Harm Reduction Cold Water Extraction (CWE) Mega Thread & FAQ v2.0

[Scrofula]

The invisible strands swirling around are distortions from solvent at different densities mixing. That can happen with extreme temperature differences or with different concentrations of solutes.

Same as pouring freezer-vodka slowly over ice or warm mixer. It's definitely not unique to codeine.

You could get the same stirring a very salty solution that you let sit.


It sounds like you're just washing with very cold filtered water. You should expect to see those swirls when it meets the first, warmer, saltier (as in, drug salts) solution. It is not indicative of any additional drug, but it doesn't mean there's none, either. I don't see any issue with the protocol.

It's a question of whether absolute temp or time at low temperature is more important to crash out your acetaminophen.

At -24C, you don't have very long before your water freezes, and since you don't stir, hard to know if the temperature is uniform throughout your glass. Leaving it at 4C in your fridge overnight might be more effective.

 

[Flowerpotman]

At -24C, you don't have very long before your water freezes, and since you don't stir, hard to know if the temperature is uniform throughout your glass. Leaving it at 4C in your fridge overnight might be more effective.

Thanks for the confirmation re the distortions. I noticed they showed up more/looked more distorted when the resulting mixture was stronger in effect.

I left it in overnight last night and this morning it filtered through really cloudy. I did another filter cycle (I use 2 coffee filters at a time) but it was still cloudy, so I did a third filter using 3 filters. And even then it was slightly cloudy. Now I'm not sure what's going on. I think I'm going to experiment with different methods.

I also thought I posted a thread on this but I guess not or maybe I forgot to post it lol; recently I've been getting hardly any effect from a CWE. Like it covers the withdrawal but it doesn't help with my painkilling and there's no euphoria. I've been using potentiators with no avail. I know that there's some loss of codeine doing a CWE but I compensate for that by making a shit load of the stuff... 400-500mg a night. But straight up 120mg codeine has a much much stronger effect. I need to investigate. Been looking into getting capsules to help it skip my stomach out... maybe it's that that's killing the liquid codeine CWE. I'm boring myself now.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

Thanks for the confirmation re the distortions. I noticed they showed up more/looked more distorted when the resulting mixture was stronger in effect.

I left it in overnight last night and this morning it filtered through really cloudy. I did another filter cycle (I use 2 coffee filters at a time) but it was still cloudy, so I did a third filter using 3 filters. And even then it was slightly cloudy. Now I'm not sure what's going on. I think I'm going to experiment with different methods.

I also thought I posted a thread on this but I guess not or maybe I forgot to post it lol; recently I've been getting hardly any effect from a CWE. Like it covers the withdrawal but it doesn't help with my painkilling and there's no euphoria. I've been using potentiators with no avail. I know that there's some loss of codeine doing a CWE but I compensate for that by making a shit load of the stuff... 400-500mg a night. But straight up 120mg codeine has a much much stronger effect. I need to investigate. Been looking into getting capsules to help it skip my stomach out... maybe it's that that's killing the liquid codeine CWE. I'm boring myself now.

Sorry if you've already said this mate but what kind if tablets are you starting with? Just straight co-codamol? I used to do these all the time when I was on painkillers and had great success

This is what I did.

1) Dump tablets in cold (ish) tap water...about 200ml for a couple of boxes of generic co-codamol (codeine and paracetamol).

2) Stir occasionally until all tablets have dissolved

3) Put one filter paper inside another and carefully wet both completely, taking care not to tear them.

4) Place filter papers over a large glass and pour the mix into the papers

5) After an hour or 2 the drip should have stopped and the filter cake should look fairly dry (no visible liquid on top of the gunk).

6) You could drink this now but I'd take it and either put in the fridge for 15 minutes or just drop a couple of ice cubes into the liquid so it's now quite cold...this forces any remaining paracetamol in your solution to precipitate out due to the lowering of the temp and paracetamol reduced solubility in very cold water.

