Do opiates Permanently change your chemical balance in your brain?

[Unknown]

^ This makes me wonder about permanent damage, though, like the OP was asking about. If you quit and eventually all of your receptors are supposed to go back to normal levels, then why would tolerance skyrocket if you start using again? Shouldn't you go back to the way you were before if there are no permanent changes? Why would your tolerance come back so fast if your brain is back to normal?

Can anybody explain what I'm not getting here?

Tolerance goes back, because chroic use of opiates DO change your brain chemistry. The brain is a crazy organ. Maybe your tolerance goes back, because your brain has experienced overwhelming receptor agonists, and it acts as if you need more mu, kappa, delta receptors to balance things out.

Mr. Blonde: Chronic opiate use is hard on the kidney. One would have to be using a lot of opiates over a long peroid of time to actually get kidney damage.

 

[got beans?]

Not in those amounts. You just found a better drug.

exactly what i was thinking. the same thing happened to me, however, i think that what changed was not the nature of the alcohol "high" as much as my definition of what a desirable high is. given this, it seems obvious to me that this is not a change in my brain's chemical balance but merely a change in preference resulting from increased experience.

[can anyone tell that i'm currently opiated because of my syntax? ]

 

[gethigh]

i would liked this answered by the knowledgable mods ie. 6/7 phrozen and fastandboulbous (sp?) does use of opioids fuck your opioid receptors after long term use? Or answered by anyone with a very good education and know what they are talking about and jc your welcome on this too.

 

[Fail Fighter]

does use of opioids fuck your opioid receptors after long term use?

Of course, what do you think tolerance is? Your body and brain are very good at regulation. When you do drugs and flood your synaptic gaps with excess amounts of neurotransmitters, the transmitter receptor sites actually recede back into the neuron (axon terminals actually) to regulate the neural activity. Hence the need to keep taking more and more to get a rush. This is also the reason for addiction; if you stop cold turkey, your synaptic gaps will be almost completely devoid of serotonin/norepinephrine/etc. so your entire body will be riddled with aches and pains.

However, once you go clean, your brain will start to repair itself. The NT receptor sites will move back to the surface (and perhaps neurogenesis will repair the damaged neuron/glia cells). If you look at the PET scans of addicts who have gone clean, you will clearly see how the brain repairs itself. There is a limit, however, and severe addicts still show large areas of cortical inactivity, even after many years of being clean.

The moral of the story: moderation. Never do drugs "days in a row." Have fun one night, then allow a week or so for your body to heal. Studies show that it takes up to a week for neurotransmitter supplies to fully replenish (they are broken down during drug use - part of the brain's "regulation" system).

As for the the comment about alcohol - I am in exactly the same boat. I started experimenting with hydrocodone and I immediately stopped drinking. After 6 years of drinking, it seems that I will never again have the desire to get drunk. I am more than happy taking 20 mg of hydro w/ 2 oz of alcohol to get exactly where I want to be. I do this maybe 1 - 2 times a month and I have only built a very slight tolerance (started with 10 mg). Still, the thought of getting drunk almost makes me sick to my stomach. It's amazing how I almost completely abandoned alcohol overnight.

 

[KStoner6tb]

Not in those amounts. You just found a better drug.

You didn't listen to what I said. The alcohol buzz used to be very enjoyable to me..UNTIL I started abusing painkillers. So, I simply didn't find a better drug, because I have dabbled in almost every substance out there, abusing some.

It wasn't until I started with opiates that drinking seemed to just lack that euphoria that once was VERY present.

 

[Gum Base]

johanneschimpo check your prive messages please..

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ "renal failure" means kidneys, not liver

Fuck... I'm gonna leave a note next to the desktop that says 'Don't Visit BL When Fried'.

ETA:

i would liked this answered by the knowledgable mods ie. 6/7 phrozen and fastandboulbous (sp?) does use of opioids fuck your opioid receptors after long term use? Or answered by anyone with a very good education and know what they are talking about and jc your welcome on this too.

6/7? FnB? JC? Good education?

Ouch.

 

[Canis aureus]

I'm sure that long term use causes or would cause permanent or irreversible changes to chemical and functional balance in brains, but I'm not so sure what all there exactly happens and how these changes happen and how large they are in scale...




That huge tolerance build-up of old user is one example how the long term user's brains work differently that normal brains. Skyrocketing tolerance comes from the rapid growth of number of receptors in total.


And how about the fact that old user becomes more quickly dependent again than non-addicts gets addicted (in much shorter period of use) when long termer relapses after period of clean life. Long termers brains must add fast the number of receptors in presence of opiate/opioid, and the mechanism behind dependency will be formed very quickly again if once learned or formed.

Then there are endorphine system related things. Endorphine production will be hit by opiate use and addicted user will shut down his or her endorphine production with exogenous opiates. Endorphine system starts shrinking because the presence of large quantity of opiates makes brains "think" that it should level the endorphines down by turning out the production. And if the opiate level is continously high, the endorphine production will be shut all that time. Opiate addict's endorphines would become also useless in producing pleasures to user because strong opiates are present and would occupy receptors.

