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Can you be born gay or is it a choice?

Nom de Plume said:
The addition of excessive emoticons can be inferred as a tacit admission of insincerity or satire. However, despite what your honest opinion may or may not be, I will still give a retort (if not for the reason to address those who do hold these notions, than at least for the sake of merely seizing an opportunity to be argumentative and hear myself talk).

Anyway:

That is a terribly flawed argument, as it is patently founded on an unusually large absense of correct understanding of even introductory-level evolutionary biology.

One ought to be able to intuit most of this by pure reason alone. Nonetheless, people are exceptionally gifted at being stupid.

Using your logic, we can conclude that infants born with severe birth defects choose it so, as they have less than the standard degree of reproductive success required for the existence of our species. Surely, any genotype presenting a deviation from the norm of the phenotype is a choice, no? No--indubitably no.

Organisms get snuffed out or born congenitally unproductive all the time due to lack of fitness. But the fitness of the organism is of no significance. The individual is irrelevant in the process of evolution; only the overall condition and overall fitness of the species is of any consequence in the course of evolution.

Moreover, evolution is reliant upon these individual deviations, as they are (simply put) one of the mechanisms through which the individual, and thence the species, increases fitness—via mutations that benefit the species, like tails or claws or camouflage.

The downside of this is obvious: not every mutation or deviation will be beneficial, and most will actually decrease the fitness of the organism, and occasionally that of the whole species (if, say, the rate of environmental evolution outpaces the rate of biological evolution, and the species becomes moribund or even goes extinct for having not adapted fast enough, to give but one example). That is an ineluctable sequela of some evolutionary processes.

But to reiterate my point, the organism is expendable and nugatory. All that matters is the species. That is to say, the genotype does not import; rather, the phenotype is what matters and this is one of a few determinative factors in the evolutionary trajectory and proliferation or annihilation of the species.

Organismic foibles or genomic glitches are not volitive, but involuntary.

Looked at from another perspective, the individual may reasonably be conceived of as an impotent system of an exiguous, piddling nothing that fluked itself into existence as an element of a much larger and less meaningless system of a set of intraspecific individuals. A set which is itself a mere particle within the immensely more significant and incalculably larger biological universe, whose orders are to weed out all non-hackers who do not pack the gear to survive in its beloved biosphere (FMJ allusion).
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Have you ever seen two gay dogs :) rub wieners together and pork each other in the butt? I believe not! My logic and reasoning is superior :D

It's the complexity of the human brain that makes the choice, not the evolutionary mutated derived trait that produces homosexuality at inception.

Why do some humans like to be spanked and have their anus finger blasted? It's by the complexity of the human brain programmed over time..
 
Teabag Johnny said:
Have you ever seen two gay dogs :) rub wieners together and pork each other in the butt? I believe not! My logic and reasoning is superior :D

It's the complexity of the human brain that makes the choice, not the evolutionary mutated derived trait that produces homosexuality at inception.

Why do some humans like to be spanked and have their anus finger blasted? It's by the complexity of the human brain programmed over time..
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But why does it have to be one way or the other? I totally think your argument about dogs is silly and does not prove anything because I have, in fact, seen two male dogs trying to get it on and generally acting sexual towards each other.

You say the complexity of the human brain makes the choice, but I think it is the complexity of the human brain that makes proving this point one way or the other almost impossible. No two people are exactly alike and people evolve over time, much like our taste buds do. There are things we like as a child but grow out of, and there are things we dislike as a child but grow into. Then there are things we love from the day we are born and will love till the day we die, and things that catch our eye for a moment and then we loose interest. Human sexuality is very much the same way, it is complex and evolving.

Noms de plum made some of the best point which I have made myself about this subject to Blank in TL, like how when talking about foods we like, we dont choose which foods taste good and do not taste good, it just happens. And tastes can change, but they certainly dont always.

I dont necessarily think everyone who is gay is born knowing they are gay, but some know it from the moment they are aware of their sexuality. Some people take longer to figure out their sexual preferences which mean a whole lot more than just Gay or Not Gay. Because human sexuality is very complex and is ever evolving.
 