7) Repeat the filtering process but you only need 1 paper this time (still make sure to wet it first)..... Now because there's virtually no insoluble crap left in the water, it should run through in a few minutes this time. .If you look at the filter paper after all the liquid has run through there will Probably be a dusting of white powder on it ..this is mainly the last bit of paracetamol that you forced to precipitate out if solution when you cooled the solution down.

The end product will not be completely clear due to some of the soluble binders in the product being in the liquid (these won't hurt you) but definately shouldn't be cloudy if normal co-codamol are used (but maybe for codeine and ibuprofen due to different tablet formulations).

If you want you can add some orange or lemon squash to the liquid and neck it in one with a chaser of something to take the taste away...

If sensitive to histamine release, I used to take 20mg promethazine about 15 minutes befoe consuming the solution.

Like I say, years ago when I was on pain meds and would run out early I'd do this all the time.

Follow these instructions and you can't go wrong bud




If you follow that then you can't go wrong

 

[Forever Changes]

Thanks for the confirmation re the distortions. I noticed they showed up more/looked more distorted when the resulting mixture was stronger in effect.

I left it in overnight last night and this morning it filtered through really cloudy. I did another filter cycle (I use 2 coffee filters at a time) but it was still cloudy, so I did a third filter using 3 filters. And even then it was slightly cloudy. Now I'm not sure what's going on. I think I'm going to experiment with different methods.

I also thought I posted a thread on this but I guess not or maybe I forgot to post it lol; recently I've been getting hardly any effect from a CWE. Like it covers the withdrawal but it doesn't help with my painkilling and there's no euphoria. I've been using potentiators with no avail. I know that there's some loss of codeine doing a CWE but I compensate for that by making a shit load of the stuff... 400-500mg a night. But straight up 120mg codeine has a much much stronger effect. I need to investigate. Been looking into getting capsules to help it skip my stomach out... maybe it's that that's killing the liquid codeine CWE. I'm boring myself now.

what potentiators did you use? Grapefruit juice?

I really need something that will synthesise more of the enzyme I lack to metabolise the codeine properly.


@Backfromthebrink

Thanks for the detailed procedure. Ibuprofen combo is definitely harder to CWE becaue of its sludgy consistency.

when you were CWEing a lot did you have regular liver function tests for peace of mind?

 

[Scrofula]

You do not want to use grapefruit juice with codeine. The juice inhibits your liver enzymes, but in this case you want your liver enzymes working so they can convert the codeine into morphine.

If you're not getting effects from the codeine anymore, and all else is equal, I'd call that probable tolerance. Right? Take a break for a while and see if it comes back.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

what potentiators did you use? Grapefruit juice?

I really need something that will synthesise more of the enzyme I lack to metabolise the codeine properly.


@Backfromthebrink

Thanks for the detailed procedure. Ibuprofen combo is definitely harder to CWE becaue of its sludgy consistency.

when you were CWEing a lot did you have regular liver function tests for peace of mind?

Only once and that was a coincidence as it was for something else but rhey were fine...why use ibuprofen? It's more expensive and harder to do....just get co-codamol and follow the procedure I outlined ..

2 packs is 512mg caffine will cost only about 4 quid and with the method I outlined you'll get 95+% of the codeine out and minimal paracetamol....no potentiators needed and definately not grapefruit juice ..it inhibits CYP-450 and you need that pathway..

Do it exactly as I've said and you can't go wrong.

 

[Forever Changes]

You do not want to use grapefruit juice with codeine. The juice inhibits your liver enzymes, but in this case you want your liver enzymes working so they can convert the codeine into morphine.

If you're not getting effects from the codeine anymore, and all else is equal, I'd call that probable tolerance. Right? Take a break for a while and see if it comes back.

I don't think it's tolerance because I haven't felt any effects from CWEing codeine ever. Even drinking the linctus seems to do nothing except give me a slightly groggy-head feeling and some itchiness....

