Dilaudid IV vs. Opana IR (not ER) IV

[diacetyldeath]

Greetings

I am visiting my pain doc tonight and he's offered me to try Dilaudid or Opana.

My eventual goal is IV (I understand IVing pills is not very safe; I am planning to be as safe as possible but you need not repeat this caveat to me).

I'd like to understand folks' experiences (if any) with both, especially in regards to tolerance. I am currently taking 110mg Methadone/day (one dose in the morning), which I began in August 2006 after two years of Heroin use (culminating in approx. 40 bags/day IV).

The first, most important question is, will I even feel it at any dose that won't irrevocably clog even a lower-gauge needle?

If that isn't a problem, I'd like to understand people's success (if any, I know of at least one person in the forum) at IVing Opana IR (NOT ER) and whether it "worked" for them or not, along with their tolerance information. One person indicated that basically a cold shake took care of it, but they didn't feel a thing. The only ingredient in it different from the old cold-shakable Dilaudids (K4s, K8s, etc.) is Pregelatinized Starch, on which I've also been reading up a great deal. I'm thinking of trying to neutralize it with an acid like lemon juice, or trying to separate it, I don't know. I have heard from multiple sources that starch is not a very wonderful thing to have in one's bloodstream.

Also, I've heard that generic hydromorphone (Dilaudid) is very difficult to process for IV. Is this the case? A lot of "preparing pills for injection" threads I've read deal with extended release pills, and I'm talking about IR pills. Is there any help anyone can give me along these lines? I have searched a great deal in the forum itself, google, etc.

What kind of IV dosage do you think would be appropriate of both meds? I'm not interested in a "rush" per se; merely the narcotic relaxed, semiproductive feeling or (with a few more mg) the relaxed, nodding feeling.

If anyone could give me a recommendation or information on any of these topics, I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks very much for any help
-DD

 

[big T]

i have had genaic dillys in canada and they wored the same for prep... i only used a cotton... i have never seen opana.... i tried 8mg dilly iv and i am on 75 mgs methadone and i didnt feel it... i used to do 3or4 8 mg pills at a time before the methadone and i found the 8 mg pill thats why i only tried it the once.... i can still get high on opiates but it takes alot...... that dose you are on you wont feel anything orally.. unless he prescribbing you 100mgs a day

 

[bigpoppax23]

Yo

I have been taking 20mg Opana ER for a month now...
It does wonders for me because my tolerance to Oxycodone is VERY high...
I either chew or swallow the Opana whole... it is VERY strong for me. As far as I know it is VERY strong to snort. The people I have seen snort it have had NO problems... it did NOT gel up at ALL. It is clear to me that the people that snorted it felt it MUCH stronger and longer than me... even with chewing it. No matter how you do the Opana, I believe eating a full meal DOES increase the absorption and potency A LOT.

As for the Dilaudid, when I had it, it did NOTHING for me... I had 2, 4, and 8mg from Mallinckrodt... I swallowed them whole, chewed them, and ate a full meal with them... it did nothing for me... even in high doses. People I know that snorted them said it was very weak. As far as I know IV or IM Shot is the ONLY way to get a really strong effect from Dilaudid... and I have not heard anything about it geling up.

Either way I would say not to inject more than 2 or 3mg in one shot(start off small), of the Oxymorphone or Hydromorphone. Also, I believe the Opana IR gels up the same way as the ER... I have a "feeling" that MILK might contain certain enzymes that might make Opana ER and IR injectable.

 

[synchrojet]

Opana all the way. The stuff rocks. Beats oxy all to hell, but the withdrawals from Opana are horrific -- way, way worse than oxy. But the high is the one you are looking for.

 

[bigpoppax23]

Opana all the way. The stuff rocks. Beats oxy all to hell, but the withdrawals from Opana are horrific -- way, way worse than oxy. But the high is the one you are looking for.

This IS true... I do not know yet how I will feel when I come off of Opana because I have not missed a dose...
Other people I know that have taken it recreationally have experienced TERRIBLE withdrawals similar to Heroin and Fentanyl. If you just take it a few times and stop you will feel VERY sick.

Also... the high, when I CHEW a 20mg ER 30 minutes after I eat a FULL MEAL, it is VERY STRONG. It is VERY euphoric; I get a very ECSTASY like feeling that I NEVER GOT FROM OXYCODONE at ANY DOSE. Opana gets you more lose, a fluid feeling. I get AUDIO DISTORTIONS like NO OTHER painkillers, the only thing I can compare it to is HIGH doses of MDMA, such as clean Ecstasy. I also get double vision, blurred vision, seeing shadows that are NOT there, and some other visual distortions.

