Can abusing Methylone and other stims 3+ times a week, over a year or two, Kill you?

The King of Beans · Oct 15, 2014

Hi all,

Well I just had a curious question. I recently stopped doing stimulants
so much because I started getting some SERIOUS side effects while on them.
I wanted to explain my symptoms/side effects here and see if anyone else has
gotten these? I am sure these are not due to a panic attack because I read
that panic attacks usually last only 10 minutes. When I get these symptoms,
they last all night long, somtimes even days. But then when I abstain from the stimulants
these symptoms go away...so I am trying to figure out (without going to a doctor)
if I have something wrong with me, my heart, or possibly liver/gallbladder...
I know you guys aren't doctors, but I do NOT trust doctors one bit, and I'd rather hear
from experienced users of stimulants about this subject, to hopefully ease my mind. But please
be honest. And I really appreciate any info you could contribute.

Well, to start I googled "Heart attack on Methylone" and found literally ZERO
info on it. All I could find was people who had panic attacks. But this worries
me still, since I am sure my symptoms are not from a panic attack. I am hoping there
is nothing seriously wrong with me...and it's just the drugs that are causing these symptoms.
But take this into consideration- I NEVER got these symptoms when I first started doing methylone,
or other stimulants. Infact I felt great on them. I could breath really good, felt euphoric, etc.

So, I did them quite a bit. I'd say I did them(methylone, 3-mmc, 4-mec, 4-fa, 6-apb, 5-apb, etc I did all of the stimulant RC's pretty much, off and on. I might do a batch of 4-fa one week and then switch to 3-mmc a week later...but I rarely gave my body a break....) I abused them about 3 times a week for a year or so. Off and on.
Some weeks I wouldn't do them at all. But I am worried since I was doing them multiple times a week, sometimes days in a row.....

It's been about 17 years since I've seen a doctor and got my heart
tested. I was heavily into MDMA at that time and was having tightness in my heart area, so that is the reason
I went. Doctor said I had a strong heart at that time, and not to worry. So fast forward about 15 years later,
I get into these RC's and start doing them 3 times a week on average. I even went on binges that lasted a week
or longer. So, I am worried because of that abuse, I might of damaged my heart. Because all of a sudden, out of the
blue I started getting seriously bad side effects, nearly everytime I do the stims now.

I wanted to explain the exact effects I get, and describe them in detail and see if anyone has any opinion on what
it could be. Again, I refuse to visit any doctors, so this is my only hope of getting any info. I would die before
I'd set foot in a doctor's office or hospital again. (I have an extreme phobia of them too)

OK, so a few weeks ago, I did methylone and at first it was great, super hard rolling rush comes over me, but about
20 minutes into it, the middle of the right side of my chest and back (somewhere around my liver/gall bladder area)
gets extremely TIGHT or a tightness feeling in it, like my entire liver, (or whatever organ is there) is being taken
over by the drug. And then at the same time this happens, I sometimes get a very sharp piercing pain as well in that
same area. Especially when I try to take a deep breath. But the problem is, I ALSO get extreme shortness of breath and
can barely breath. So, this all happens at the same time. Sometimes I won't feel the sharp pain, because the tightness is
so bad, that I cannot "break it out" of that area.....(I can feel the tightness is connected to the pain though and if I could just
get the tightness to rip out of that area, it causes that crazy sharp pain...but I got the point to where my body could no longer
get the tightness out. My theory is that the tightness is toxins and that I have liver problems. Since I usually only experience this
WHILE on the drugs, and not when I am sober. Also the frequency that I used them concerns me, as I am not giving my body enough
time to detox the drugs, in between each use. so they continue to build up (Add that to possible liver problems and you can maybe
understand my fear) But the shortness of breath is what really bothers me. It accompanies this tightness. They come together.

The only info I could find on google about this, said to visit an emergency room immediately. It described my symptoms to a T,
but it didn't say what the condition was. I am worried I might have heart failure. As it seems to get worse if I lay down on my back,
so I have to stay sitting up. It really feels like I could die when this happens. I would hope it's just a panic attack, but it lasts all
night until the drug wears off, sometimes into the next day...and then gets better once my body detoxes the drug out of my system in a couple
of days. Keep in mind I NEVER got any effects like this when I first started doing the methylone...so I am worried something could be wrong with me,
and it's not just a side effect from the drug. But then, why do I only feel this when I am on the drug?? Does anyone else ever
experience anything like this, or have any idea what could be going on here? I trust you guys, more than I trust doctors. Doctors are simply
trained to put out toxic treatments and nothing they do or give you is good for you long term.....All of the effective treatments are illegal now
too, which is another reason I won't go. And I am scared to do any diagnosis tests they might offer too. So, I just can't go.
But I am still young, not even age 40 yet....I didn't want to die so young. I just had a dream the other night, and this girl in my
dream told me I'd be dead in 3 years. This could be a good dream though, meaning a change is coming so I am not worried about that...

Just want to make sure that doing the stimulant, like methylone is not too dangerous. It seems like it isn't since I cannot find a
SIGNLE CASE of anyone having a heart attack on it. But I am sure I have a problem with either my heart or liver/gall bladder from doing
my research....just wondering if anyone knows what is the most likely, and if possibly, this COULD just be a panic attack?