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Even drinking the linctus seems to do nothing except give me a slightly groggy-head feeling and some itchiness....

Well sometimes that's all you're going to get out of Codeine. Upping the dose will increase that feeling, but with plenty more itching to go with it as well.

 

[Backfromthebrink]

Well sometimes that's all you're going to get out of Codeine. Upping the dose will increase that feeling, but with plenty more itching to go with it as well.

Yeah..this.

Even for opiate nieve people, codeine isn't that special. Personally, I liked it when I was opiate nieve but once my GP put me on things like morphine, oxycodone, fentanyl etc. codeine was only good for temporarily holding off withdrawls...and not that good even for that with a tollerence...

I've noticed you've asked a lot of questions about OTC opiates mate, if I may ask, why are you so keen to try them? Are you in pain? Can't you ask your GP for something?

 

[Flowerpotman]

People! I had an experiment. I picked up some ibuprofen and codeine and tried CWEing them with little luck. The resulting mixture from both lots were very cloudy but there was a lot of pulp too... so I figured it safe and drank it. It tasted horrible. salty almost. Offensively bland. Effect was equal to a cocodamol CWE.

So I got some more cocodamol and tried that following new instructions. Rather than mixing it and placing it in the freezer for 15 mins till it almost froze; I put it in the fridge overnight. It poured out crystal clear and packed quite a punch.

My body is still not processing this right. Same brand tablets. Same process. Same everything and sometimes it will be nice and high and some it will offer no effect whatsoever. I?m sure it?s my liver being shit. I don?t drink alcohol but my enzyme levels are all over the place and have been for decades.

I?m also thankful for having a cool doc. I told him I took more codeine than I should have and he asked me not to do it again and gave me another months worth after the first months worth over the course of 3 days.

 

[Flowerpotman]

I tell you what though I picked up some Sominex for potentiating. As nothing else has worked. Whilst I don?t think it pushed the high up it did reduce my stress and anxiety levels. Definitely a good partner drug.

 

[Scrofula]

You had codeine+ibuprofen tablets and tried to CWE the codeine from the ibuprofen?

Yeah, that's a case where the barely-bad-for-you ibuprofen got extracted instead. Ibuprofen is freely soluble in water, hot and cold, moreso than codeine.

Plus, bad news: Sominex is Benadryl-for-sleep (ie, 50mg instead of 25mg) which is diphenhydramine, an inhibitor of CYP2D6.

Not going to potentiate your codeine high. At all.

 

[Forever Changes]

in the UK 'Sominex' is Promethazine although in other places I think it's Diphendydramine

correct me if I'm wrong but either way, both antihistamines are apparently inhibitors of CYP2D6 which is the *last* thing you want to take with codeine, parcticularly if you don't metabolise it well. The only reason you might want to take it is to prevent itching from histamine release but if it stops the codeine from working properly then its pretty pointless, isn't it?

perhaps there are other antihistamines you can take for the itching that don't interfere with codeine's metabolism

 

[Forever Changes]

Yeah, that's a case where the barely-bad-for-you ibuprofen got extracted instead. Ibuprofen is freely soluble in water, hot and cold, moreso than codeine.

.

are you sure? According to the first post in this thread it says that Ibuprofen is similar to APAP and Aspirin, in that it's pretty insoluble in cold water, the colder the water, the less will dissolve.

 

[Scrofula]

You are right and Sominex is DPH in USA and Canada, but promethazine in the UK. (And apparently the Indian version of peptol-bismol.)

Doesn't matter, since all five 1st gen antihistamines are CYP2D6 inhibitors.

Now, for solubility, keep in mind that nearly everything that isn't a gas at ambient pressure, will be more soluble in hotter water, including codeine.