To me it does not taste bad AT ALL to chew it, some people have snorted it and told me it does not taste bad, other people HATE the taste of snorting it... it varies.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Well as I said, I am on 110mg methadone/day, and before that was doing heroin IV for 2 years, so I know withdrawals. Not worried about them, can always up the methadone.

I also know I won't feel any of this stuff orally. I plan on shooting 20-30mg of the opana and/or 24-32mg of the Dilaudid.

Unfortunately, went to several pharmacies tonight and NOBODY stocks Opana OR Dilaudid. WTF? I'm going to call around more tomorrow, but this is bullshit. Fucking narc-paranoid fucks.

Oh well. At least I got the Rxs. That's the hard part, right?

 

[bigpoppax23]

Well as I said, I am on 110mg methadone/day, and before that was doing heroin IV for 2 years, so I know withdrawals. Not worried about them, can always up the methadone.

I also know I won't feel any of this stuff orally. I plan on shooting 20-30mg of the opana and/or 24-32mg of the Dilaudid.

Unfortunately, went to several pharmacies tonight and NOBODY stocks Opana OR Dilaudid. WTF? I'm going to call around more tomorrow, but this is bullshit. Fucking narc-paranoid fucks.

Oh well. At least I got the Rxs. That's the hard part, right?

You are predispotioned to thinking that it WONT work orally... you do NOT know until you try, EATING does change the potency and absorption orally. If you take a high dose, such as 40-80mg of Opana you WILL feel something. If you get your plasma up with a fatty meal AND snort it, the absorption is 70-80%.

Also shooting THAT MUCH at once of either Oxymorphone or Hydromorphone is A LOT and you WILL feel a rush.

In the hospital, when the doctor sets up an IV of say Hydromorphone(Dilaudid) it is something like 3-5mg, every 7-10minutes you can push for more.

The pharmacy does not stock the Opana because it is NEW... October and what not... I don't know about Dilaudid though... I guess they don't have it because it is one of the strongest on the market.... Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, and Fentanyl.

 

[diacetyldeath]

You are predispotioned to thinking that it WONT work orally... you do NOT know until you try, EATING does change the potency and absorption orally. If you take a high dose, such as 40-80mg of Opana you WILL feel something. If you get your plasma up with a fatty meal AND snort it, the absorption is 70-80%.

Also shooting THAT MUCH at once of either Oxymorphone or Hydromorphone is A LOT and you WILL feel a rush.

In the hospital, when the doctor sets up an IV of say Hydromorphone(Dilaudid) it is something like 3-5mg, every 7-10minutes you can push for more.

The pharmacy does not stock the Opana because it is NEW... October and what not... I don't know about Dilaudid though... I guess they don't have it because it is one of the strongest on the market.... Hydromorphone, Oxymorphone, and Fentanyl.

I want to put some things in perspective for you. You could be just generous and think that I have a moderate to average-severe opioid tolerance, or you could be incredibly ignorant. I'm going to assume the former for your benefit, but please don't prove yourself to be the latter.

From 2004 - 2006, I did heroin. I began snorting it and ended my habit (the last 4-6 months) by IVING 40 bags PER DAY. Assume an average street bag is 80-120mg powder whose purity ranges from 2-99%, but in my area it hovers between 50-80%. Even at the WORST case, let's do some simple math:

80mg/bag @ 50% heroin = 40mg heroin/bag
40 bags/day == 1.6 grams heroin/day (1600 milligrams) IV
So to keep me straight (not withdrawing) and to give me a mild noddy feeling, I required 1.6 grams of heroin (1600 milligrams) INJECTED INTO MY BLOODSTREAM, PER DAY. As you may know, IV injection makes a drug 100% bioavailable. Oral, insufflated, or rectal administration of a drug can approach 100% for certain VERY available substances, but will NEVER meet or exceed the bioavailability of an IV injection.

So, back to the math problem:

My baseline required 1600mg heroin IV per day.

Hydrmorphone (dilaudid) is 3-6x the strength of heroin. To give your argument credit, we'll assume the best and say it's 6x stronger than heroin. Therefore, to keep me at baseline, I would require 1600/6 milligrams IV of Dilaudid per day. That's 267mg Dilaudid/day. IV.

I'm not done.

Oxymorphone (Opana), to give your case more credit, we'll say is 2x stronger than hydromorphone (Dilaudid). That means I require approx. 133mg Opana per day IV to keep me at BASELINE.

Opana happens to have an oral bioavailability of 10% (source). To give you MORE benefit of the doubt, we'll raise that to 40% "after eating a fatty meal." So only 40% of the Opana I eat will reach my brain, vs. 100% of that which I inject into my arm. So if I were going to eat Opana that had a 40% bioavailability, in order to attain the effects of 133mg administered IV I would need to eat 133mg / 40% (133 / 0.40) = 332.5mg.