Opiate user causes in principle similar effects to his endorphine production as hormones using athlete causes to his hormone production. Athlete causes with outer hormones the shutting down of his inner production system because brains turns out the mechanism to produce and release hormones

More the opiates are used or will be used, the poorer will be the chance to the complete recovery of endorphine system and its endorphine production; so longer the addict has been using, the longer has his endorphine system been shut down. Long term addict's endorphine production may not recover to satisfactory level, and addict will relapse again and again because of his life without endorphines


And a long term user who tries to quit and relapses, will the most likely relapse completely back to opiate use, than short term addict who kicks and relapses, because WD symptoms will hit much harder. That thing is probably again depending on the rapid growth of receptors in long term users brains. It is also so that: Long term users are less successful in their quitting than short term users. Long term addicts will almost surely slide back to using, after they find out that life would not be that great.


I think it is at least depending on both of the mentioned conditions, shut down and ruined endorphine system and rapid growth. The long term addict's endorphine system is more ruined and less likely to work successfully when addict is trying to kick his habit, it takes more time to recover and it will produce less than enough endorphines, and will be shut down more easily. And when long term addict relapses, additional receptors will be formed more quickly, or there will be a reserve of additional receptors remaining long termers brains after temporary kicking...

So, when all things related to addict's additional receptors and poorly functioning endorphine system would be added to each other, it could result such a soup of shitty state of affairs that the most long term addicts will either stay on opiates/opioids or slide back and forth of addiction and kicking


IN the end, I started to think what causes the cravings to use for kicking addict, because they are like hunger or thirst.

 

[sixpartseven]

i would liked this answered by the knowledgable mods ie. 6/7 phrozen and fastandboulbous (sp?) does use of opioids fuck your opioid receptors after long term use? Or answered by anyone with a very good education and know what they are talking about and jc your welcome on this too.

Yes

It was already answered if you would have read the entire thread.

Tolerance never goes back to baseline, and when a individual who was once tolerant starts using after a period of sobriety, tolerance skyrockets back to where it was previously.

There is no other way this would happen unless the receptors have been changed/fucked. If by "fucked" you mean damaged to the point where they are disabled/unusable, the answer would be no. Opiate/oid receptors are vital to a lot of body functions and the brain has a way to repair/salvage them. This is also part of why tolerance will go back down.

 

[Unknown]

i would liked this answered by the knowledgable mods ie. 6/7 phrozen and fastandboulbous (sp?) does use of opioids fuck your opioid receptors after long term use? Or answered by anyone with a very good education and know what they are talking about and jc your welcome on this too.

um... what the fuck is that suppose to mean? There are more people than those group of people who actually know what their saying. It doesnt take a brain scientist either to figure out what long term opiate use does to the body, so stop isolating members as stupid. Thank you.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ He wasn't "isolating members as stupid" - he was "isolating members as intelligent," and hoping he could get a response from them because he trusts what they say. I understand you're new so you might not know what he's referring to, but the context of his post was completely friendly. Complimentary even...

So, to you, Dr. gethigh, thank you for the compliment. I'm glad that you respect what I have to say here in OD.
--> I would answer your question but it seems it has already been answered.

 

[inkfreak74x9]

The alcohol buzz used to be very enjoyable to me..UNTIL I started abusing painkillers. So, I simply didn't find a better drug, because I have dabbled in almost every substance out there, abusing some.

It wasn't until I started with opiates that drinking seemed to just lack that euphoria that once was VERY present.

I know what you mean. I was a seasoned alchoholic untill I found opiates. In fact I can say this for at least 5 of my friends. None of us enjoy or can even stomach alchohol at this point. Even after some have gotten off the op"s they still wont drink.

 

[Unknown]

^ He wasn't "isolating members as stupid" - he was "isolating members as intelligent," and hoping he could get a response from them because he trusts what they say. I understand you're new so you might not know what he's referring to, but the context of his post was completely friendly. Complimentary even...

So, to you, Dr. gethigh, thank you for the compliment. I'm glad that you respect what I have to say here in OD.
--> I would answer your question but it seems it has already been answered.

I understand what you mean, but still, he can PM you instead of insulting other members. I agree that you know your shit, but other people here do too. As much as I respect your posts, i still read other peoples input as well. PLUS, he wasn't the OP asking the question. You right, I am new, but im trying to gain respect, and I do think some people do already. I stay away from shit unless I know something about the question asked. IDK, I just felt that gethigh thought our answers were invalad. Thanks for clearing this up JC.

 

[edarrin]

You didn't listen to what I said.

you're right. I read it.

