Dilaudid IV vs. Opana IR (not ER) IV

[Pegasus]

stfu

Hey man, I had to say it. Just go back and read his posts with emphasis on the words he capitalized... it doesn't work.

 

[pokergooch]

My tolerance is very high, too. I take around 100mg of methadone and 320mg of oxy a day. When I was prescribed dilaudid first, for breakthru pain. It did absoluletly nothing. I took as many as 30mg im, still nothing. then recently I was given opana. IR. I only ate it by mouth as prescribed. I wish I would have remembered that it works better with a high fat meal. but, opana, too, hardly did a thing.

Honestly, when you are at your dosing. Its my opinion that you would have to take so much that you may injure or kill yourself. The line between life and death with opiates is very thin.

Id stick to what you know what works. I probably wouldn't do any experimenting because of the amount that you would need.

 

[phr]

You need to get off the methadone. Sure its possible to break through it, but its ultimately a waste. Cross tolerance is obviously involved, and I have a feeling your tolerance to Opana or hydromorphone will increase quicker than if you weren't on the methadone. You said you have no problem wd'ing, well, get on it.

(On a side note, I'm surprised 110mg of methadone held you at your 4 bundles a day habit, but maybe you decreased since...)

 

[`pr0digy]

I was doing 3 bundles a day near the end of my habit, I feel your pain Cold turkey in a jail cell FTW! Sorry I can't give you any info on opana, but I'd assume you'd need a fucking bunch more than most people... Common sense.

 

[bigpoppax23]

Wow

Basically, your argument boils down to the fact that you don't believe that I had to inject 40 bags/day of heroin not to be sick. I cannot cure you of believing something that isn't true, and I won't try.

The remainder of your post talked about oral bioavailability, which doesn't matter if I'd still require over 300mg oxymorphone IV just to achieve baseline.

Q.E.D.

If you're a med student, I pity you; I'm an IT executive and I apparently know more about medicine than you already do. Maybe you should find a better school?

In any case, this thread is off-topic from my post; I will no longer respond if you choose to continue it, which I have no doubt you will, as you BL'ers who swear by ignorance and melodrama absolutely *must* have the Last Word.

Be safe.

You do not have to "cure" me of ANYTHING... you have to cure yourself of being a piece of human garbage...

You are obviously a JUNKIE.

Like I already said, YOU are the type of person who RUINS it for all of us... I wish they would just ban you from Bluelight. You are not ASKING for help... you are being an asshole TELLING people what you know and shitting on them when they try to help you. I do not believe for one minute that you are an IT executive like you say... you are just a junkie who needs 1600mg of heroin a day to achieve baseline... you should be ashamed of yourself. Bluelight is here to help people... you cannot and DO NOT want to be helped.

I am the one with Opana experience trying to tell you what I know (if you can read) and you shit on ALL OF IT... you obviously have your own agenda... which is to look like the person with the MOST pain and who needs MORE opiates than anyone else. I do not believe for one second that your doctor is so dumb he continues to prescribe you opiates like Dilaudid, Methadone, or Opana when you are addicted to Heroin.

Last but not least... I attend NYU-Medical, 2nd year... look me up. NO ONE here thinks that you know more about medicine than ANYONE... especially me.
Just because you have experience being a heroin addicted does not mean you know MORE about medicine, it means you know LESS... anyone who knows medicine would have known what would happen...

P.S. Stop PRETENDING to WANT help... no opiate will ever satisfy you... just keep doing the Heroin...

 

[Jabberwocky]

^and you are a fuckhead...who's just made my hangover/headache even worse.

oh...your that silly bastard who does nothing but bitch about other people, and who pays $60 for 2 grams of weed hahaha. it is you who should be banned from bluelight.

anyway im over my bitching

 

[johanneschimpo]

The remainder of your post talked about oral bioavailability, which doesn't matter if I'd still require over 300mg oxymorphone IV just to achieve baseline.