Giving you many benefits of the doubt, I would need to consume 332.5mg of Opana "with a fatty meal" to feel baseline (not sick), let alone high. That's 9-10x the amount you suggested, and that's using the extremes of every published range to massage the calculation to be as close as possible to the figure you gave (30-40mg).

This is all giving you benefit after benefit of the doubt. In reality, Hydromorphone might be 3-4x stronger than heroin, Oxymorphone might be 1.5x stronger than Hydromorphone, and the oral bioavailability of Oxymorphone will NEVER be 40% (my source says 10%). It is far more likely, then, using the figures in THIS paragraph, that I would need to eat 3.555 GRAMS (3555 milligrams) of Opana to achieve baseline.

Also, I haven't even figured in to this entire discussion the fact that I am NOW taking 110mg/day of Methadone, which (given the half-life of methadone and the manner in which the active agonist dose builds up in the body) is a HIGHER dose of opioid than my previous daily dose of heroin. So the dosages I would need for baseline are even HIGHER (but there's no sound mathematical way to calculate how much higher, so I went with my heroin dose).

Please think about tolerance and math before you make replies like this one.

But thanks for the feedback.

nb: I'm not saying it was smart (in fact, I readily claim it was very stupid) to achieve a tolerance of this level the way I did. I don't recommend it. It has basically ruined my ability to feel narcotics, which could result in horrible agony if I were ever to assume a condition of real chronic pain (e.g. cancer). This knowledge is somewhat scary to me. Anyway, don't do heroin, kids. And if you do, try to limit your tolerance by suffering wimpy withdrawals every 2 months or so so that you never have to feel what a "real" withdrawal feels like (I can't really describe a "real" withdrawal; imagine the worst possible feeling you can, and then try to imagine something 500x worse, and you might start to get an idea of what the first moments of a "real" withdrawal feels like).

 

[bigpoppax23]

Wow

All I have to say is, WOW...

You think you know everything but, you do not.
I pity you.

Also I do not believe for one second your claims of how much Heroin you have done, or need to achieve baseline.

I will not discuss this further with you because you are talking about STUPID and DANGEROUS amounts of opiates, and you are the type of person that ruins it for people in REAL pain... just to get high.

Most people would make fun of you for quoting Wikipedia... I won't, but I will tell you that the oral bioavailability goes from 10% to 60% when you get your plasma at peak levels....
My source is the prescribing information from ENDO...
Page 4-6... Food Effect and Ethanol Effect...
http://www.opana.com/ click FULL US PRESCRIBING INFORMATION... and actually read it.

P.S. I do not need you to give me the benefit of the doubt, I am a med student... I know more about medicine than you ever will.

 

[Pegasus]

bigpoppa, I just have to comment that your on and off capitalization really throws me off... (others, too, I'm sure)

 

[diacetyldeath]

Also I do not believe for one second your claims of how much Heroin you have done, or need to achieve baseline.

P.S. I do not need you to give me the benefit of the doubt, I am a med student... I know more about medicine than you ever will.

Basically, your argument boils down to the fact that you don't believe that I had to inject 40 bags/day of heroin not to be sick. I cannot cure you of believing something that isn't true, and I won't try.

The remainder of your post talked about oral bioavailability, which doesn't matter if I'd still require over 300mg oxymorphone IV just to achieve baseline.

Q.E.D.

If you're a med student, I pity you; I'm an IT executive and I apparently know more about medicine than you already do. Maybe you should find a better school?

In any case, this thread is off-topic from my post; I will no longer respond if you choose to continue it, which I have no doubt you will, as you BL'ers who swear by ignorance and melodrama absolutely *must* have the Last Word.

Be safe.

 

[designed_reality]

load up three 4 or 8 mg dilaudids in a rig, and blast the f*ck off. what a feeling.

 

[diacetyldeath]

load up three 4 or 8 mg dilaudids in a rig, and blast the f*ck off. what a feeling.

While I appreciate your sentiment, I was hoping more for a person who had experience with both Opana and Dilaudid, and who could speak to my tolerance of (currently) 110mg Methadone/day and (previously) 40 bags heroin IV/day.

Will 12mg Dilaudid IV really make me very high if I've been doing either 40 bags heroin IV/day or 110mg oral methadone/day for the past ~1 year?

(It's okay to say "I don't know.")

 

[anafagodma]

While I appreciate your sentiment, I was hoping more for a person who had experience with both Opana and Dilaudid, and who could speak to my tolerance of (currently) 110mg Methadone/day and (previously) 40 bags heroin IV/day.