I don't get this symptom on caffiene, cigarettes, 6-apb or 5-apb or 5-mapb....only on stuff like 3-mmc, methylone, etc. So, it seems strange..,
you'd figure if it was my heart, that any stimulant would do this. I should also note that I usually drink alcohol with the stims
and it helps the tightness a bit. It helps me breath a bit better, by helping me burp. I know that sounds wierd. But it's like something
is seriously getting "trapped" in the right side of my chest or liver area....and that extreme tightness is just out of this world. Totally
feels like I'll die, as I can barely breath when it happens. It happens suddenly too, usually about 20 minutes into the drug. Recently, I was
able to do 3-mmc and I was breathing fine that night, so it doesn't happen every single time...it seems to be random. But it happens
a lot (most of the time) I also found that drinking grapefruit juice helps some....(even though it's supposed to potentiate the drug!)

Also smoking weed helps me breath better too when this happens....

Well that's about all the info I can think to write right now. Hopefully that is enough info for someone to give me a helpful answer.

I really appreciate your time reading all that and any info you could provide which might lead me to an answer. I know there is no way
to know for sure (Even going to a doctor, they are likely to misdiagnose you)....

My personal opinion is this- There is no diseases (Well there is, but they are extremely rare)...and all "disease" is simply a
nutrient defiency of some kind..and if you give your body what it needs, it will cure itself. So, doctors take the wrong approcah
altogether because they dont treat the victim. They just treat the symptoms with drugs. But covering the symptoms up, doesn't cure anything.

Well, thanks again, in advance. Hopefully some helpful discussion can come about this or some good harm reduction info for others
and possibly others who also experience the same thing I am.

The King of Beans · Oct 15, 2014

Well even if you guys have no idea about these symptoms (Which freaks me out even more, if I am the ONLY one getting symptoms like this.....I searched the entire internet trying to find someone with similiar symptoms/experiences as I have) but can you at least let me know if you think this sounds like heart attack or heart failure? Or do you think it could just be the early stages of heart disease? I am hoping whatever it is, I can reverse it. I found a good site with plenty of info on how to reverse heart disease, but heart failure is much more serious than heart disease. But if I had heart failure, you'd figure I'd get these symptoms when I am sober. I usually only get them on the dope....so I am still being optimistic...

you know what i actually think it is, is connected to my past drug use (about 15 to 20 years back I abused MDMA heavily) and I've had problems ever since. Chronic Diarrhea/parasites and digestive issues. Bad breath, etc. I know I weakened my immune system a lot and never really was healthy since then. But the doctor did say I had a strong heart, so just trying to figure out if I have heart problems or something else.....just now I did this thing, which kinda forces oxygen out of your body...(probably due to being over acidic) and then it seems like this crazy force pushes UPWARDS into my lungs and for a split second, feels like I'll die and all oxygen is removed from my body. Very freaky. almost like if your heart stopped for a second then started up again. But I am low on oxygen,, that's for sure.

Thanks...

theedeadmau5 · Oct 15, 2014

well from the sound of it it seems like you shouldn't do methylone anymore. i don't see this being a panic attack because it only occurs when you have the drug in your system. unless you have created an anxiety towards it and expect something to happen now, and a lot of times people do overthink things and their body creates symptoms of something that isn't ever there. i'm not saying you are doing this, i'm just pointing out that if it were a panic attack then that's the reason. i don't think it's a heart attack because usually pain associated with a heart attack shoots left towards the left arm.

it honestly sounds like your body is just responding to this drug in a negative way. the only way to know for sure if it's heart failure is to have tests done by a doctor. but since you don't want to do that i would recommend not pushing your luck anymore. leave the shit alone.

Twigs · Oct 15, 2014

So you have been doing drugs 3 times a week for a year and you are surprised to experience side effect?

Your liver is what breaks down toxins in your body, so off course you are putting a strain on it by shovelling vast amounts of drugs into your system.

Take a long break FFS. Eat healthy, stay hydrated and get some exercise.

theedeadmau5 · Oct 15, 2014

if you absolutely cannot stop the drugs and you continue to feel pain, start paying regular attention to your eyes and skin tone. if they begin to develop a yellow hue, fuck what you want, you will NEED to go to the hospital right away.

The King of Beans · Oct 15, 2014

I appreciate it guys.

No, I'm ok I can stop doing them. I don't really like em anymore after all this. Just wondering if I did permanent damage of if it's too late now. I think that dream I had that told me I'd be dead in 3 years helped to wake me up too.....but the symptoms just getting out of control, so really I can't enjoy the drugs anymore anyway. Makes no sense to do them. But the advice to eat healthy and take a break was definitely good. That's what I plan to do. Life is more important than a 3 hour high anyway.

And thanks for the warning about the Jaundice. I actually do watch for that all the time (lol) and luckily my skin or eyes are never yellow. I take Milk Thistle and other liver supplements from time to time. Maybe it's not even my liver, could just be some serious digestive issues going on. I really doubt doctors could figure it out. I think whatever I have is not common at all.

Could also just be liver stress from constantly putting toxins in my body. I think I'll be ok if I let my body heal. But I guess I already DID do some kind of permenanet damage 15 years ago from the past abuse. But at least I'm lucky enough to be alive.

Thanks again....