I went based on the big acid moiety hanging off of ibuprofen, which with enough water to keep the pH at 7 and up, assures it'll have a charge and remain freely water soluble, even with a oily overall structure. Codeine has a polar group, and maybe that nitrogen can keep a charge at pH 7, maybe not. So I figured ibuprofen would be easily more soluble.

Well, its not so clear. What is clear: adjusting the pH will have a dramatic difference, and tweaking that is probably better yielding and easier than temperature dependence. Really, at pH 7 they should both be quite soluble in water. Raise the pH and the ibuprofen will stay water soluble, lower it and it'll readily drop out of solution.

The pKa of ibuprofen is an oddly high 4.8-5.0, so adding a lot of lemon juice should knock it right out, as long as there aren't a lot of buffers added to the pill binders. You're aiming for a final pH of three or under, and lemon juice comes in at 2. Once you've filtered the slurry, you can always dilute it back to drinkability.

The codeine will remain polar at a pH under 3, and if that nitrogen will take a charge, it will absolutely be charged at that pH, and remain soluble.


If you looked up ibuprofen at wikipedia or pubchem, you may see it listed as "practically insoluble". Yeah, similar to amphetamines, that's for the uncharged form, the "acid" form of the molecule. We're interested in sodium ibuprofen, which is soluble in water at 25C and pH 7 to 100mg/mL. The pills might not contain sodium ibuprofen, but they will become that "form" when smashed and stirred in some hot water.

 

[Forever Changes]

^so, to cut a long story short, you're suggesting that CWEing with Ibuprofen/codeine tablets doesn't work?

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It'll work. You just need to add lemon juice to the water

 

[Backfromthebrink]

Bit lost as to why you're using ibuprofen/codeine combos anyway when paracetamol/codeine combo is half the price and doesn't hsve any of the ph based problems...a CWE of normal co-codamol tablets is incredibly simple to do and costs pennies...I don't see why you would want to use ibuprofen.

Also dihydeicodeine/paracetamol is worth trying as it doesn't have the same enzyme related issues....it is much more expensive though..

 

[Scrofula]

Up until a couple days ago, I woulda said, why don't you just eat the Codeine with Ibuprofen? Ibuprofen being so much less toxic in overdose than APAP.

Then I read ibuprofen makes men sterile have to compensate for their hypogonads. So I still don't see why you can't eat them. It would take a long time for my gonads to shrink to normal, but I don't want that after all.



And so why don't more people ask for things like Vicoprofen or Percodan? APAP has had its murderous day. Tens of thousands of them.

 

[Flowerpotman]

I had a big CWE last night. So my story is that I?m actually on codeine and gabapentin for pain but I?m slowly reducing. I?m already down A LOT with the gabapentin as I used to be on 600mg Pregablin a day and now I?m just on 200mg gabapentin a day... an insanely massive reduction. But what happened is codeine stopped being effective for me. It?s not tolerance as my doc thinks it is as it comes and goes. I believe it?s an enzyme problem but they?re not bothered in pursuing it despite liver issues running in literally my whole family. Meh!

I used to have a big 512mg codeine CWE up to 4 times a day. Now I have a small amount in the morning and a 256mg CWE in the evening to relax and sort my pain out so I can sleep through it.

Last night I had that 256mg but with 40mg Sominex too (promethazine here). I didn?t feel anything. So yeah I guess it is a 2D6 inhibitor. Tonight I?m going into it pure with an empty stomach only. I last had a small 128mg dose this morning and nothing for 12 hours so far. Weirdly I feel like I could just stop right here but I do enjoy not feeling crippling pain!

Does psudophedrine inhibit it? I can?t find anything bad so it probably doesn?t. I just wanna be sure. Sudafed really puts me in a good place. Makes me feel calm and I can read much more easily.

Btw I take my CWE with some lime cordial juice. It?s ?2 from Sainsbury?s or Tesco?s. Rose is the brand name. It?s very very tarty so nearly 100% covers up the CWE taste.