Thats just not true though. The "equivalencies" don't work like that. If you look at some of those narcotic converters, they have an option to adjust for "incomplete cross tolerance" as none of these opiates are 100% cross tolerant. Heres two other reasons: those conversions are for pain, not recreational use, and also, in my own first hand experience, are way off - because its hard to put drugs into concrete numbers like that, and because everybody's body chemistry is widely varies.

40 bags is a lot, I used to have a large habit as well, although it was tar, and it was a little less. And I wasn't at baseline all day, I was nodding.

What I'm trying to say is, when you get your opana, mainline 300mgs, then post here about how you feel. I'm not doubting anything you say, there's no reason not to, but I'm promising that if you were able to get even half of that into a syringe, you would nod the fuck out.

Do it and report back with your findings.

 

[hfrs]

Diac- Johnny is really the only one who has made the most important point. You aren't going to feel a thing until to drop the 'done. The only way to get rid of the blocking effect is to use massive doses and doing that in the dose ranges you are talking about is getting pretty dangerous.

I can tell you from experience (I was using 'done for pain treatment, although at a much higher dose than you are currently using), that even after stopping the 'done it took several months before I could feel any iv opiate.

About the pharmacies... when you're calling about CII drugs, you are really likely to be told they don't carry it because of theft/robbery. If you go in with the actual script, you will find that at least dilaudid is carried in most pharmacies. Just about all pharmacies stock the 2mg tabs. If you are looking for a higher dose, your best luck would be a hospital pharmacy or one that caters to terminal patients- the types of pharmacies that stock durable med equip as well as rxs. Once you find one that stocks it, they are really good about making sure to keep the amount you need in stock if you give them a little notice about when your next fill date is. It's also a good idea to stick with one pharmacy because once they know you, you don't have to worry about waiting for them to confirm the script with the doc, or verifying it and all that crap. I filled my script last week at a different pharmacy that I usually don't use; they called my doc and faxed the script back to the office to verify because of the quantity of hydromorphone!

Lastly, there really isn't a big difference once you account for differences in dosing between hydro and oxymorphone. They are both wonderful iv and quite wasteful using other methods of admin. Although, none of this is going to be true until you dump your 'done! I would really be surprised if your pain doc even wanted you to be on both.

As an aside, methadone does do a great job for pain, but you do have to take the dose 3 - 4 times a day and it can make you pretty tired once you get to a dose that is effective for pain.


OK, and now on to Dr. Big Poppa......

I have a "feeling" that MILK might contain certain enzymes that might make Opana ER and IR injectable.

You have a "feeling" that milk is going to solublize hydro or oxymorphone? Well, I have a feeling that if hell freezes over and some insane med school decides to graduate you that you will kill patients. Milk has been accidentally administered- it usually happens in the NICU when it gets attached to an iv line instead of a feeding tube. Unfortunately, it is usually fatal. The next time you get a feeling about a solvent, you may want to look into whether or not it is injectable!

This IS true... I do not know yet how I will feel when I come off of Opana because I have not missed a dose...
Other people I know that have taken it recreationally have experienced TERRIBLE withdrawals similar to Heroin and Fentanyl. If you just take it a few times and stop you will feel VERY sick.

Really? You think stopping Opana would lead to opiate withdrawal? Absolutely brilliant! You don't need med school, they should graduate you immediately!

In the hospital, when the doctor sets up an IV of say Hydromorphone(Dilaudid) it is something like 3-5mg, every 7-10minutes you can push for more.

Oops, here you go again another LETHAL recommendation. You could not even give an extremely tolerant person that much hydromorphone every 10 minutes, they would be dead in less than an hour. A normal dose for severe pain is 0.5 mg as a loading dose and 0.1 to 0.3 mg q 10 minutes. I truly hope that you are thinking about dermatology or pathology- you shouldn't even think about dealing with living patients!

Most people would make fun of you for quoting Wikipedia... I won't, but I will tell you that the oral bioavailability goes from 10% to 60% when you get your plasma at peak levels....
My source is the prescribing information from ENDO...

