and then cut them off. I had to cut this girl off man who i was getting feelings for but she turned out to be fake and a snake and all she did was bad mouth others all day i been with at toxic person in the past and then she turned out to be a hoe anyway using me. I could see through it all when i was on 3 tabs. But still did gave some doubt to my beliefs before it came full circle. was mad and depressed for a few weeks but im over it now.

Fake people who talk behind people and bad mouth them while fake to them infront of them ffuck them all man its another form of bullying. I Dont fuck with any type of bullying it triggers my ptsd so bad when people come to me and bad mouth a friend ill tell them to shut the fuck up stop been a coward if you have a problem with how somebody acts go to their face and btw fuck off cause im done with yall fake ass and i will be telling them what you said anyway.

NZ is a fucked society you live here aswell everybody is cowards man thats why i prefer hanging out with my hood mates cause they are real and never once do i hear them bad mouthing anybody cause we all struggling and trying to just get by in life. but yup most of society is two face spineless cowards. But im over it.

 

[alasdairm]

@alasdairm: you didn't complete Question Time! How do you feel about obligation and etiquette? Do you like to hear unfiltered inconvenient truths or are you an ignorance is bliss man?

i prefer to tell and hear the truth.

but i also think there's something of a false dilemma in the question "lies or the harsh truth". it's just the truth. why didn't you just write "lies or the truth?"

there's what we say and how we say it. the truth can also be delivered empathetically.

alasdair

 

[birdup.snaildown]

Yeah, I have a tendency to deliver (what I believe to be) the truth harsher than necessary... but the truth - by nature - is often harsher than the lies we design to appease ourselves. It occurs to me that I should compensate for this and actively try to be more sensitive. I've learnt this much, already, from private messages prompted by the creation of this thread. A lot of the time (I think) we just need people to confirm stuff we already know.

 

[dalpat077]

Hey.

Before I even go any further (and this seems to be a trend that's developing here of late and I'm going to start a thread about it in STH if it happens again here or anywhere else).

If somebody sends a PM it is OFF LIMITS no matter WHAT the content! Members should not even be mentioning that they've been sent a PM by another member let alone quoting from it. That is proper forum etiquette (where I come from anyway). Not to mention an unwritten and tacit agreement between gentlemen.

The one and only exception to the above is if the members concerned have given their explicit permission to disclose PM contact and content.

Only other exception is where a PM is offensive, or threatening, or could be construed as stalking, and it's reported to a moderator or administrator via PM.

Trust me when I tell you that the ramifications of not taking my advice and ignoring the above advice can be dire.

And this not off topic seeing as we're going to end up discussing etiquette on this thread at some point.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

i learnt the tough way man been sensitive will only let you get walked over all in life you have to take your mentality to the next level walk over the world else people will walk over you.

 

[dalpat077]

there's what we say and how we say it. the truth can also be delivered empathetically.

I'm just working my up the thread now. But the above I agree with.

I've noted this many times over around these parts i.e. there are ways of saying things to people. Even if you don't like them and even if you don't agree with them: there are ways to convey such message without being derogatory or outright rude. That doesn't mean to not be direct though or beat about the bush. But, for example, there's a big difference between saying to somebody "I really don't like you and I honestly don't believe that you've done your due diligence on a topic and are therefore not qualified to be making your statements" and "You're a total fuck up, don't know what you're talking about and are talking absolute shit, so fuck off".

 

[dalpat077]

Private messages between two people is just that, private. If someone wants to disclose that conversation and/or any part of it needs to get an OK from the other people/person involved, otherwise that’s a complete betrayal of the whole concept of why private messages work.

General forums are public, private messages are not. If anyone has disclosed anything private that was brought to the public forums should report it to staff immediately.

That’s the rules here and on every other public forum that I know about. Also, if you betray someone’s trust you are a real piece of shit. Rules of etiquette apply both online as well as in person.

read BLUA that outline me the rules here.

Yeah. Not to belabor the point. But I've seen it happening here of late just a tad too often.

The ramifications are far reaching particularly on a site such as this and from a harm reduction and trust point of view (I'm not even talking about discussing nefarious activities or intentions or shit like that).