If anyone else out there is getting symptoms like this, feel free to share. I managed to find ONE person a long time ago (back in 2000) on bluelight here (I was under a different account then) who had the same symptoms as me in my chest at that time. It was from abusing beans....basically it feels like a tightness in your left chest area, but when you bend and stretch and move in different positions, sometimes you can "break it out" and it will feel like a stabbing sharp pain. Now I guess that is more common and more people have gotten that now? I really dont know, but I've had that problem ever since...and I am still alive today. But the pain stopped "breaking out" it finally just "stuck in there" and my heart is usually always tight. I believe this is connected to the right side liver tightness problem now. I guess it was just spreading through my body.....but yup, definitely time to stop doing the chems and move on to the next phase of life.

edgewise1 · Oct 15, 2014

Please don't take this as a smartass reply because that is not my intent. But nobody can tell you if this will kilki you, it might it might not.... If you were to ask if you put a loaded gun to your head and pulled the trigger would it kill me then you would get a more definitive answer!

I'm truly sorry that you are having these problems, but quitting this drug will certainly not hurt you. Good luck with this.

《Plasticity》 · Oct 15, 2014

This is gonna be long so I'll NSFW...

NSFW:

Hey KoB, please for your sake put down the drugs and SEE A DR AND/OR CARDIOLOGIST! Okay I don't want to scare you but I just went through a similar thing. I abused the APB's, way too many psychedelics, and also delved into the flourinated amphetamines towards the end of my use and I now have heart valve disease and will likely need a valve transplant eventually, as repair is rarely an option in this type of situation. It's hard to give a number on my use, but I used far less that you. I also haven't delved into any of the newer substituded cathinones or random stims, only minor methylone and mephedrone use about 3-4 years ago and as of late I stuck with the APB's only as far as empathogens go.

I've been the the hospital three times for some similar symptoms as you and everytime they ran an EKG (the test where they wire you up and monitor your hearts activity for 30 seconds), did urinalysis, and took blood and everything came back normal, despite being short of breath, palpitations, chest pains that radiated to my shoulder, and experiencing that chest tightness that feels like someones sitting on your chest.

For a month I was tossed off as having due to the fact that I'm only 21. I didn't take no for an answer and I'm glad I didn't. I made an appointment for the cardiologist and pleaded with him to run an echocardiogram (imaging of the hearts structure) due to the fact that he, also, believed it was a combination of anxiety and muscle pain... Well, it turns out I have valvular heart disease, to what extent I probably won't find out until my follow up next weekend but the damage was similar to that seen in fenfluramine and ergotamine exposure.

The damage to the heart valves is caused by frequent exposure to 5-ht2b agonism, which almost all empathogens are due to their involvement in the release of serotonin, especially the APB series (Ki values for these suggest a massive affinity for 5-ht2b) as well as certain psychedelics. The jury is still out whether or not the FA's are cardiotoxic but I've read several reports of people developing hypertension after use and in the case of 2-fma, TheDudeAbides posted a warning due to his friend having have surgery on his heart valves due to "metabolites building up in the heart". I'm not here to argue with the users if these substances as to whether or not these truely are cardiotoxic, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are. Anyways, to keep this short and sweet... please schedule an appointment for a cardiologist to get the root of your symptoms.

I don't have any advice for your other possible kidney or liver issues so an appointment with a GP may be in order as well. I know if you go to an ER they will likely order a CT scan if you explain your abdominal pain as they did to me when I developed ulcers and didn't know what the cause of my pain and distention was. Good luck, if you have any questions I'll do my best to respond, though I'm not on BL as much as I used to due to a near drug free life since all this. Don't accept no for an answer if your positive your symptoms are real, it could save your life. In the mean time I'll try and find methylones affinity for 5-ht2b.
_____________________________

I found this thread that may be of use: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/733885-Methylone-amp-5-HT2B-agonism

Although it's not clear how much, if any affinity for 5-ht2b methylone has it seems very likely that it does indeed bind to the receptor.

As for the other subbed cathinones, here's this taken from the same thread. I'd be shocked if mephedrone analogues didn't share this affinity for 5-ht2b.

Iversen et al. (2013) screened 14 drugs against a wide range of human monoamine and amino acid receptors in vitro and detected very few submicromolar interactions. The most notable finding was the high affinity binding of mephedrone, 5-APB, 6-APB and 5-IAI for 5-HT2B receptors.

Please, listen to Wombat and get yourself checked out for your sake. At the least, hit up an emergency room but if your released without much info like I was and your symptoms are genuine, seek further medical intervention.

wombat66 · Oct 15, 2014

I don't want to sound too harsh, but ya got to get over your doctor prejudice. Better the doctor's office than the emergency room.

Stop taking drugs for now. Why do you keep taking methylone etc when it gives you pain and makes you feel like you might die? Even if its just panic attacks why do you keep taking it?
Stop drinking for now. If it is a problem with your liver, drinking alcohol in any form is like throwing petrol on the flames.

It could be serious, it might not be. Nobody here can tell you for sure; you aren't going to get that info off the internet.
I'm all for naturopathic approaches to health and healing but for major medical crisis nothing beats modern medical science.

The King of Beans · Oct 16, 2014

edgewise1 said:
Please don't take this as a smartass reply because that is not my intent. But nobody can tell you if this will kilki you, it might it might not.... If you were to ask if you put a loaded gun to your head and pulled the trigger would it kill me then you would get a more definitive answer!

I'm truly sorry that you are having these problems, but quitting this drug will certainly not hurt you. Good luck with this.