When you get your "plasma at peak levels"??? That phrase doesn't even make sense. You can't change the "level" of your plasma, there is no such things. Now, there are plasma protein levels, or plasma antibody levels, but there is no such thing as a "plasma level". You may want to stick to citing sources that you actually understand!

Last but not least... I attend NYU-Medical, 2nd year... look me up. NO ONE here thinks that you know more about medicine than ANYONE... especially me.

You know, I would have to disagree, I think diacet knows more than you do. You have posted almost 100% b.s.- it either makes zero sense or is just not true! How exactly is anyone supposed to look you up? Are you saying you are in the directory as Big Poppa"? Personally, my guess is that you are a janitor at NYU. [I have nothing against janitors personally] From what you have written, I would be shocked if you were past second year of college let alone 2 year med school.

 

[diacetyldeath]

May be off-topic, but how the hell have you managed to hide your trackmarks from your physician? What "pain" do you suffer from? Is he crooked? How old are you? If you are not old without a damn good backstory of pain how did you get your pain doctor to prescribe some of the most abusable opiates out there?

Not to get mad at you specifically, but I really hate people who go and try to dupe the system. I know that junkies will wise up and accurately fake the perfect illness right down to the period in the book in order to get pain medication. The trouble is, most people who really do need this medication just know they have pain, and because doctors are forced to be wary of drug seekers, they kick out a good bunch of the ones that could benefit from programs because one of their severed nerves does not produce pain the way that their nerve pathway chart tells them it HAS do...

I am a chronic pain patient. And I feel guilt even telling the truth to my doctor for the fear of rejected quality of life preserving medication. It is people who dupe the system that force me to be on eggshells while I am with my pharmacist/chronic pain doc. I live in a part of the Bay Area where opiate use is extremely prevelent, and that just makes everyone in healthcare all the more paranoid...

Like I said I'm not angry... I'm just sad. I have seen DYING CANCER PATIENTS wheeled out after hearing the doc make up some bullshit about medication ceilings they can't go over (which they can) and then talking about how he doesn't use any more than a certain amount of each medication because he gets inqueried if he does.

Sounds like a problem with the system. *shrug* If people weren't so goddamn opiophobic and stuck on the notion that A) Dependency upon any given substance is Bad and B) people should control other people's lifestyles, then there wouldn't be these totally off-the-wall, illogical regulations with respect to CII prescriptions.

I do not feel comfortable sharing more about my illness other than that it is a chronic nerve pain issue. I am seeing a neurologist to see if I can fix the cause rather than continue just masking pain.

In addition, I've been on Methadone for about 6 months now, and I used fairly decent needle hygeine back when I IV'd; there are no track marks to really speak of anymore.

Good luck. Sorry to hear about your situation; you aren't going to stop "junkies" from doing everything in their power to fend off physical opioid withdrawal; it is the most agonizing experience one can endure specifically because the sufferer knows exactly how to alleviate it, and how easily it can be done. The solution to this problem is not to try to stop giving opioids to junkies; it's to legalize opioids for those who can demonstrate a physiological need (whether from dependence or from chronic pain), totally destroying the black market, totally destroying incidence of first-time use.

Just my 1/50 dollar. My opinion is only worth as much as anyone else's.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Anyway, so I got my Dilaudid, finally, tracking down what amounted to a hospital pharmacy.

Now I'm stuck at the step where I thought I'd be stuck: getting the pill IV'able.

They are very TINY pills, so that's a good thing, but then again they're only 2mg, which isn't.

I crushed up 4 of them (8mg total); the resulting amount of powder, while more than I expected, was certainly less than some of the heroin shots I've done.

Another problem here is that I only have 0.5cc rigs (again from my heroin days), so even if these pills are IV'able I doubt I could use the proper amount of water.

Anyway, I added about 0.45 CCs to the spoon, and basically the water was instantly absorbed by the powder. After letting out a large sigh, I added another ~0.3 CCs, and finally there was a solution there, albeit very cloudy and murky.