Will 12mg Dilaudid IV really make me very high if I've been doing either 40 bags heroin IV/day or 110mg oral methadone/day for the past ~1 year?

(It's okay to say "I don't know.")

No, it won't make you very high, given those circumstances. But it wouldn't go unnoticed.

Will the pharmacies that you've been by order the meds for you, or do they simply refuse- as I know a lot of the big nasty chains do nowadays- to carry hold certain CIIs in stock for fear of getting Drugstore Cowboyed? Did you ask about ordering them, or ask them to reccomend a pharmacy?

 

[Cloud_9]

May be off-topic, but how the hell have you managed to hide your trackmarks from your physician? What "pain" do you suffer from? Is he crooked? How old are you? If you are not old without a damn good backstory of pain how did you get your pain doctor to prescribe some of the most abusable opiates out there?

Not to get mad at you specifically, but I really hate people who go and try to dupe the system. I know that junkies will wise up and accurately fake the perfect illness right down to the period in the book in order to get pain medication. The trouble is, most people who really do need this medication just know they have pain, and because doctors are forced to be wary of drug seekers, they kick out a good bunch of the ones that could benefit from programs because one of their severed nerves does not produce pain the way that their nerve pathway chart tells them it HAS do...

I am a chronic pain patient. And I feel guilt even telling the truth to my doctor for the fear of rejected quality of life preserving medication. It is people who dupe the system that force me to be on eggshells while I am with my pharmacist/chronic pain doc. I live in a part of the Bay Area where opiate use is extremely prevelent, and that just makes everyone in healthcare all the more paranoid...

Like I said I'm not angry... I'm just sad. I have seen DYING CANCER PATIENTS wheeled out after hearing the doc make up some bullshit about medication ceilings they can't go over (which they can) and then talking about how he doesn't use any more than a certain amount of each medication because he gets inqueried if he does.

 

[JihadJack]

bigpoppa, I just have to comment that your on and off capitalization really throws me off... (others, too, I'm sure)

stfu

 

[johnnyb420]

While I appreciate your sentiment, I was hoping more for a person who had experience with both Opana and Dilaudid, and who could speak to my tolerance of (currently) 110mg Methadone/day and (previously) 40 bags heroin IV/day.

Will 12mg Dilaudid IV really make me very high if I've been doing either 40 bags heroin IV/day or 110mg oral methadone/day for the past ~1 year?

(It's okay to say "I don't know.")

the simple fact is you have to stop takeing the methadone to have any hope of getting high from any opiate at that dose your receptors are flooded and wont be able to let any other opiate attach.


also you are not trying to say that 110mg of methadone is = to 1600mg of pure heroin are you????

if you really think that you are in no position to argue.

much less attempt to calculate a good dose of opana or dillaudid.

you base that whole argument on an unknown quantity of heroin.

without testing there is no way of estimating how much actual heroin was in the 40 bags you were doing perday


lets ay you were doing 40 bags a day which i have no reason to doubt.

there could be as little as 5% purity at 100mg per bag or less lets see thats 40*100*5%=200mg pure divide that by 6 (6 times as potent for dillaudid) and you end up with aprox 33mg for an equivalent dose of dillaudid divide that by1.5(opana being 1.5 time as strong as dillaudid)and you end up with aprox 22mg of opana = to the daily dose of heroin you were doing i assume you were not doing that in one dose so divide by 4 it could be as little as 5 or 6mg per shot. scale that up if the dope was 10% its still only 10-12mg if it was 20% we are talking about 20mg per shot

big difference from the numbers you came up with.

i would not want to guess which dose would get you high or which one would kill.

 

[poppy wizard]

hello,

a bit off topic:

I am from germany and it is so fucking hard to get Dilaudid (whats opana?) here...
Why so many people are ADDICTED to Oxycodone or Dilaudid ? here you need a so called "Betäubungsmittelrezept" which is a special RX. how this is managed in your country ? I once had a capsule "Palladon" which is Hydromorphone, 24mg, and I paid it extremly overpriced for 200€. But it was worth every cent of it. It is nearly unavailable here, except, if you are a pain patient WITH a clear pain diagnosis.

greetings

 

[einsteinium]

I have to say that I do believe that you were bangin 40 bags a day, but to say that the purity was at worst 50% is almost comical. If you were to attain the tolerance of banging 1.6g of pure heroin in a day it would have to take far more than two years, considering that even for mildly tolerant people, 10mg IV Heroin (pure) is enough to send them to nod land for hours. So, again, I do believe you attained 40 bags/day but I cannot believe the fact that the ammount you were injecting was anywhere close to 1.6g of pure heroin.....

 

[designed_reality]

poppy_wizard, i believe you're referring to whats called a triplicate in the us.