Not at all, you didn't sound like a smartass. I agree with you that no one can say for sure, but just wondering if others have heard of any early deaths or heart failure resulting from over methylone use. As for the gun theory...well even that won't kill you for sure! I am not at all suicidal, and never will be....but if I was going to commit suicide, I would never do it by a loaded gun to the head. I've seen a guy survive shooting himself in the head with a SHOTGUN, and also many other reports of people surviving. Usually they end up disabled or with permanent brain damage. Also, it would be a painful death, even if you died, that split second while the bullet is penetrating your skull, before it hits your brain, you would feel the pain I'm sure. I guess the people who do it don't think about that...or the possibility of surviving. There is a certain way I've heard that you have to do it...and even then it wouldn't be painless I bet.

wombat66 said:
I don't want to sound too harsh, but ya got to get over your doctor prejudice. Better the doctor's office than the emergency room.

Stop taking drugs for now. Why do you keep taking methylone etc when it gives you pain and makes you feel like you might die? Even if its just panic attacks why do you keep taking it?
Stop drinking for now. If it is a problem with your liver, drinking alcohol in any form is like throwing petrol on the flames.

It could be serious, it might not be. Nobody here can tell you for sure; you aren't going to get that info off the internet.
I'm all for naturopathic approaches to health and healing but for major medical crisis nothing beats modern medical science.

I do agree that doctors office is better than emergency room. Ironically, the last time I went to the doctor about 17 years ago (when he told me I had a strong heart) it was one of the good, honest doctors. It wasn't my personal doctor...as I don't have one. It was just a doctor that the emergency room referred me to. He not only was honest, but he didn't even charge me for the visit! I think he thought I was a hypocondriac so he felt bad for me. But even so, I just got lucky to have an honest doctor who knew what he was doing. Some of them will lie (or simply misdiagnose you) and tell you that you have some kind of disease just so they can prescribe you a drug. I would never take drugs anyway (makes no sense to treat disease with drugs because drugs weaken your immune system further..and they cannot cure any disease) so the doctors cannot really do anything to help me, other than let me know what exactly is wrong with me, so I can treat myself.

As for Why I take the methylone even with the bad side effects.....Well I guess I was just stupid. I was expecting that maybe it would stop doing that to me...and it doesn't do it everytime I take it. Only about 75% I'd estimate...so I always know I can possibly get a good experience. And also I loved the drug so much, it's hard to quit. But I finally got over it. I actually flushed it in the toilet just incase, but I really don't want to do it anymore after this. I am able to do 5-mapb with no bad side effect (even MDMA doesn't give me bad side effects when I'm on it) so that's good at least. But I won't abuse that either. I think it's time to just finally give up on all the drugs and if I ever do them again, it will be in a responsible manner, such as once a month or something like that.

I agree the emergency room could help you in an emergency, but that's about all they can do. They can do nothing to actually cure or correct the problem and taking their "threapies" will just make you worse in the long run. The best thing to do is to eat well, and meditate and don't take drugs of any kind. Drugs and surgury are definitelty are NOT the answer for heart problems(or any disease really), I learned that through many years of research.

As for the drinking and liver....well I cut way back on drinking. But what I learned about this as well, is that if your liver damage is not caused by alcohol then likely alcohol wont make it much worse. Alcohol in moderate doses is not really all that liver toxic. I feel fine drinking too and my body gives me no warning signs about it. But it DEFINITELY warned me to stop these RC chemicals. Maybe my liver isn't even bad, I don't know. But I think it is, because my breath is horrible and it comes from my digestive system. I have what they call "liver breath" .....so basically my liver is not detoxing stuff properly, so that is what causes the bacteria and stuff to thrive in my system. Also could be candida I guess. I haven't done a colone cleanse in a long time and I ate fast food for many many years, daily. This also obviously added to my problems. I know I had high blood pressure, I tested in a store (although those machiens arent always accurate I am sure I had it, due to my diet) I have since changed my diet and I'm off the fast food now too, so I am making great progress. My main worry is that I already did serious damage. My worst fear is that I gave myself heart failure. I doubt it though...I have to stay positive. Heart failure symptoms can mimick other heart diseases as well. I probably have one of the less serious ones. Maybe it's just Angina, which can be cured much easier than Heart Failure.

I think I got my liver damage from doing the drug overdose back in the 90's. I had a massive OD on speed AND mdma, and this is where I got all my problems in the first place. That's why I went to the doctors back then. And if it wasn't my heart....it's probably my liver. I do get ASCITES from time to time which is probably the most serious symptom I get. But only when I binge on the amphetamines. So I stopped amphetamines altogether and I no longer get the ascites. Ascites is fluid rentention and build up in the abdomen. My ankle has been swollen for years, ever since that OD in the 90's but sometimes the fluid build in my abdomen and I look like I'm fat.....lol I only weigh 125 lbs. But it's difficult to breath when this happens. And what worries me is that I researched "Diseases that cause ascites" and heart failure and cirrhosis are the top 2 causes. ALL of the diseases were serious...so whatever I have, it's serious. But I've survived this long already. The first time I got ascites was probably 15 years ago. I get it on and off. So, if I lived all this time I guess you can reverse any disease or survive indefinitely, as long as you stay away from hospitals like I do.

Honest to god, that is what I credit for my survival...is staying away from doctors. They would of surely "finsihed me off" had I continued to go. Their drug treatments are deadly. Those with cancer, die from the chemothreapy the doctors give you. The cancer is rarely what kills them. If they had just not gone to the doctor and treated themselves, they would still be alive.