I mixed the hell out of it in the spoon using the re-capped needle, hoping to get as much hydromorphone into solution in the water as possible. I'm sort of hoping this is where my mistake was; is it suspended in some sort of compound where this would be difficult?

Anyway, finding it still very chalky and murky, I applied some heat. Not enough to boil it, and stopped when I realized it was doing little to nothing to improve my problem.

I sucked up about 0.3 - 0.4 CCs of very clear solution through a cotton; all the murky chalky shit stayed behind on the spoon (but you can see how much water was absorbed by how much I put in compared to how much I got out).

Again, with my tolerance as described (especially as others mentioned, with the methadone), I didn't expect much of anything. I was *hoping* to be able to *feel* an opioid-like feeling at the edge of my consciousness if I *looked* for it.

So I injected. I felt... well, nothing, basically.

I experimented with lemon juice on the remaining chalky shit in the spoon; seemed to have the same failure as water.

Giving up for this session, I ate the rest of the powder on the spoon. 8mg down the drain...

I would appreciate any advice on how one might get these pills into solution. They are generic hydromorphone, Mallinckrodt, 2mg. Any advice is appreciated. I have no problems acquiring larger rigs, or following any other recommended advice.

Thanks for any information
-DD

 

[johnnyb420]

you are going to need bigger rigs for sure.

i would try to get a 3ml barrel at least.

you might want to consider trying a butterfly setup also.

do not use lemon juice dude that is just asking for trouble if you really think you need an acid use vitamin c(asorbic acid) really though i dont see why you would need an acid.

as i mentioned before while you are takeing 110mg of methadone a day your efforts are ultimately going to be futile.

 

[hfrs]

I've had lots of experience with both the generic Mali's and the Roxanes. The solubility of hydromorph HCl in saline is 80 mg/ml, so you can get quite a bit in a small volume. The problem you are running into is the binders and extra insolubles and they are interfering with dissolution. The easiest solution is a bigger syringe and a larger volume of water.

Personally, if I was going to prepare 40 mg (and I am not recommending you start here!) i use 1.0 to 1.5 ml saline. I do use 3 cc syringes, but that is just because of the filter system I use, it is more convenient for that. I am guessing you used a spoon for your first test?? If you can get a hold of some type of vial or test tube it may be a little easier. You can use gentle heat if you are in a hurry to resuspend it, but if left alone the hydromorph will dissolve without heat.

If there is anything I didn't answer, let me know- I'm really very familiar with hydromorph in all its forms. If there is anyway you can get a hold of syringe filters, it would be much safer as you can sterilize as well as remove the tiny insolubles. I would really, really recommend this if you plan on doing this for any length of time. There is a paper that I have posted a few time that specifically discusses the lung damage that happens with hydromorphone and it's specific binders. I don't have it with me on this comp, otherwise I would attach it. I know you said you were aware of the dangers, so I'm not going to preach to you about it. Just don't forget that just because something is fully soluble doesn't mean it won't cause damage. Just be as safe as you can, that's really all you can do!

Oh, one last thing.... if you are stuck with using a spoon and can't find some other type of container to dissolve the drug in, just make sure that after you do the first extraction that you wash what is left over- you don't want to be throwing any of it away or wasting because that is truly opiate abuse!

 

[hfrs]

Again, Johnny brings up good points. You won't need acid with the Mali's though or any form of dilaudid that is the HCl, and you aren't going to feel a thing until the 'done is long gone from your body, or until you get to a dose that will abolish the blocking effects and i don't want to think about how high that would be, that would be another form of opiate abuse!

 

[OverDriven]

This bigpoppax23 guy is the same stupid fuck I got into an argument with in another thread over something similar. He always throws around the med student bullshit and the "look me up!" comment. Problem is he is less educated on narcotics than most non-med students on this forum. Please you cunt...you aren't needed here and if you are in fact a med student, I highly recommemd dropping out. It just isn't your calling.

