Can you be born gay or is it a choice?

[Clitnhawk]

I mean I'm of the belief that some people are born with a higher likelihood of being gay, however our instincts are typically to reproduce. The truth is we don't really know, if someone was born into a society where being gay is acceptable then they have a higher likelihood of being gay. If someone is born into a society with arranged marriages to the opposite gender then it is less likely that someone will turn out to be gay. ~~~ Idk this shit is mad complicated when you really dig into it.

Sexual attraction and reproduction doesn't mean the same thing. We're not built that way. I may fuck 3~8 times a week, and having OFFSPRING is not the goal. I have a player friend, he bangs about two different women a week, he's "fixed" - and is impossible to have children, but he sure likes to fuck.

Being gay, bi, etc doesn't keep someone from wanting to be a parent... just as I know women who DON'T EVER WANT to have kids. I told a female friend of mine who just turned 40, that I don't look down on her for not wanting kids - some of her friends and family are giving her shit. She made a choice. Better that, then having a kid she doesn't want. By the way ladies, I DO recommend that you don't start a family and getting serious until you are over 25 years old (both men and women). Hopefully you have a serious relationship, you're past drug use (to reduce birth defects) and you have slowed down going to parties. I'm in my 40s, I've only just "slowed down" somewhat because I cannot party til 6am and function later, unlike a few years ago. I(we) still go out 1-2 times a month... but usually we are paying for it the next day. I kind of miss the days of 3~5 days of intoxication, but I can't do it and we don't have time for it. Family first.

I know of a trans-woman (She was a "he") who dates and has sex with women (usually lesbians) and some men. She is quite hot looking, and if you just meet her, you wouldn't know she used to have a penis... but yeah, she dig's girls.

Back to "society" part in which homosexuality is acceptable. Here is where you are wrong. In the GOOD OLD days in this and most other western countries - being in an arrange marriage or because its the THING TO DO and the guy is a homosexual (sometimes NOT knowing it) - he may spend years with his wife and both having "ho hum" sex, they can have kids... but if he's thinking about hunky men, he's very gay. Many gay men IN THE OLD DAYS would also get married, kids - and yet, were active homosexuals. They have the cover of family. This is UNFAIR to the woman, and unfair to the gay man as well.

So while same sex marriage will be legal for the whole USA, it only means more committed homosexuals will be married for love and get the benefits that heterosexuals take for granted. There are important things that happen when you are MARRIED. Simple as that, and why its unconstitutional to prevent gay people from marrying the person they love. Look up the 14th Amendment. here is a snip:

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Gay marriage WILL NOT create more gay people. What it will do, is reduce the number of gays marrying the opposite sex because "they have to".

I meet an excited gay man once - who tried to hit on me. I told him it was rude and he could end up being punched. Turns out, he recently got out of the closet - is still married with kids. So he was happy to no longer live a lie.

Hence, no matter what the leaders of Iran says... YES, there are gay people in their country. We also know that because they execute them. They are given a choice: Prison/death or sex-change. Yep! Sex-change operations in that country is extremely high. because if you are male, who is transgender-ed a woman - then they'll pay to turn you into a woman. But transgender and homosexuality are not the same.

Gay man = likes being a man and having sex and/or romantic relationships with men.
Transgender Man > Woman = in the body of a male. Sees herself as a woman... While usually sexually attracted to men, they can be into women. I've seen that quite a few times, took a long time to sort that out.

So yes, a gay man CAN be married and have sex with women.... he's got an erection thinking of dudes.... he's still gay.

And yes you are right, this SHIT is MAD complicated. Its unfortunate... but at least in the modern world, we're not executing people for being who they are.

 

[deano88]

Perhaps some people were born with a choice and some people weren't. Its as simple as that.

 

[deemeein]

Born without a doubt but with influence from cultural and environmental factors in early development. If it was a choice, the choice is not a conscious one and it is also made very early in life but does not consciously come to the fore until sexual development in your teens. As a gay man I would love to fully believe it was genetic, and I do have gay uncles, so there could be a role, but I think certain exposures at pivotal moments in my life led to full adoption of a gay lifestyle that was inherently in me when I was born - just not switched on. And to be honest, I still debate the point I am trying to make with myself. There will never be a clear cut answer as too much relating to being gay is subconscious and about what the brain finds asthetically pleasing, which is highly subjective. Sexuality as a whole is a spectrum on which we all lie somewhere along an infinite line of reality - therefore no answer will ever be accepted by all as everyone knows something different in the subjectivity of their experience, which is genetic, environmental, cultural and personal in every way.