EDIT: LOL by reading my response, you'd think I'm on stims right now cuz I ramble so much. But I promise I am not. I think my brain is just permenently rewired because i've always been like this ever since i abused mdma in the past. I annoy people in real life because I talk and explain myself too much. This is how I am sober now

The King of Beans · Oct 16, 2014

CaptainKratom said:
This is gonna be long so I'll NSFW...

NSFW:

Hey KoB, please for your sake put down the drugs and SEE A DR AND/OR CARDIOLOGIST! Okay I don't want to scare you but I just went through a similar thing. I abused the APB's, way too many psychedelics, and also delved into the flourinated amphetamines towards the end of my use and I now have heart valve disease and will likely need a valve transplant eventually, as repair is rarely an option in this type of situation. It's hard to give a number on my use, but I used far less that you. I also haven't delved into any of the newer substituded cathinones or random stims, only minor methylone and mephedrone use about 3-4 years ago and as of late I stuck with the APB's only as far as empathogens go.

I've been the the hospital three times for some similar symptoms as you and everytime they ran an EKG (the test where they wire you up and monitor your hearts activity for 30 seconds), did urinalysis, and took blood and everything came back normal, despite being short of breath, palpitations, chest pains that radiated to my shoulder, and experiencing that chest tightness that feels like someones sitting on your chest.

For a month I was tossed off as having due to the fact that I'm only 21. I didn't take no for an answer and I'm glad I didn't. I made an appointment for the cardiologist and pleaded with him to run an echocardiogram (imaging of the hearts structure) due to the fact that he, also, believed it was a combination of anxiety and muscle pain... Well, it turns out I have valvular heart disease, to what extent I probably won't find out until my follow up next weekend but the damage was similar to that seen in fenfluramine and ergotamine exposure.

The damage to the heart valves is caused by frequent exposure to 5-ht2b agonism, which almost all empathogens are due to their involvement in the release of serotonin, especially the APB series (Ki values for these suggest a massive affinity for 5-ht2b) as well as certain psychedelics. The jury is still out whether or not the FA's are cardiotoxic but I've read several reports of people developing hypertension after use and in the case of 2-fma, TheDudeAbides posted a warning due to his friend having have surgery on his heart valves due to "metabolites building up in the heart". I'm not here to argue with the users if these substances as to whether or not these truely are cardiotoxic, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are. Anyways, to keep this short and sweet... please schedule an appointment for a cardiologist to get the root of your symptoms.

I don't have any advice for your other possible kidney or liver issues so an appointment with a GP may be in order as well. I know if you go to an ER they will likely order a CT scan if you explain your abdominal pain as they did to me when I developed ulcers and didn't know what the cause of my pain and distention was. Good luck, if you have any questions I'll do my best to respond, though I'm not on BL as much as I used to due to a near drug free life since all this. Don't accept no for an answer if your positive your symptoms are real, it could save your life. In the mean time I'll try and find methylones affinity for 5-ht2b.
_____________________________

I found this thread that may be of use: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/733885-Methylone-amp-5-HT2B-agonism

Although it's not clear how much, if any affinity for 5-ht2b methylone has it seems very likely that it does indeed bind to the receptor.

As for the other subbed cathinones, here's this taken from the same thread. I'd be shocked if mephedrone analogues didn't share this affinity for 5-ht2b.

Please, listen to Wombat and get yourself checked out for your sake. At the least, hit up an emergency room but if your released without much info like I was and your symptoms are genuine, seek further medical intervention.

Thanks very much, CaptonKratom, for the detailed response. This is just what I needed to read. I think you just helped me put the final nail into the drug coffin. I don't ever want to do the methylone again, not even once a month. Now that I read what you wrote, I can see that most likely I do have heart problems (and it's obvious by my body's warning signals) So this just helped me alot what you wrote. This should scare me away from wanting to do them again. Do you feel the symptoms when you are sober too? Or was it only when you were on the RC's? Just today (and right now) I am getting some symptoms of numbness in my left area, right by my heart. It feels like my heart is not getting enough oxygen. But it's not the same as the "shortness of breath' symptoms I was describing earlier. This is another symptom, but I also got this for the first time about a year ago after binging on 3-mmc for 9 days straight. I really thought 3-mmc was safe since I did it like 3x a week for months with no bad effects. But what a fool I was for doing it 9 days in a row. That is what I believe really messed me up. Ever since then is when I started getting these breathing problems on the stims...and havent been able to truly enjoy them since then.

Well I wish you the best and I hope your valve damage isn't too serious. I can provide a link for you, that I found which has some awesome natural threapies for heart disease. They said doing these everyday WILL REVERSE the disease and cure it! I know that sounds crazy, but you have nothing to lose by trying it. I truly believe in this approach. I doubt you will need surgury if you take this route (Same route I plan to take)

Your heat can build new arteries if you supply copper. But copper is dangerous to take in a supplement, so you want to take CHLOPHYLL extract, the liquid kind. This will build new red blood cells and help your hear and supply the copper it needs in safe doses. Also UNREFINED (not white) sea salt is mandatory as it also supplies vital micro nutrients for your body and heart. The number 1 thing though is CO ENZYME Q-10....you need to do daily excercise so your body can produce enough of this. And then meditation and spiritual healing is also a MUST as our health is not just physical (another reason why doctors are failures, because they don't address the crucial mental/spiritual aspects of disease) I will provide the link for you in minute. I just have to find it.