But seriously, google

opiate receptors;alcohol


and you will discover that there is some evidence that alcoholics are sitting ducks for opiate addiction. like me. After I got clean from alcohol and cocaine addiction I injured myself after 12 years of 100% clean time. now I'm addicted to opioids.

I did this myself but I couldn't get the link to work. I'll try again.


http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/222/4629/1246

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-09/ace-ptr091001.php

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/17819.php


Where I work they are doing research into this phenomenom.
Hope this helps.

 

[Unknown]

opiate receptors;alcohol

and you will discover that there is some evidence that alcoholics are sitting ducks for opiate addiction. like me. After I got clean from alcohol and cocaine addiction I injured myself after 12 years of 100% clean time. now I'm addicted to opioids.

Perhaps maybe the problem is ones addictive personality? People who start abusing painkillers do it for: A) Insufficient pain management, or B) To have a good time (because one can't have fun with "life"). I understand addition, I really do, but I do believe the factors lie in ones personality. Thats why recovered alcoholics can function. If what your saying is true, please, for all of us, get help, before it gets really ugly.

 

[edarrin]

^ perhaps you don't like science?

it has been about 7 years now so I think I'll pull through OK. Thanks for your concern though

Most ,if not all, recovering addicts can function. There is also a phenomonom of 'functioning addicts' too, although granted, it is a fine line seperating functioning and nonfunctioning.

Maybe this is over your head, but research is trying to find out, biochemically, why such a thing as an 'addictive personality' exists or even why addiction exists in the first place. Personally I believe their is a biochemical/biostructural explaination for most psychiatric diseases.

I don't think you understand addiction at all from your post?

 

[Unknown]

^ perhaps you don't like science?

it has been about 7 years now so I think I'll pull through OK. Thanks for your concern though

Most ,if not all, recovering addicts can function. There is also a phenomonom of 'functioning addicts' too, although granted, it is a fine line seperating functioning and nonfunctioning.

Maybe this is over your head, but research is trying to find out, biochemically, why such a thing as an 'addictive personality' exists or even why addiction exists in the first place. Personally I believe their is a biochemical/biostructural explaination for most psychiatric diseases.

I don't think you understand addiction at all from your post?

I do understand addiction completely, but im not really going to it into it. Me talking about it will not contribute to this thread at all. I know the studies about the biochemical changes in the brain due to drug and alcohol abuse. I just believe addiction is more of a personality trait. I'm on the side of it being behavioral. Why do people start using drugs and alcohol to begin with? I have never heard of someone who TRULY had a happy life turn to addiction. You may argue this point, but really the person wouldn't be truly happy. I have friends who have no desire to use drugs, drink, gamble, or another things on an addictive level. Does that mean they don't have the "biochemical" traits of addiction?

 

[edarrin]

^ Ever heard of epigenetics? Google that and it may become clearer. I have this conversation quite regularly at work. you are not alone in your belief, however I think my side is winning at present

 

[KStoner6tb]

I do understand addiction completely, but im not really going to it into it. Me talking about it will not contribute to this thread at all. I know the studies about the biochemical changes in the brain due to drug and alcohol abuse. I just believe addiction is more of a personality trait. I'm on the side of it being behavioral. Why do people start using drugs and alcohol to begin with? I have never heard of someone who TRULY had a happy life turn to addiction. You may argue this point, but really the person wouldn't be truly happy. I have friends who have no desire to use drugs, drink, gamble, or another things on an addictive level. Does that mean they don't have the "biochemical" traits of addiction?

I believe both points bare some truth. I however have to lean more towards 1985 in my case. I know my *personality/depression/reason for doing drugs* is what has led me to quite a large problem with any and all substances. Just the feeling of not wanting to be sober

All of my friends that are really sucessfull in this stage of life, certainly are not abusing any substances. Most people I know that are having a tough time in life, turn to substances for comfort...poor coping skills?? Absolutely. I consider myself to have a fairly weak mentality. How could I let myself get to this point? People like my father, have gone through more hard times, depressing events than I, and don't have to turn to booze/drugs to cope...

 

[Unknown]

^ Ever heard of epigenetics? Google that and it may become clearer. I have this conversation quite regularly at work. you are not alone in your belief, however I think my side is winning at present

I am not afraid to be wrong, so whomevers "winning" is besides the point. I get into discussion to find the truth, not to have a "I'm always right" approach to everything. Fuck google, i want to know what "you" think, not through a search engine. Are you telling me that addiction is a mental disease and all addicted people are "victims". I personally think its a load of shit, despite what some of the studies out there say. I believe behavior can be changed, and one should be accountable for their actions. I hate when people "victimize" their selves. People do it way too often. For example, a kids a little hyper, give him Ritalin. Im not saying thats theres no such thing as ADD, but I think people like to blame something external for shit, hence being the "victim". Instead of calling it something, deal with it!
*sigh* here come the flames...

EDIT: IDK if I got my point across on this post, but im fucking tired and im having a kidney stone, so excuse my clusterfucked-ness.