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Confusion about GABA receptors

You should've listened...

...to sixpartseven.

This is not a place for your little catfight....if you want to continue this, I suggest you email each other (and don't forget to get each other a Valentine's Day gift, either)...

Oh, I was hospitalized for awhile due to a "work related injury" (i.e. crazed out, large patient attack). I can't sit up to type much right now, I just wanted to let you guys/gals know that I missed y'all...I have not abandoned OD/BL...

I tried to get my wife to sign on, but she would have no part of it. :\

Soo...this thread is derailed, and is now considered foul.
Don't pull it again.

3...2...1...0.
 
sixpartseven said:
narutokun, center, and ham-milton.

Quit deraling every thread one of you posts in. If it continues, you wont be around much longer.

I stand by this comment, although I would like to remove the reference to ham-milton from it. Ham-milton, you make some damn good posts, don't cheapen them by getting into a flame war with narutoken :). Just ignore the guy.

Everyone: stop flaming. Stop flaming other people and then reporting THEM for flaming. This goes to narutokun and center, especially.

Thedeadlywar: dude, I realise he brought you into it, but please - if you've reported the post, then there's no need to respond in thread. Let us clean it up :)
 
I'm re-opening this...

...because I think that some good points can be gleaned from this discussion.

However, if the flaming continues, it will be quickly closed, again.
I hope we have an understanding...
Thank you for your cooperation...:)
 
so simple question. does ethanol have anti seizure properties? for example, if two groups of people were withdrawing from benzos and one of them drank alcohol and the other did not, which group would be more likely to experience seizures? or would they be equally likely?
 
^That's what I was trying to explain by making the initial statement which, ok, is not true but would simplify things up (ok actually it was also to tease Ham-milton, but nevermind that part). So I'm not sure about what do you actually mean, ethanol GABA modulation is different from benzodiazepine's ones. It is less complex imo. Ethanol binds to different sites than benzodiazepine's do, evidently even among the benzos there are differences on the binding sites (thus some exhibit more pronounced anxiolitic properties, other more pronounced hypnotic properties, muscle relaxation, etc.). It sounds unlikely to me that ethanol would bind to the especific sites that will help decrease the seizures, as it's so less selective than benzos. It can be possible though, just like one who is experiencing seizures from benzodiazepine withdrawal will have the seizures diminished by administering benzodiazepines, alcoholics withdrawling and in delirium tremens will have their symptoms diminished by alcohol intake (I'm really not sure about this, can anyone confirm?).
 
It is a well known fact that, although a benzo (most likely Valium) will pull an alcoholic out of DTs, but alcohol will not prevent a seizure during protracted benzo WD.

The reason (has already been stated) why is precisely that...they hit on different receptors. It's hard for me to type right now, but if you go over to ADD and search, you will find out why...
 
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So...is it safe to say that one of the differences between alcohol and benzos is that alcohol is actually an agonist at GABA receptors, whilst benzos bind to sub-receptors on the same proteins and potentiate the effects of GABA?
 
Lol, ok let me put it like this:

In terms of drugs binding to receptors, you basically have agonists which bind to a receptor and activate it, or antagonists which bind and do not activate (I know this is HEAPS simplified).

Alcohol is a GABA agonist I think; in other words, it behaves like a GABA molecule would, binding to the GABA receptor and activating it.

Benzos aren't really agonists nor antagonists though; If you think of what we call the GABA receptor as a protein with a few different receptors on it, then a benzo wouldn't bind to the receptor that the GABA molecule does. Instead, a benzo would bind further on down the protein, and by binding there it increases the action of GABA when it binds to the receptor. Therefore, more sedation, relaxation, that sort of thing.

So my question is: does this explain why alcohol cannot be used to prevent seizures from benzo withdrawal?
 
actually ,the euphoria is really only experienced in alcoholics ,alcoholic brains are very different ,THIQ's are made inside the brain and mimic opiods

"The unused natural neurotransmitters begin to build up and combine with the acetaldehyde to form potent psychoactive compounds called tetrahydroisoquinolines (THIQs), which are remarkably similar to opiates. THIQs fit in the same receptor sites in the brain as natural pain-killing chemicals called endorphins and such narcotics as morphine and heroin"



"Two decades ago, Texas researcher Virginia Davis noticed during autopsies of skid row alcoholics that their brains contained an opiate that she first mistook for heroin.. This was puzzling because these indigents did not have the money needed to support such an expensive drug habit. The heroin-like substance turned out to be THIQs that have been manufactured inside their brains when acetaldehyde from the breakdown of alcohol had combined with natural neurotransmitters. Davis's data support the concept of alcoholism as a true addiction stemming from specific biochemical events leading to the formation of an addictive substance similar to opiates such as heroin.