As for the FA's....YES YES they are definitely cardiotoxic! Big time! (I am sure now by reading your response that I have heart problems and 4-fa makes them worse) More than the apb's and more than the 3mmc....I know from experience I actually stopped doing 4-fa altogether a while back (which was my favorite drug) because I got serious breathing and heart problems and the ascites everytime I did it. I know it was the 3-mmc binge that really did me in but 4-fa is more toxic according to what my body tells me. I guess everyone could be differnet though because of chemistry issues...

Well best of luck to you man and let me know what you think about that information at the link I provided. (I'll be right back to edit my response with the link....so if you don't see it right away check back in a few minutes)

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/com...ally-preventing-and-curing-heart-disease.html

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/com...venting-and-curing-heart-disease.html?start=3

PS- Just curious to know....do you caugh up mucous? Because I can FEEL in my body that it's directly connected to this problem. But I've been doing it for years, ever since the OD and initial damage back in the 90's. Here's the symptoms- It is like a brown/black color and VERY Sticky...so much that even water pressure cannot wash it down the sink. And then it dries up quickly and you literally have to scrub it off to remove it. This is what causes my problems, because when I caugh it up I get temporary relief...it's usually in my liver/heart area and I can feel it and caugh it up and know when it will come out. But there's like an unlimited amount in there. Maybe this is connected to the heart problems some way? Or maybe me and you actually have something different. I need to research heart valve disease now and see what I can find. Maybe it will bring some new light to the situation. Also hoping it can be cured naturally. (I believe it can)

edgewise1 · Oct 16, 2014

King Of Beans. I agree with the gun! LOL

You made a statement about chemotherapy killing it's patients and I can only speak for one person, my dad. He had Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma. It was discovered in 1984 and he died in 1991. He was treated at one of the leading hospitals in N.C. and chemotherapy was the treatment used. It worked....for a while. In February of 1991 he was ambulated( NOT a real word) to Baptist Hospital in Winston Salem NC, his hospital. Long story short, the chemotherapy was shrinking the tumor but in doing this it was pulling away from the small intestines causing perforations and allowed his body to become septic and he died on March 21st.

So chemotherapy did kill him in a round about way.

《Plasticity》 · Oct 16, 2014

Thanks for the well wishes bud, means alot. I'm not gonna lie, shits been rough lately with a fulltime job, roof over my head, and fiance to maintain on top of all this shit... not to mention I just went through three months of terrible etizolam withdrawal right after kicking a 4 year kratom habit $:\$ . Those links are very useful and I will most definately be looking into some of the stuff mentioned, especially the chlorophyll extract. I too share a similar, but much less aversion to doctors who love the hell out of treating symptoms of diseases without getting to the core of the issue.

However, with that said no naturopath can fully take the place of a doctor when it comes to more serious issues. How will you ever know what ailments you have if you never get any imaging or tests done? A holistic healer won't have a CAT scan machine, EKG, nor a sonogram at arms reach, not to mention the years of skill required to use said equipment accurately and therefor I strongly reccomend you go to a specialist to at the very least, recieve a diagnosis and perhaps go from there. It's important to note that there are likely just as many seedy characters in the holistic field as the commercial medical industry, good doctors DO exist.

Unfortunately the damage I've incurred to myself causes physical changes to the structure of the valves that rarely gets better over time and just as likely gets worst, the latter being pretty much guaranteed if regurgitation and/or stenosis is present. I eat a phenomenal diet consisting of fruits and vegetables as my main staple as well as lean proteins, take MANY suplements such as CoQ10, zinc, mag citrate, calcium etc... I also had a vitamin work-up ordered and luckily my electrolyte and mineral balance is A' ok which is great to hear, I need my body in top shape now more than ever. I also have a tincture of hawthorne extract on the way so hopefully that will do some good for the chest pains I'm having.

Now I can't say for sure if you also have encountered the same form of heart damage as I have (I guess it's likely given the circumstances, though unfortunately many heart conditions share the same side effect profile (another reason for imaging needed for proper diagnosis) but here's the most in-depth study I've found on this 5-ht2b related heart valve disease. This is a study on fenfluramine (a diet pill that was pulled from the market due to causing these unique valve abnormailities typically seen in carcinoid tumors). It's very important to keep in mind that the valvular damage, dare I say mutation? caused by 5-ht2b agonism is very "one of a kind".

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/6/34

I reccomend you read through in full, it's no joke and these abnormalities can lead to pulmonary hypertension, cardiac fibrosis, aortic/mitral/tricuspid regurgitation which can lead to heart failure, as well as the blood in the heart being pumped the opposite direction (regurgitation) leading to pulmonary embolism and edema, if left untreated. I'm doing whatever I can naturally from the comfort of my own home but sometimes surgical intervention is vital for longevity when speaking of more serious conditions, though surgery is off the table for a while to see how my condition progresses. However if I'm diagnosed with pulmonary hypertension I WILL be getting the surgery as the prognosis is about 3 years if left untreated and a valve transplant/repair can prevent irreverable physical changes to the hearts structure eg. Cardiomegaly.

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I'd be reckless not to, at the least, give you a nudge to get a proper diagnosis so you know what your dealing with. Just getting a diagnosis can be a pain in the ass when dealing with know it all doctors but perservere and it may just save your life.

. Do you feel the symptoms when you are sober too? Or was it only when you were on the RC's? Just today (and right now) I am getting some symptoms of numbness in my left area, right by my heart. It feels like my heart is not getting enough oxygen. But it's not the same as the "shortness of breath' symptoms I was describing earlier.