Teabag Johnny said:
Why do some humans like to be spanked and have their anus finger blasted? It's by the complexity of the human brain programmed over time..
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Also I am pretty sure men love a good finger blasting because their prostate contains a shit ton of nerve endings and it feels so god to them they cum in under a minute, not your lame "programmed brain" theory.
 
Wow... So it's one extreme or another.
Either sexuality is rigidly set in stone by birth, or it's a choice...

No middle ground? No other possibilities?
 
maybe. some things are binary.

you're either pregnant or you're not. there's no middle ground. it's not being closed-minded to say this.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
maybe. some things are binary.

you're either pregnant or you're not. there's no middle ground. it's not being closed-minded to say this.

alasdair
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i believe that's true for either half or the majority of people. But I think it is being closed-minded to think that's how everyone works and that sexual fluidity is just non-existent.
 
Alasdairm was giving an examble of something that is black or white and how in that particular case it is not close minded to say so. He didnt mean thats how he feels about this subject.
 
^ care to talk us through the criteria you applied when you made your decision to be straight?

alasdair
 
Munchkoala said:
Pretty sure free will covers the decision whether to be gay or not.
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Free will would only apply to how one acts upon urges, feelings, desires and so on. For example someone says something that makes you really angry you have free will to be the bigger person and not be violent, or you can hit them or anything imbetween. Thats not the best example but if you dont get it already you probably never will.
 
Has anyone here said babies are born neutral with no sexual preference at inception?

Over time, the brain is programmed to either behave in a heterosexual, homosexual, or a bisexual manner .

So, in actuality, you're not born gay or straight.

And could the person who said they saw two gay dogs porking each other in the butt please post a picture. I find that hard to believe.

And also, if one were to say some people are born gay, then you'd also have to agree that some people are born being attracted to Farm Animals at birth :) That don't make any sense.

My logic is still the best one here :D
 
Teabag Johnny said:
Has anyone here said babies are born neutral with no sexual preference at inception?
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Wrong.

Over time, the brain is programmed to either behave in a heterosexual, homosexual, or a bisexual manner.
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By what or by whom? Society, culture, biology...?

So, in actuality, you're not born gay or straight.
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That's a non sequitur. It is also presumably a false dichotomy, as it seems to me that your argument is based on the erroneous supposition that either:

a.) Homosexuality is innate or inborn, or
b.) Homosexuality is a choice.

That leaves out dozens of alternatives.

And also, if one were to say some people are born gay, then you'd also have to agree that some people are born being attracted to Farm Animals at birth :) That don't make any sense.
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Yes, it is nonsensical. However, that's because your argument itself is nonsensical.

My logic is still the best one here :D
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There is no such thing as my logic, your logic, Chewbacca's logic, or whatever—there's either logic or no logic.

Perhaps your rendition of logic is the most spectacular, but its adherence to the principles of real logic is abhorrent.
 
Nom de Plume said:
Wrong.



By what or by whom? Society, culture, biology...?



That's a non sequitur. It is also presumably a false dichotomy, as it seems to me that your argument is based on the erroneous supposition that either:

a.) Homosexuality is innate or inborn, or
b.) Homosexuality is a choice.

That leaves out dozens of alternatives.



Yes, it is nonsensical. However, that's because your argument itself is nonsensical.



There is no such thing as my logic, your logic, Chewbacca's logic, or whatever—there's either logic or no logic.

Perhaps your rendition of logic is the most spectacular, but its adherence to the principles of real logic is abhorrent.
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Mmmm, I think my logic is better than yours.
 
Teabag Johnny said:
Mmmm, I think my logic is better than yours.
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Reality is the totality of facts, not things. A reality sans fact wouldn't be reality.

And since an opinion is not a fact, it is as considerable as unreality (the totality of non-facts), nonreality, or irreality.

And since I seldom consider notions not proved factual or seemingly factual, you can keep your pathetic opinion—it's far too overpriced to attract potential buyers and terribly too insignificant to attract attention.
 
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