We now know that in heavy drinkers, THIQs displace endorphins and bind with the opiate receptors in the brain. In doing so, they signal the brain to stop producing endorphins, As the natural endorphin supply declines, more and more alcohol is needed to produce more THIQs to replace the natural endorphins and bind with opiate receptors to create feelings of well-being.

At the University of Texas, researcher Kenneth Blum, M.D., found that restoring these natural endorphins and neurotransmitters destroyed or depleted by alcohol will reduce cravings for alcohol and restore normal moods."

keep in mind this is the ALCOHOLIC BRAIN ,i have the references if needed...


i was a classic allergic/addicted alcoholic ,i experienced HORRID withdrawls from alcohol ,and the one time i took a benzo it did help the shaking and anxiety,but i still threw up etc ,as the benzo didnt result in more THIQ's so i got no euphoria
 
Mr Blonde said:
Lol, ok let me put it like this:

In terms of drugs binding to receptors, you basically have agonists which bind to a receptor and activate it, or antagonists which bind and do not activate (I know this is HEAPS simplified).

Alcohol is a GABA agonist I think; in other words, it behaves like a GABA molecule would, binding to the GABA receptor and activating it.

Benzos aren't really agonists nor antagonists though; If you think of what we call the GABA receptor as a protein with a few different receptors on it, then a benzo wouldn't bind to the receptor that the GABA molecule does. Instead, a benzo would bind further on down the protein, and by binding there it increases the action of GABA when it binds to the receptor. Therefore, more sedation, relaxation, that sort of thing.

So my question is: does this explain why alcohol cannot be used to prevent seizures from benzo withdrawal?
Not really, the explanation was given on that other post I made...
Ethanol is a GABAa agonist yes, it binds to a variety of GABAa subtypes; benzo's do the same but to other subtypes and modulate the GABAa receptors; I think you are having problems with the following terms: binding and modulation.
 
Ham-milton said:
There are all sorts of GABA receptors- tolerance and dependence is determined by which receptors they bind to.

Exactly. GABA is pretty complex, and it seems as if scientists have a long way to go when it comes to learning how all GABA drugs work, but I guess that could be said about any receptor in the brain.
If you over-simplify, it seems like you could substitute alcohol for benzos, but they bind to different types of GABA receptors and don't seem to be very cross tolerant. GABA is more like a class of receptors, not a specific receptor.
I haven't read very many people's responses in this thread. I'm sure people have already covered this, but I added my input regardless. I think it's good when multiple people state the same or similar view points in their own words so people can fully understand and learn as much as possible.
 
HYDRO_CHRONIC said:
actually ,the euphoria is really only experienced in alcoholics

i'm not sure what euphoria you are referring to here but i just want to make it clear that non alcoholics who consume alcohol can still experience a mild to strong euphoria from it.

their euphoria might be mediated differently but it is none the less a euphoria.
 
To the op: simple answers are what you want I think:
Ethanol is not GABAergic.

Wrong. Narutokun, please stop posting so much misinformation. If you don't know the answer, don't make up one.

One of alcohol's most notable reasons for doing what it does is because it is a strong agonist to GABA receptors.

So...is it safe to say that one of the differences between alcohol and benzos is that alcohol is actually an agonist at GABA receptors, whilst benzos bind to sub-receptors on the same proteins and potentiate the effects of GABA?

There are 'sub-receptors' on the proteins, "sub-units". What happens is that agonists can either mimic GABA on the receptor, like how many opiates mimic endogenous opioids naturally occuring in the body, or they can conform or alter the receptor to be more active.

There are sub-units to the GABAa receptors to which benzos act upon. What benzos do is bind to certain sub-units of the GABAa receptor proteins on a particular neuron, and alter these receptors in a way that makes them more receptive to GABA neurotransmitters in the body.

Alcohol acts as a GABA agonist to certain GABAa subunits, and at higher doses is an antagonist of NMDA, which can cause anesthesia.

There are many GABA receptors throughout the brain and spine. I believe it's the most common receptor in the brain.

Alcohol and benzos act upon varying and different GABAa receptors, as well as alcohol having an effect on NMDA receptors that benzos don't. Many of the GABAa sub-units that benzos primarily act upon, such as the sub-units that prevent seizures, are not fully agonized by alcohol.

Which is why you can't take alcohol to avoid benzo withdrawal.