Sadly, my symptoms come and go even when not on drugs. Once the damage was done the symptoms continued. Now I know you said that your symptoms mainly come when your on stims, which I can only assume is a good thing, but are you saying this symptom quoted above, or any other symptoms really, only happen when on stims? Either way what your describing sounds very worrying and may very well be your body gibing you warning to oncoming myocardial infarction. Remember, once you have a heart attack it's forever weakened. Your gonna wanna do what you can to make sure it doesnt, ie. Getting yourself checked out.

I know you probably are against medications, but a beta blocker such as atenolol (which can be bought online, PM me your email address and ill email you an online pharmacy) can lower both the strain and your hearts need for oxygen and possibly give your heart a "break" to promote recovery... just a suggestion. It's really helped me with the palpitations and chest pains.

Just curious to know....do you caugh up mucous? Because I can FEEL in my body that it's directly connected to this problem. But I've been doing it for years, ever since the OD and initial damage back in the 90's. Here's the symptoms- It is like a brown/black color and VERY Sticky...so much that even water pressure cannot wash it down the sink. And then it dries up quickly and you literally have to scrub it off to remove it. This is what causes my problems, because when I caugh it up I get temporary relief...it's usually in my liver/heart area and I can feel it and caugh it up and know when it will come out. But there's like an unlimited amount in there. Maybe this is connected to the heart problems some way? Or maybe me and you actually have something different. I need to research heart valve disease now and see what I can find. Maybe it will bring some new light to the situation. Also hoping it can be cured naturally. (I believe it can)

How do you know what you have can be cured naturally if you don't even know what's wrong with you? That type of behavior is incredibly reckless and how people die prematurely. Now I'm not sure exactly how old you are but I would assume your death within the next few years would be quite a waste of many more years of life. Anyways, I don't have that symptom. Sounds like your coughing up bile to me, but that's just a guess. Something to keep in mind is that it's very possible that you can have both heart and liver disease causing "overlapping" of symptoms whicj makes online diagnosis flat out impossible.

I sincerely hope you seek professional help for at least the diagnosing process so you know whether or not what your dealing with can prove to be fatal if left untreated. Sorry for the long post as well lol. Good luck, please take this seriously though...you don't sound too well.

The King of Beans · Oct 16, 2014

edgewise1 said:
King Of Beans. I agree with the gun! LOL

You made a statement about chemotherapy killing it's patients and I can only speak for one person, my dad. He had Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma. It was discovered in 1984 and he died in 1991. He was treated at one of the leading hospitals in N.C. and chemotherapy was the treatment used. It worked....for a while. In February of 1991 he was ambulated( NOT a real word) to Baptist Hospital in Winston Salem NC, his hospital. Long story short, the chemotherapy was shrinking the tumor but in doing this it was pulling away from the small intestines causing perforations and allowed his body to become septic and he died on March 21st.

So chemotherapy did kill him in a round about way.

I'm sorry to hear about that bro....I really hate to hear of the senseless deaths from the toxic treatments they give you. That is why I try my best to let everyone know about how there are simple treatments for cancer and the chemo will kill not only cancer cells but your healthy ones as well, and basically destroy your immune system. I had skin cancer for a couple of years. Never got it treated at the doctors because it wasn't malignant but it was spreading slowly. Looked like a bunch of little brown dots on my stomach. I never got diagnosed by a doctor either but here is how I figured out it was cancer- I learned about APRICOT KERNELS and LATRELLE (Vitamin B17) and how they cured other people's cancer (Even stage 4) so I tried some...and within 2 days I was outside sweating and I rubbed the cancer right off my body. I was amazed at how quick the seeds cured it. I suspected it was cancer all that time but when it rubbed off my body 2 days after starting the seeds, I put 2 and 2 together and realized it had to be cancer....because the seeds were said to cure cancer, and I had it on my body for 2 years prior to stating the seeds. So obviously that was not a coincidence.

The seeds are only $20 a pound and you can safely eat 20 to 50 per day with no bad effects. The more advanced the cancer is, the more you need to eat. I was eating like 50 a day back then, so that's probably why the skin cancer went away so quick. When I rubbed it off, it was just like nothing but dead cells at that point. The vitamin b-17 targets the cancer cells and kills them, but it leaves your healthy cells alone. In fact, it nurishes your healthy ones...so it's far better and safer than the chemo they give you at the hopsital. If anyone is reading this and considering chemo....just ask the doctor what the chances of surviving it are. I heard that they must be honest if you ask. They will tell you between 1% and 5%....not very good odds at all. And then ask them if THEY would do the chemo themselves if they had cancer, and most will tell you "No".......so if the doctors won't even do their own treatments, then I would recommend against them for sure.

Another good, proven cure for cancer is Habaero peppers. These cost PENNIES they are so cheap. Eat them with Garlic and Butter everyday, and they will shrink tumors up to 80%. UCLA scientifically proved this to be true. Also there is a book written by a guy named Kelley Edeim (I think that's his last name?) it's called THE DOCTOR WHO CURES CANCER.....and Kelley himself cured his stage 4 cancer in less than 2 weeks using this simple protocol, which costs less than $30 total!! I highly recommend that, if you want to check it out. He gives the protocol away free online, you don't even need to buy the book. He's a nice guy and will also answer any questions you might have about the protocol. Just google about that, if anyone is interested

The King of Beans · Oct 16, 2014

CaptainKratom said:
Thanks for the well wishes bud, means alot. I'm not gonna lie, shits been rough lately with a fulltime job, roof over my head, and fiance to maintain on top of all this shit... not to mention I just went through three months of terrible etizolam withdrawal right after kicking a 4 year kratom habit $:\$ . Those links are very useful and I will most definately be looking into some of the stuff mentioned, especially the chlorophyll extract. I too share a similar, but much less aversion to doctors who love the hell out of treating symptoms of diseases without getting to the core of the issue.