 

[Clitnhawk]

@Deemeein : yep.... to your last sentence. You are attracted to men, that is the only truth. You can't pray-away the gay or other nonsense. BUT you do have a choice of what kind of person (a man for that matter) you want to date, etc.

@PotatoMan:

Originally Posted by ClitnhawkBabies are not born with a "clean slate". All babies eat, shit, pee, cry and sleep for the first few months - that is for certain. But even before they are born (20+ weeks), they have rudimentary personality for which you can not "teach" - its who they are.

"This is where we do not agree. I do not believe you can be born with a personality. Nonsense IMO."

BWahahaha... you obviously don't have children nor have spent time with babies - talk your mom and tell her that same statement (post back here that she laughed). What my baby son does today and how he interacts with the world, is the same as the day he was born. He's not like his older brother - who was a wonderful & cute baby in his own right, yet easily a different personality than my newest son.

Even having a litter of kittens - crawling out into the world for the first time, I (we) could see which kitten has brave, which was aggressive, which one was cautious, which one was loving, etc. I choose to keep the ones I did because of their personality.

There are things WE, as parents CAN teach our children, as I stated above. If one of my boys turns out to be gay, its not because of our influence. ie: Most gay people are born from heterosexual parents.

I didn't have a father when I was a baby. He wasn't around. I saw him a lot when I was 14 and that was it. Some of my mannerism, the way I laugh and carry myself - is that of my father - WHO I NEVER SAW as a child. Kind of impossible for me to learn mannerism from a person I didn't see or know, huh?

 

[JessFR]

Well, here's my straight person viewpoint on the matter, take it for what it's worth.

I think the issue is a little more complex than it seems. I don't think for a moment that BEING gay is a choice, it can't be. Think about it, what about gay teenagers who've been thrown onto the streets by their parents for being gay. Why would anyone CHOOSE that? Why would anyone choose to be a target of persecution. If it were a choice, there would only be gay people where being gay is tolerated. And it clearly isn't. I for one definitely didn't CHOOSE to be straight. I've been fucked over by guys in relationships before, and being a lesbian is very tolerated where I live, it might actually be easier on me if I were a lesbian. Problem is, I can't choose to be a lesbian anymore than a gay or lesbian person can choose to be straight. Sure I could say the words, but I would never be attracted to another woman as I would be towards a man. It's pretty obviously NOT a choice at all.

As for where this gets complex. I do think that there is a 'gay lifestyle', separate to actually BEING gay, which may well be a choice. Probably all of the people who live that lifestyle by choice are also gay which they have no choice in. But not all gays live that lifestyle either.

It's clearly not a choice, but that still brings up the question of the cause, nature or nurture? Perhaps a bit of both? I don't know for sure, but I don't think it really matters. Even if you are the way you are because of environment, that doesn't make it something that can be reversed or changed now. A lot of us a probably drug addicts for reasons that are more nurture than nature, doesn't make it any easier to NOT be what you are.

I'm not sure how much it really matters what causes it, that's a separate question to it being a choice, and it being a choice is the important part because as long as someone isn't hurting anyone, I don't believe anyone has the right to cast judgement on someone for something they can't help.

That's my view anyway. It's not a choice, it's probably mostly genetic, with maybe some environmental triggers, who knows, it doesn't matter nearly as much as recognizing it as not a choice. The lifestyle may have elements of choice to it. But what does that matter either? I'm not gay, I'm pretty sure not being gay isn't up to me. So it seems pretty obvious that being gay isn't a choice either.

 

[Clitnhawk]

I think you brought up excellent points, JessFR. Some ammo to throw into the face of bigots even.

The part "gay teens, thrown onto the streets by their parents for being gay" - boys (and girls) have been kicked out at age 13 or so! (OMG!)