 

[OverDriven]

When you get your "plasma at peak levels"??? That phrase doesn't even make sense. You can't change the "level" of your plasma, there is no such things. Now, there are plasma protein levels, or plasma antibody levels, but there is no such thing as a "plasma level". You may want to stick to citing sources that you actually understand!

Exactly what I said to him in the other thread. I'm glad to have someone with some education here to back me up. This asshat is no med student.

 

[diacetyldeath]

Again, Johnny brings up good points. You won't need acid with the Mali's though or any form of dilaudid that is the HCl, and you aren't going to feel a thing until the 'done is long gone from your body, or until you get to a dose that will abolish the blocking effects and i don't want to think about how high that would be, that would be another form of opiate abuse!

Thank you. Both of your posts were very informative.

I realize I'm... well, hoping for miracles vis a vis my methadone dose.

I want to be clear here and make sure we're both on the same page -- for some time, it was my understanding that Methadone's "blocking effect" was a myth insofar as the narcotic itself precipitating any other narcotics from attaching to opioid receptors (like, say, buprenorphine, which has a higher affinity and actively prevents other opioids from binding to the opioid receptors to which buprenorphine is already attached, or in the case of later buprenorphine administration, actively REMOVES opioids already attached to receptors), but any observed "blocking effect" was in fact due to the insane tolerance precipitated by high-dose Methadone therapy. What backed up this perception was the correspondingly insane conversion ratios being advertised in narcotic conversion charts -- some of them state that, as the dose of other narcotics increases, the equianalgesic dose of Methadone can actually DECREASE, or, in the case of very high dose narcotics, it increases, but in an exponentially slower relationship to the other narcotic. This phenomenon, in addition to the fact that some charts state that, say, 180mg oxycodone is equivalent to 10-40mg Methadone (per 24 hours), convinced me that any "blocking effect" was entirely due to increased tolerance.

However, with recent research into Methadone's pharmacology, I'm not so sure. WIth Methadone's unique activity at Kappa as well as being something of a NMDA antagonist (like DXM), is it the case that Methadone exhibits further "blocking" effects than sheer tolerance? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? I know that NMDA-antagonization can actually increase narcotic effects and halt the process of tolerance at very high doses, but I also believe I read that NMDA antagonization BELOW that threshold will do the opposite, decreasing narcotic efficacy and have no effect on tolerance buildup. Then there's the kappa activity, which I'm pretty convinced is not very well understood considering everything I read seems to have a different idea as to its effects (or lack thereof).

In any case, back to my point, which is I understand my dose of Methadone will require quite a high hydromorphone dose to feel anything, a dose which is A) As you mentioned, opioid abuse, considering it would probably be 1/3 of my available Rx, and B) Really difficult to dissolve at that volume of powder. I guess I just had some "hope," because I do know that *sigh* I can feel something when I inject an entire bundle of street heroin (don't get me wrong; I've been clean from heroin for a long time, but I did mess around with it until I learned it cost me $80-$100 PER SHOT to feel anything), which is of unknown purity, so I thought, irrationally, just MAYBE, since medical hydromorphone is obviously of known purity, I could feel it at a high but acceptable dose... Oh well.

Here's a related question -- I have take-home doses for Saturday and Sunday. If I skip Saturday's dose and hold out as long as I can on Sunday (til it hurts), do you think I'd feel 8-12mg? I've never tried anything along these lines before; I figure since I'd be hurting that at least some of the narcotic would no longer be agonizing my opioid receptors, but then again a good amount of Methadone is still available in my body, and my tolerance isn't going to change much in two days, so I'm not really sure. Any thoughts appreciated.

Anyway, again, thanks for your posts, they are very helpful and I appreciate them a great deal.

 

[bigpoppax23]

Wow

WOW...
Keep up the good work...
You bunch of junkie noobs...
You have proven so much...

