Do opiates Permanently change your chemical balance in your brain?

[Unknown]

I believe both points bare some truth. I however have to lean more towards 1985 in my case. I know my *personality/depression/reason for doing drugs* is what has led me to quite a large problem with any and all substances. Just the feeling of not wanting to be sober

All of my friends that are really sucessfull in this stage of life, certainly are not abusing any substances. Most people I know that are having a tough time in life, turn to substances for comfort...poor coping skills?? Absolutely. I consider myself to have a fairly weak mentality. How could I let myself get to this point? People like my father, have gone through more hard times, depressing events than I, and don't have to turn to booze/drugs to cope...

I think you explained my point better than I did...lol . This is exactly what I meant. I think there is a root problem that leads to addiction, not just "brain chemistry".

 

[NW-baltiland]

It's damn near impossible to forget the "rush" from any drug you IV.

Fentanyl being the most intense, heroin second, and finally methamphetamine. Snorting anything will not even come close to a good shot of any of those chems.

Definetly not true. I'd go with ketamine>cocaine>heroin for most intense drugs I.V.'d. wait till you do 100mgs of ketamine in a shot. Although you are right about never forgeting the "rush" you get from I.Ving.

 

[iceeslunk]

what worries me man is your bl handle..."opiatesrarely"?
like 6-8 years ago when i first starting dabbling with opiates that could have been my name too...then i would have had to went and changed it to "opiatesallthefuckingtime"

 

[edarrin]

personality/depression/reason for doing drugs*

Aren't you interested in finding the etiology of your personality/depression for doing drugs? Perhaps it is a familial trait, as many 'addictive personalities' or addictions run in families. That would also point to genetics. If you tolok the time to look up epigenetics you would see that it actually shows that the environment does indeed have a role to play. Seems you'd rather sit around with your head up your ass.

The winning comment was poking fun at the two different views. Obviously that one went over it too. (your head that is)

This leads me to the obvious conclusion that a) you aren't interested in a possible alternative etiology
b) you are becoming irritated because you have no plausible arguement to show otherwise.

However, you are entitled to your own opinion.


Anyway I'm done on this topic. I've been working in the feild for almost 20 years. You aren't interested in entertaining an alternative hypothosis so ....


Good luck

 

[Unknown]

Aren't you interested in finding the etiology of your personality/depression for doing drugs? Perhaps it is a familial trait, as many 'addictive personalities' or addictions run in families. That would also point to genetics. If you tolok the time to look up epigenetics you would see that it actually shows that the environment does indeed have a role to play. Seems you'd rather sit around with your head up your ass.

The winning comment was poking fun at the two different views. Obviously that one went over it too. (your head that is)

This leads me to the obvious conclusion that a) you aren't interested in a possible alternative etiology
b) you are becoming irritated because you have no plausible arguement to show otherwise.

However, you are entitled to your own opinion.


Anyway I'm done on this topic. I've been working in the feild for almost 20 years. You aren't interested in entertaining an alternative hypothosis so ....


Good luck

I would have to answer A. Ive had this conversation before, and like I said, I believe addition is more of a cause of ones personality and behavior. I think the person should take responsiblily for their actions and stop blaming other external elements as cause. I think depression can be genetic, but thats something that can be PROVEN! Everyone who is depressed doesn't start using drugs. Its a choice one makes, and I don't believe "genetic" MAKE someone say yes. If your stating this is true, then there is no such thing as free-will. If one deals with their depression, usually drug use isn't an issue.

No one on BL, including myself, wants to hear you spark an argument. I didn't come across as that way, and I don't care to hear it from you either. I don't care if you have 25 + years in this field or not. What I care about is if you have an open mind reguarding this topic or not. This separates the biased people from the wise ones...

 

[KStoner6tb]

Aren't you interested in finding the etiology of your personality/depression for doing drugs? Perhaps it is a familial trait, as many 'addictive personalities' or addictions run in families. That would also point to genetics. If you tolok the time to look up epigenetics you would see that it actually shows that the environment does indeed have a role to play. Seems you'd rather sit around with your head up your ass.

The winning comment was poking fun at the two different views. Obviously that one went over it too. (your head that is)

This leads me to the obvious conclusion that a) you aren't interested in a possible alternative etiology
b) you are becoming irritated because you have no plausible arguement to show otherwise.

However, you are entitled to your own opinion.


Anyway I'm done on this topic. I've been working in the feild for almost 20 years. You aren't interested in entertaining an alternative hypothosis so ....


Good luck

Well, while we're on the subject of shit passing people by, maybe you'll notice that I included a subtle reference to my FATHER concerning that aspect of passing down addiction by means of genetics. Let me spell it out for you so you'll get my point; no one in my family has had ANY problems with any substance. You can believe me or not, I don't give a shit, but I'm the first. I'm also the first to be diagnosed with depression.

I wasn't saying that what you're claiming is entirely impossible. I know many docs believe in a direct correlation between genetics and addiction. If you'll also pay a little closer attention, I said "In my case" at the beginning of that post.

Sounds like you're the one who needs to change his tampon because a couple of people disagree with your beliefs there buddy.