There are also many subunit
 
im talking about the euphoria i outlined,did i say it was some mistical euphoria that is possibly a myth ,this is true euphoria caused by thiq's that are really remarkable to sy the least ,non alcoholics just feel good

it really just takes common sense ,to see that alcoholics obviously get "better" euphoria from alcohol ,thats why they drink more,they are alcoholics,well we are alcoholics and no drug i have ever done except good pure coke that was cleaned made me feel as good as alcohol did ,its just when i woke up the next day i was in horrible withdrawl,so i drank ,as soon as i woke up till the time i passed out ,and repeated that on binges that would last 20-30+ days

do i really need to disect this more cause i can with references of the people research at HEALTHRECOVERY.COM

lil more about how different non alcoholics are from alcoholics
"Alcoholics and nonalcoholics process alcohol differently. When alcohol reaches the liver, it is changed into acetaldehyde, a harmful byproduct of alcohol metabolism that can damage liver cells. Normally the liver rapidly transforms the harmful acetaldehyde into a neutral substance called acetic acid or acetate. The acetic acid is then converted into carbon dioxide and water. We expel the carbon dioxide through respiration and the water through urination.

Until recently, it was believed that the liver always handles alcohol in the same way. But new research shows that a different scenario occurs among certain alcoholics and children of alcoholics with no drinking experience (Figure 2). Their livers change alcohol into acetaldehyde at twice the normal rate,"
 
Wrong. Narutokun, please stop posting so much misinformation. If you don't know the answer, don't make up one.

One of alcohol's most notable reasons for doing what it does is because it is a strong agonist to GABA receptors.
I said that to tease Ham-milton, dear. If you had read the whole fucking thread you'd know better.
 
here see where you fit in these!!!?


1. Nonalcoholic Chemistry (Normal Drinker)

A6 With a few (one to four) drinks, alcohol has a sedating effect on you.

B3 You probably have no outstanding memory of your first alcoholic drink or your reaction to it.

C5 Your alcohol use is usually light; hangovers are rare.

D4 Typically, two to four drinks are enough for you.

El Usually, no one on either side of your family drinks or has frequently drunk large amounts of alcohol.

E6 Some of your biological relatives come from southern Mediterranean areas of Europe.

F3 Getting sedated by alcohol is the typical response of a nonalcoholic.

G3 Your ability to "keep up with the boys" when drinking at parties is poor. You would consider it punishment to have to drink twelve beers or a pint of vodka daily and simply couldn't do it, no matter what your personality or character. You are blessed with the chemistry of a nonalcoholic drinker



2. Nonalcoholic (Alcohol-Intolerant) Chemistry

A2 Drinking even a little alcohol tends to make you dizzy or nauseated or causes flushing or other negative reactions.

B2 Your first drinking experience made you sick.

B4 Because of alcohol's negative effects on you, it has never had any appeal.

C6 Even a little alcohol may give you lingering effects the next day.

D5 Because you dislike the way even a little alcohol affects you, you don't drink.

E8 Your family may be of Oriental extraction and you may possess only one alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme in your liver.

F3 Getting sedated by alcohol is the typical response of a nonalcoholic.

F9 Alcohol offers you no rewarding highs; it only upsets you physically.

G3 You learned quickly that you are alcohol intolerant and you avoid drinking.



3. Nonalcoholic Hypoglycemic Chemistry (May Mistakenly Be Labeled Alcoholic

Al A little alcohol tends to make you light-headed, spacey, and uncoordinated.

A8 If you are a female hypoglycemic you often want and use more alcohol premenstrually; your altered hormonal levels depress glucose metabolism, resulting in severe sugar cravings. Alcohol can temporarily correct this by supplying your brain with glucose, its vital fuel.

B3 Your first drinking experience probably does not stand out in your memory.

C6 You usually get a hangover from moderate drinking because alcohol triggers an outpouring of insulin, which creates mild to severe insulin shock and symptoms of fatigue, confusion, depression and irritability.

D8 If you are a woman, you may drink more alcohol premenstrually.

D9 The effects of one or two drinks on your empty stomach are dramatic. You almost certainly feel a quick lift followed shortly thereafter by light-headedness, confusion grogginess, clumsiness, and weakness.

El Quite possibly, no one in your family is a heavy drinker. Or...

E7 A close relative may be alcoholic, but even a few drinks make you spacey. In certain alcoholic families, one or two children may inherit the tendency to abnormal glucose metabolism (hypoglycemia) but be spared the high tolerance for alcohol that can lead to alcoholism.

F3 You may be the type of hypoglycemic who tends to become light-headed and sleepy rather quickly as a result of drinking alcohol.

F10 You usually feel a quick sense of well-being from a drink or two.

G3 You never could handle much alcohol. You don't need much to raise blood-sugar levels; a drink or two gives you the temporary lift you seek.



4. II ADH/THIQ Alcoholic Chemistry

A3 Alcohol gives you energy and improves your performance. or...