Lets add to it: Gay teens who have killed themselves - for being gay. Because they couldn't force themselves to be straight.

 

[deemeein]

Clitnhawk it really is tragic the pain and suffering a significant number of gay and lesbian teenagers go through across the world. In recent times my thoughts have been with those in Russia and the awful life environment they have been thrust into. It's a human rights abomination. But I also recognise the problem across the globe, including USA and have read some heartbreaking stories of young gay people who so tragically either took their own life due to bullying and lack of acceptance, or had their life taken from them by outright bastards. Sad and should be remembered in a special way

 

[itsonlyme123]

but maybe we should have to consummate our sexuality before we can claim it. I mean, if you're straight, fucking prove it.

Huh?

 

[JessFR]

Regarding gay couples having children. I'll admit, there was a time when I would say I was against that. My dad abandoned me and I felt like everyone deserved a mother and a father. I was concerned how a child would turn out lacking one or the other. But, regardless of my reservations, gay parenting has happened. And so now it can be studied. And from all the data I've seen, my concerns did not turn out to be the case. Turns out the evidence seems to suggest that while children in single parent households do worse on average. Children of gay couples are pretty much the same as any other children. Turns out it's not a problem. I'm glad I was proven wrong. And so I don't have any objection to it anymore. You gotta follow the evidence even when I turns out to go against your initial thought.

And as for god, homosexuality is not unique to humans, whatever gods plan may be it's clear the existence of homosexuality is a part of it. And regardless, if god exists then it is for god to judge, not us.

 

[JessFR]

Oh and I can't speak for everyone but personally id rather have two gay parents who loved me than straight parents who were abusive towards me. My parents were straight, that didn't stop my dad trying to kill me or abandoning me. In much more concerned about crappy straight parents than committed gay parents who both love their child with all their heart. And the former is a much bigger problem to devote attention to than the latter from what I've seen.

 

[Colonel Contin]

Huh?

It only makes sense in the context of the rest of my post. The poster above me was talking about how arranged marriages prevented homosexuality. In response to which I contended that just because an otherwise gay man is forced to marry a woman, that doesn't mean he isn't gay. I continued by postulating that "one could make the argument that if an otherwise gay man is forced into hetero relationships his whole life and his homosexuality never manifests physically that he isn't officially gay, he's 'homocurious'" (I don't believe this, obviously, but it could be argued). Then I stated that if the above were true, nobody would be 'gay' or 'straight' until they actually physically acted on their sexual urges (thus, virgins could not be 'gay' or 'straight', but would instead be 'homocurious', or 'heterocurious')... hence the comment "if you're straight, fucking prove it" (ie. if you want to officially be straight or gay, then you've gotta prove it by having gay sex or straight sex ('consummating' your sexuality)... otherwise you're just heterocurious or homocurious). Ridiculous, right?

I was attempting to demonstrate the ridiculousness the of idea that 'having sex with men is what makes a man gay' (because I believe that our sexuality runs deeper than the sum of our sexual actions). I thought I was being clever. It seemed obvious, but apparently it was not.

 

[Clitnhawk]

@Col. Contin: I got it

@JeffFR: great posts. When you have kids, make sure you are the best parent you can be.

@deemeein: (nods). There isn't much we can do against countries who have laws that allows them to in-prison and execute gay people. Iran, nothing. Small poor African Countries - we can talk and try to educate, Russia - that's dealing with a deranged dictator who won't reason with anyone. The thing is, as gay rights became better in the USA; A few asshole church-nuts WENT to other countries (African for sure - possibly Russia), said they were doctors and shit - talk to the leaders with made-up bullshit about how gay-people "spread the gay" by teaching children how to be gay, etc. Its sickening.

Many people that are very ANTI-GAY in government... are actually gay. Look at Putin, his super-macho photo shoots make him look... uh, gay.

My gaydar works like shit - but Putin's setting off fire alarms.

Also, check this out: http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/16-homoerotic-photos-of-vladimir-putin#.bxlYaE2Vy

 

[deemeein]

haha loving the horse come pink unicorn with mr macho onboard, am sure he rides it with pride lol

It's a shame there aren't more people out educating the true message of life and love to the world, rather than religious faggots (for want of a better word) who would do anything to cause as much pain and suffering to LGBT communities wherever they can. That's not to say all religious people are like that, my own mum is devout catholic and she has come round to me being gay, took awhile but she still saw through the contextual bullshit that stood in the way of acceptance for her...