And what is this "winning comment" nonsense?

 

[Unknown]

Well, while we're on the subject of shit passing people by, maybe you'll notice that I included a subtle reference to my FATHER concerning that aspect of passing down addiction by means of genetics. Let me spell it out for you so you'll get my point; no one in my family has had ANY problems with any substance. You can believe me or not, I don't give a shit, but I'm the first. I'm also the first to be diagnosed with depression.

I wasn't saying that what you're claiming is entirely impossible. I know many docs believe in a direct correlation between genetics and addiction. If you'll also pay a little closer attention, I said "In my case" at the beginning of that post.

Sounds like you're the one who needs to change his tampon because a couple of people disagree with your beliefs there buddy.

And what is this "winning comment" nonsense?

I totally agree with you. Its all on an individual basis. This guy is just trying to preach his beleifs as true. I really hope hes not in a position of power, because the people under him would have to abide his closed minded bullshit.

 

[Sturnam]

i think both sides of the argument are vastly oversimplifying addiction.

i believe it has both genetic and personal/environmental factors involved. basically, its the same as any other disease out there. there may be triggers that activate the gene expression (depression, stress, anxiety), but this doesn't mean that if someone is depressed they will develop an addiction.

once an addiction is started though, permanent neuronal changes have been made that make it extremely hard to quit the addictive behavior. this is not to say that addicts cant stay clean, but is evident in AA's 10% success rate. as reference to the neural changes (and something everyone in here should read), i present to you....

www*erowid*org/references/refs_view.php?ID=7138
(replace the stars with a period. sorry, cant post links yet)

it explains the neural changes that are made as an addiction is developed. also explains why the behavior becomes compulsive, genes/proteins that are only activated or have elevated levels in clinical addiction, etc.

 

[Unknown]

i think both sides of the argument are vastly oversimplifying addiction.

i believe it has both genetic and personal/environmental factors involved. basically, its the same as any other disease out there. there may be triggers that activate the gene expression (depression, stress, anxiety), but this doesn't mean that if someone is depressed they will develop an addiction.

once an addiction is started though, permanent neuronal changes have been made that make it extremely hard to quit the addictive behavior. this is not to say that addicts cant stay clean, but is evident in AA's 10% success rate. as reference to the neural changes (and something everyone in here should read), i present to you....

www*erowid*org/references/refs_view.php?ID=7138
(replace the stars with a period. sorry, cant post links yet)

it explains the neural changes that are made as an addiction is developed. also explains why the behavior becomes compulsive, genes/proteins that are only activated or have elevated levels in clinical addiction, etc.

I NEVER said that genetics don't play a role AT ALL. I said that it may be a "factor" and genes are the the cause of it. I think environment, ones state of mind, and overall personality are the reasons why one would start to pick up the bottle or shoot in the vein.

 

[belfort]

do opiates change brain chemistry??

YES they do and im living proof..i started out skinpopping nubain, did it straight for 2 years, then found oxycontin, snorting it, maximum amount was around 80-90 mgs a day..i stayed on that for a few years, then my source ran dry so i had to get clean, i toughed it out and i stayed clean for around 3 months...then i found heroin, started snorting it but quickly went to Iv and i stayed shooting it for a few years..i was up to shooting 2 grams a day, but i went broke so i had no choice, had to go on methadone..the highest dose of meth i was on was 60 mgs, i didnt want to go any higher..i stayed on the program for 2 years and then detoxed...it took me awhile to feel right from that, not so much the physical sickness, but the mental blankness, apathy really hit me hard...here i am, its been 3-4 years since i got off methadone and i am drug free, so do i feel normal like i used to before i started using drugs??the short answer is HELL NO...i dont seem to have the ability to enjoy the small things in life, like walking the dogs, reading a book, just chilling out on the porch etc etc...it feels more like im acting it out, pretending im enjoying those things when im really not...im not as energetic and motivated as i once was, and the biggest problem i have faced since getting clean is BOREDOM..im not talking about sitting in the house bored because you arent doing anything, im talking about being bored when you are 100% busy, a heavy feeling of dullness....like nothing really gets my juices flowing, even hot women and lots of money or going to a buddies fight, nothing really works me up anymore...thats the strane thing because now, i have been clean for 3-4 years but im thinking about going back on maintenance, subuxone maintenance this time because i just dont feel right..heres the kicker with me though, i havent had a craving in years, i simply dont crave opiates, i just dont feel normal without them...so yes opiates change brain chemistry without a doubt...

also, i can definitely side with people that think alcohol lost its touch since they started using opiates..i remember years back before opiates, i loved to drink(only a weekend warrior though) and i would get a ton of euphoria from it, i would feel ontop of the world, so full of energy, enthusiastic, life of the party but after taking opiates, it seemed that all alcohol did anymore was just NUMB me...made me feel like crap to be honest......

 

[-Guido-]

Opiates = No turning back

 

[rachamim]

Time will not permit me to read the entire thread at this point so please forgive me if I repeat something said by another poster.