A5 It used to do this, but now it just stops the shakes and restores you to normal.

A9 You need several drinks to get the feeling you seek.

A10 Alcohol is stimulating the production of endorphins; gradually, this will inhibit natural production of these opiates. Depression can develop as natural endorphins become less available; drinking temporarily relieves your depression.

El Your first drinking experiences were pleasant; alcohol didn't make you sick.

C2, C4 Alcohol causes few adverse effects; your hangovers were rare in the heyday of your drinking, but years or even decades later liver damage changed the picture.

Dl You can handle a lot of alcohol. For many years you did not ordinarily have hangovers or experience other alcohol-related consequences.

D7 Besides your ability to handle a lot of alcohol well, you tend to be a Type A personality compulsive with a strong sex drive; you require very little sleep to function efficiently.

E2 A close relative has shown a pattern of high alcohol tolerance.

E5 Your ancestors are predominantly northern European or Native American.

F2 After years of handling a lot of alcohol super normally, you are finally showing signs of the damage alcohol is doing to your brain and nervous system.

F4 Alcohol serves to rev up rather than sedate you; you can party for long periods with few or no signs of intoxication.

F6 Alcohol helps you handle situations that make you anxious.

G1 You had a high tolerance for alcohol even as a teenager. Or...

G2 Your tolerance increased markedly with continual use of alcohol. Or...

G4 Your high tolerance of yesteryear has declined after a long drinking career.



5. Allergic/Addicted Alcoholic Chemistry

A4 Alcohol will exhilarate you at first, but you often lose control and may drink until drunk.

B2 You probably can remember getting sick after your first drinking experience. At the time, your body was able to tell you how it felt about alcohol. With repeated use, your body was forced to adapt and accommodate alcohol. The result is the altered response of allergy/addiction.

C1 You usually have serious after effects the morning following heavy drinking because of the toxicity of alcohol to your allergic body.

C3 Depression usually follows a night of heavy drinking.

D2 You often can't predict or control how much you will drink at one time because alcohol quickly alters your brain's ability to make choices.

D3 You may go without alcohol for days, weeks, or even months, but when you drink, you tend to binge, sometimes for several days.

D6 Daily exposure to such chemicals as gasoline, formaldehyde, printer's ink, and hydrocarbons can easily intoxicate your sensitive brain and set off cravings for alcohol. If you work around these chemicals you may notice an overwhelming urge to drink immediately after work.

E2 Typically, you have a close relative with a similar drinking pattern. Or...

E5 Your relatives are all teetotalers for good reason. Chances are you are of predominantly northern Europe or Native American background.

Fl Your personality and behavior are often dramatically affected by alcohol because your brain and nervous system are easy disrupted by alcohol's toxicity.

F5 When drinking, you often engage in arguments and bar fights with anyone, even total strangers.

F6 Alcohol tends to mediate your high levels of anxiety and is your preferred way to deal with stress.

F8 The physical changes alcohol triggers in your allergic brain can result in irrational or bizarre behavior; contrary to appearances, you have little control over these actions once you are locked into this altered brain state.

G5 You often can't control how much you drink.



6. Omega-6 EFA (Essential Fatty Acid) Deficient Chemistry

A7 You know you can temporarily relieve depression by drinking alcohol.

B1 Your first drinking experience produced immediate relief from long-standing depression.

C3 Your depression returns after you stop drinking.

D10 You drink daily (or frequently) to prevent depression from returning.

E2 You have relatives who are alcoholics and/or depressed; there may have been some suicides in your family.

E3 Your ancestry is predominantly Scandinavian, Irish, Welsh, or Scottish.

F7 You have come to depend on alcohol for relief from depression present since childhood.

G1 Your tolerance for alcohol probably has increased over the years. Or...

G4 Your tolerance may be much reduced after years of drinking which has caused liver damage.
 
I said that to tease Ham-milton, dear. If you had read the whole fucking thread you'd know better.

Go fuck yourself, don't need to be a condescending asshole. I did read the whole fucking thread, doesn't make it okay to post misinformation even if it's a joke.

Quit flaming everyone, jesus christ.

But new research shows that a different scenario occurs among certain alcoholics and children of alcoholics with no drinking experience (Figure 2). Their livers change alcohol into acetaldehyde at twice the normal rate,"

Does this process (alcohol to acetaldehyde) slow down if an alcoholic stops drinking for a while?
 
even when i stoped drinking well ,just took time off to recover from the no food ,no liquids cept alcohol binges ,when i drank again ,i still felt euphoria within the same amout of time i felt before whil on a binge ,and still felt the euphoria from just half a beer.....

im sure the answer you are looking for is in detail on the site but im tired right now ill look it up for ya tomorra
 
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