Anyway, respect to all of you who can rationalise the sexuality debate with reason. The world needs more of you, but in time each society will hopefully see what's what and do the right thing

 

[Clitnhawk]

In my opinion... organized religion is about fear, anger and death. Fear the angry (but loving) God who gives "free will" but will send you to hell if you don't lick his ass before you die.

Why would a "loving" being - be killing so many people and making them suffer in the "after life"...? it makes no sense? seems rather.... childish of a supreme being who "has the ability to create the universe" to be upset over "his creations" having sex and loving relationships.

Here is one of my favorite charts, please share it:

 

[Colonel Contin]

In my opinion... organized religion is about fear, anger and death.

Western religion is all of these things because it is woven into the fabric of the political/economic/social superstructure. It's a machine of control that capitalizes on man's fear of chaos. When religion isn't holding hands with government it's not so bad. Eastern and Native American religion offers the same comfort of structure without imposing all that fear, anger and death. I think it's okay to assign something divine to the unexplainable... perhaps even healthy. When 'God' isn't shoved down the throats of the general public as this omnipotent purveyor of justice and judgement, questions like the ones in your chart are irrelevant. When divinity isn't held to the standard of being 'all knowing' or 'all powerful', the whole 'good and evil' dialectic is irrelevant. At its origin, religion was a way to repack reality to give people a greater sense of purpose and meaning (and perhaps an incentive to strive for something greater). Religion as we know it just shames us for our humanity and condemns us to hell if we don't fall in line. Kind of a shame.

 

[Clitnhawk]

I feel the same way, with what you posted. Yeah, you won't find Buddhist or Shintoist bombing and killing your because of your different beliefs. I don't consider Christianity as "western" religion. Its still a derivative of Jewish, Roman and Egyptian combined, with lower gods become angels and name changes (Zeus = God. Be he becomes older and don't show is manly chest) Hades becomes Hell, etc. Islam is basically an Arabic version of Christianity, its about 1200 years old or so... and of course has a few changes in some of the stories (Allah = "God", so Christians and Muslims are praying to the same God, and admit it) - started when Muhammad meet a monk.

But, back in the ancient times - religious structure was needed to keep control and organization of civilization. WE NEEDED IT. With technology and knowledge (the enemy of religion - just look back in history, which every discovery is blasphemy) the need for man-made gods become less. Separate from religion, is that being in a church (or group or concert) of people sharing a moment - is uplifting, feels good, etc.

Religion has a place and function... but not when its causing harm to mankind, which in general - it is.

 

[Colonel Contin]

Egypt and Israel, though ancient, are very Western in essence and practice.

...but we digress. I think we were talking about whether or not 'god hates fags'

 

[deemeein]

...but we digress. I think we were talking about whether or not 'god hates fags'

lol Colonel... of course god doesn't hate fags, that's why the devils a male too because they are the opposite forces that love each other and the bottom of one world would be the top of the next surely? some proper male bonding there

 

[Clitnhawk]

Egypt and Israel, though ancient, are very Western in essence and practice.

...but we digress. I think we were talking about whether or not 'god hates fags'

Okay, you got me there. (I think middle-east vs the orient... okay). But yeah, only stupid people think any God hates fags. Its just "crazy bigots who hates gays".

 

[Colonel Contin]

Yeah, just another hateful attempt to control people with religion as a scapegoat. Some people are too chickenshit to 'hate fags' on their own, so they drag 'god' into it. We've established that science does not offer an adequate explanation regarding our sexuality, and pretty much everybody agrees that they didn't actively choose their sexual preference, so it seems like god must be to blame. Our souls are imbued with straightness or gayness or some mix of the two. God made fags. God loves all of his children, and therefore must be bisexual (and a pedophile too, it would seem).

I wonder if there are gay sperm that just go after other sperm instead of seeking out the egg. How ridiculous.

This thread has taken a serious deviation, and may be beyond the point of recovery 8(.