Somebody trusts another member and while under the influence, for example, reaches out privately for help or support, then at some future point there's a public altercation or spat for whatever reason, and the other member hints at the contents of the PM's publicly as a defense. Next time: that same somebody may need help again and the other member may have been the only person that they figured they could trust and doesn't reach out again. You get the picture.

It's not happened to me here (yet). But it's made me extremely wary I'll tell you.

 

[JessFR]

i prefer to tell and hear the truth.

but i also think there's something of a false dilemma in the question "lies or the harsh truth". it's just the truth. why didn't you just write "lies or the truth?"

there's what we say and how we say it. the truth can also be delivered empathetically.

alasdair

Yeah, Generally I much prefer the truth.

If someone asks me a straight question and I think they might not like the answer, I'll give my honest answer, but I'll likely provide it in the most positive way I can while being consistent with the truth.

If I just outright give an answer and it's an entirely positive answer, it's cause it's what I think. I'll give a somewhat sugar coated negative answer, but I won't just lie. Not unless maybe I thought the person actually legitimately wanted me to tell them what they want to hear.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Re: Tradition

My family isn't religious however we typically had traditional Christmas gatherings most every year and everyone was "expected" (as you say OP) to give presents and an equal amount to everyone. This quickly became a holiday for capitalism, and less about a holiday for family. A few years ago we collectively decided to stop doing Xmas gifts all together. We were able to come to this decision by being honest with each other and talking about how feel about each other.

Re: Harsh Truth vs Truth

The truth is not only hard to swallow, but it's hard to tell/give as well. In person, this is incredibly obvious for me at least (I'm not a people person). I find it easier to tell the hard truth on the internet because it lends itself naturally anyway. The pitfall with telling the hard truth on the internet is that it can often times make you look overly judgmental (and I am). In person, it takes a lot of time for me to open up and be honest or attempt to trust someone else. A lack of trust can be healthy (self preservation) but it's important to not completely let go of your childhood innocence. Life is beautiful and should be looked at with trusting eyes as much as possible.

When we sugar coat things to the point of it being a lie, how often is it that we are simply trying to convince ourselves and not the other person? I feel like most of our personal battles are just that; personal.

 

[alasdairm]

^ not only that but, when you sugar-coat something in an effort to try to "spare somebody's feelings" (or whatever) you are coopting the person's agency to a degree.

a wise person once told me: show up. tell the truth. don't get attached to the outcome.

alasdair

 

[assclass]

Gimmie the truth.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Private messages between two people is just that, private. If someone wants to disclose that conversation and/or any part of it needs to get an OK from the other people/person involved, otherwise that’s a complete betrayal of the whole concept of why private messages work.

General forums are public, private messages are not. If anyone has disclosed anything private that was brought to the public forums should report it to staff immediately.

That’s the rules here and on every other public forum that I know about. Also, if you betray someone’s trust you are a real piece of shit. Rules of etiquette apply both online as well as in person.

read BLUA that outlines the rules here.

You’ll now that in post #2 OP has quoted in the thread a PM I sent to him. A PM I presumed was private. Not that it is a big deal or anything particularly or necessarily private. But there it is....not that I have a problem with it really, just surprised given half the subsequent is given over to PM’s being private (LOL)

 

[dalpat077]

You’ll now that in post #2 OP has quoted in the thread a PM I sent to him. A PM I presumed was private. Not that it is a big deal or anything particularly or necessarily private. But there it is....not that I have a problem with it really, just surprised given half the subsequent is given over to PM’s being private (LOL)

Well for what it's worth:

I posted a L-O-N-G dissertation on the ACTUAL topic the other day. But by the end of page 13 I figured I was oversharing, had gone way off-topic, and nobody was going to read the shit anyway.

Maybe I'll revisit the actual topic soon and try keep it down to a dull, and readable, roar.

Harsh truth though: I hate it when people start threads on serious topics and then do a disappearing act! Mind you and as you say: half the subsequent has been given over to the sanctity of PM's. There's no denying that was my fault but felt it needed to be said although, arguably, may have been better placed on its own thread. Point being: it wasn't my intention to rip the OP a new one or chastise them in particular. And I sincerely hope that's not the reason for the thread having stalled.