 

[e12dsm]

just fucking be thankful that you guys can get your hands on this shit... you realize how many people out there that would kill for this stuff lol

 

[johnnyb420]

WOW...
Keep up the good work...
You bunch of junkie noobs...
You have proven so much...

who the fuck are you calling noob ??????

looks like you are the one that has not been around, whats wrong poppa your ass still stinging for getting called out on the inacuracies in your posts???

you are diffferent than anybody else around here

lashing out when you are wrong8)

pathetic it looks so much better when a man can stand up and embrace new knowledge when he finds out that he is wrong.

take a look at diacetyl and how gracful his recovery is even in this thread and in the end it is you who sounds like a pouting little bitch8)

 

[hfrs]

I want to be clear here and make sure we're both on the same page -- for some time, it was my understanding that Methadone's "blocking effect" was a myth insofar..........

The short answer is most of the effect is due to a type of cross-tolerance. I can explain more in detail a little later if you are interested- I'm just in the middle of a million things atm. Or maybe Dr. Poppa could explain it better than me, the junkie .

is it the case that Methadone exhibits further "blocking" effects than sheer tolerance?

Lots of very interesting work in this area, which i can get into in more detail a little later.

so I thought, irrationally, just MAYBE, since medical hydromorphone is obviously of known purity, I could feel it at a high but acceptable dose... Oh well.

My short answer for right now... you're not totally irrational here, different agonists give differences in extent of x-tolerance, although it doesn't have anything to do with the oxy or hydromorphone being med grade- it would depend on the actual amount of the drug and which has less of a x-tol with the 'done (as well as a few other factors- more later).

-- I have take-home doses for Saturday and Sunday. If I skip Saturday's dose and hold out as long as I can on Sunday (til it hurts), do you think I'd feel 8-12mg? I've never tried anything along these lines before; I figure since I'd be hurting that at least some of the narcotic would no longer be agonizing my opioid receptors, but then again a good amount of Methadone is still available in my body, and my tolerance isn't going to change much in two days,

Anyway, again, thanks for your posts, they are very helpful and I appreciate them a great deal.

OK, this is the one i just wanted to answer quickly for you, and i ended up answering more than i originally planned. I still have more to add and will get to that at some point. You answered part of this yourself, (in bold- I bolded it).

The other part relevant to this is something I alluded to earlier and is part of my experience. When I was using methadone for pain, I was taking (at my max dose) 160 to 240 mg every 4 to 6 hours. This is obviously a little higher than you are doing with your maint schedule, so I wouldn't expect you to have this problem as long as I did, but I would expect you to see it.

I didn't feel anything i.v. for 3 - 4 months. It was an unfortunate period where i didn't have H access, so I was not able to try that- but I did have a pretty large supply of hydromorphone (as tabs), morphine (amps and contin), and fentanyl (amps for injection only, no patches and the pops hadn't been invented). Even at milligram doses of fent, it felt like I was shooting saline- it was a waste of a ton of good meds, and I still regret the way I went about it.

I had that blocking effect for a good 3 months. During the third month, I started to feel very faint effects- nowhere near what I should have felt at the doses I was trying. I don't even want to put the nubmers up, because they were ridiculous, and I would hate to see someone else try it without the appropriate tolerance.

So, to finally answer your question, I would say maybe but not likely. It's an experiment you're really going to have to do, at least it's a potentially fun experiment! I would expect you may get some weak effects, the longer you wait though and the worse you feel when you finally take it, the more dramatic the effects will seem to you.

I would hate to tell you to go ahead with the 12 mg since you haven't done all that much experimenting in your current state/condition. If you go by a conversion chart, 100 mg oral 'done should be in the range of 7.5 to 10 mg hydromorph i.v. Those conversions are never all that accurate in this type of situation, but it does suggest that you would be okay at 12 mg, assuming you were no longer being affected (respiration-wise and such) by the 'done.



And finally.....

WOW...
Keep up the good work...
You bunch of junkie noobs...
You have proven so much...

Actually, Dr. Bigpoppa, it is you that has proven everything for us, you ignorance is quite blatant and obvious, no need to prove it by us at all!

Also, you still haven't explained how it is you "change your plasma levels". I'm really not feeling too good today, I think my plasma might be too high, can you help me with this?