The accepted science is that If a person becomes heavily addicted to opiates/opioids before the age of 24, that their endorphin productrion AND interaction will be irreperably altered in a negative way. It is also believed, although not quite proven yet, is the belief that certain receptors are also altered as well (which I do agree with).

 

[-Guido-]

The accepted science is that If a person becomes heavily addicted to opiates/opioids before the age of 24, that their endorphin productrion AND interaction will be irreperably altered in a negative way.

Awesome. I really fucked myself...

 

[kratom luver]

Unless you get on buprenorphine maintenance, in which case you don't need to worry about producing your own endogenous opioids as you can just pop a pill every day.

 

[cire113]

dude ive done more opiates in one sitting then u have in your whole life i think you will be fine lol


Brain chemistry is definitely altered but i think the brain is pretty resilient. I mean physical w/d doesnt last forever does it?

The question really is was my brain chemistry normal before i started abusing opiates?

 

[belfort]

^^are you clean cire113?/if so, how long??and yes i have the same question, was my chemical balance normal befoere i started taking drugs..?thats impossible to answer now..i know i didnt feel this lethargic and just out of it before i started using drugs so...

 

[svacheme3]

For long term abusers there are permanent changes in the expression of certain proteins; for example opiates affect CREB, which itself returns to normal fairly quickly, but it leads to increased production of transcription factor delta FosB, which is highly stable and can remain present for months, and cause structural changes that can last for years. The details really aren't that clear, but there certainly are changes in the VTA/NAc area of the brain that persist for years or decades, mainly related to trigger response for relapse.

Subjectively, I was clean for a month in jail once and still felt miserable; but on the other hand I have a natural deficiency in my reward system and dopamine system that made me turn to drugs in the first place. As soon as I was out I headed straight to the needles and 80s I had at home; zero desire to stay clean.

 

[belfort]

"changes in the VTA/NAc area of the brain that persist for years or decades"

ok, what does this mean to someone who isnt familiar with those terms??

ssvaceme-how do you know you had a faulty reward system before you used drugs??there is no way to prove this as far as i know...

 

[sonnyluv]

do opiates change brain chemistry??

YES they do and im living proof..i started out skinpopping nubain, did it straight for 2 years, then found oxycontin, snorting it, maximum amount was around 80-90 mgs a day..i stayed on that for a few years, then my source ran dry so i had to get clean, i toughed it out and i stayed clean for around 3 months...then i found heroin, started snorting it but quickly went to Iv and i stayed shooting it for a few years..i was up to shooting 2 grams a day, but i went broke so i had no choice, had to go on methadone..the highest dose of meth i was on was 60 mgs, i didnt want to go any higher..i stayed on the program for 2 years and then detoxed...it took me awhile to feel right from that, not so much the physical sickness, but the mental blankness, apathy really hit me hard...here i am, its been 3-4 years since i got off methadone and i am drug free, so do i feel normal like i used to before i started using drugs??the short answer is HELL NO...i dont seem to have the ability to enjoy the small things in life, like walking the dogs, reading a book, just chilling out on the porch etc etc...it feels more like im acting it out, pretending im enjoying those things when im really not...im not as energetic and motivated as i once was, and the biggest problem i have faced since getting clean is BOREDOM..im not talking about sitting in the house bored because you arent doing anything, im talking about being bored when you are 100% busy, a heavy feeling of dullness....like nothing really gets my juices flowing, even hot women and lots of money or going to a buddies fight, nothing really works me up anymore...thats the strane thing because now, i have been clean for 3-4 years but im thinking about going back on maintenance, subuxone maintenance this time because i just dont feel right..heres the kicker with me though, i havent had a craving in years, i simply dont crave opiates, i just dont feel normal without them...so yes opiates change brain chemistry without a doubt...

also, i can definitely side with people that think alcohol lost its touch since they started using opiates..i remember years back before opiates, i loved to drink(only a weekend warrior though) and i would get a ton of euphoria from it, i would feel ontop of the world, so full of energy, enthusiastic, life of the party but after taking opiates, it seemed that all alcohol did anymore was just NUMB me...made me feel like crap to be honest......

Reflective story-good insight.
I don't think you're chemically fucked though. You sound depressed, which you are. Has to be the same mindset that got you into heavy addiction in the first place. And I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

I stop going to therapy during periods of heavy abuse. Like, I find a reason to not go -then I go opiate nuts. But even at 180 percs a month I can stay high only for a week. Not enough anymore. Reality is depressing. Fuck, even 100mgs of perc won't do it anymore. I tried IV'ing Fentanyl, didn't do shit. I'm serious, not even a buzz.
Difficult....

 

[belfort]

^^thats the thing, i have been depressed before and i know how that feels, what i have felt since stopping opiates isnt depression..it drove mecazy at first because i had no idea why i was feeling like that..i had this idea(like most people do) that when you stop taking drugs, you eventually start to feel better..well, that isnt always the case and none of my counselors mentioned that nasty word, PAWS..post acute withdrawal symptoms..its basically a fancy word for 'feeling like shit'....this is most notorious for opiod addicts..in some people, it goes away, for others it doesnt...at that point, one can only learn different ways of dealing with paws, or just go on opiod maintenance...