However, with that said no naturopath can fully take the place of a doctor when it comes to more serious issues. How will you ever know what ailments you have if you never get any imaging or tests done? A holistic healer won't have a CAT scan machine, EKG, nor a sonogram at arms reach, not to mention the years of skill required to use said equipment accurately and therefor I strongly reccomend you go to a specialist to at the very least, recieve a diagnosis and perhaps go from there. It's important to note that there are likely just as many seedy characters in the holistic field as the commercial medical industry, good doctors DO exist.

Unfortunately the damage I've incurred to myself causes physical changes to the structure of the valves that rarely gets better over time and just as likely gets worst, the latter being pretty much guaranteed if regurgitation and/or stenosis is present. I eat a phenomenal diet consisting of fruits and vegetables as my main staple as well as lean proteins, take MANY suplements such as CoQ10, zinc, mag citrate, calcium etc... I also had a vitamin work-up ordered and luckily my electrolyte and mineral balance is A' ok which is great to hear, I need my body in top shape now more than ever. I also have a tincture of hawthorne extract on the way so hopefully that will do some good for the chest pains I'm having.

Now I can't say for sure if you also have encountered the same form of heart damage as I have (I guess it's likely given the circumstances, though unfortunately many heart conditions share the same side effect profile (another reason for imaging needed for proper diagnosis) but here's the most in-depth study I've found on this 5-ht2b related heart valve disease. This is a study on fenfluramine (a diet pill that was pulled from the market due to causing these unique valve abnormailities typically seen in carcinoid tumors). It's very important to keep in mind that the valvular damage, dare I say mutation? caused by 5-ht2b agonism is very "one of a kind".

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/6/34

I reccomend you read through in full, it's no joke and these abnormalities can lead to pulmonary hypertension, cardiac fibrosis, aortic/mitral/tricuspid regurgitation which can lead to heart failure, as well as the blood in the heart being pumped the opposite direction (regurgitation) leading to pulmonary embolism and edema, if left untreated. I'm doing whatever I can naturally from the comfort of my own home but sometimes surgical intervention is vital for longevity when speaking of more serious conditions, though surgery is off the table for a while to see how my condition progresses. However if I'm diagnosed with pulmonary hypertension I WILL be getting the surgery as the prognosis is about 3 years if left untreated and a valve transplant/repair can prevent irreverable physical changes to the hearts structure eg. Cardiomegaly.

I know I'm probably beating a dead horse, but I'd be reckless not to, at the least, give you a nudge to get a proper diagnosis so you know what your dealing with. Just getting a diagnosis can be a pain in the ass when dealing with know it all doctors but perservere and it may just save your life.

Sadly, my symptoms come and go even when not on drugs. Once the damage was done the symptoms continued. Now I know you said that your symptoms mainly come when your on stims, which I can only assume is a good thing, but are you saying this symptom quoted above, or any other symptoms really, only happen when on stims? Either way what your describing sounds very worrying and may very well be your body gibing you warning to oncoming myocardial infarction. Remember, once you have a heart attack it's forever weakened. Your gonna wanna do what you can to make sure it doesnt, ie. Getting yourself checked out.

I know you probably are against medications, but a beta blocker such as atenolol (which can be bought online, PM me your email address and ill email you an online pharmacy) can lower both the strain and your hearts need for oxygen and possibly give your heart a "break" to promote recovery... just a suggestion. It's really helped me with the palpitations and chest pains.

How do you know what you have can be cured naturally if you don't even know what's wrong with you? That type of behavior is incredibly reckless and how people die prematurely. Now I'm not sure exactly how old you are but I would assume your death within the next few years would be quite a waste of many more years of life. Anyways, I don't have that symptom. Sounds like your coughing up bile to me, but that's just a guess. Something to keep in mind is that it's very possible that you can have both heart and liver disease causing "overlapping" of symptoms whicj makes online diagnosis flat out impossible.

I sincerely hope you seek professional help for at least the diagnosing process so you know whether or not what your dealing with can prove to be fatal if left untreated. Sorry for the long post as well lol. Good luck, please take this seriously though...you don't sound too well.

Hey Kratom,

You're right about the doctors, being the only ones who have the equipement to test you. That's the main reason I would even consider going back...is just to find out exactly what I have, so then I could treat it myself and have some peace of mind. Although sometimes I think it's better NOT to know, because once you think in your mind that you have something, it comes true. I worry about them misdiagnosing me with something I don't even have. That happens all the time. And then I also worry even more about the tests being toxic. I've heard just one x-ray can cause cancer. I don't want to put my body through anymore unnessecary toxic treatments or tests if I can avoid them. I understand though, it's best to know what you have so you can treat it. But if I go by trial and error, for instance, do some natural treatments for cancer, liver , gall bladder AND heart, and then my symptoms finally go away after doing one of the treatments, then I can figure that is what my problem was......But honestly I think all diseases and symptoms are just a part of another problem, mainly nurtient difiencies and a weakened immune system. So therefore in that case, it doesn't really matter what "disease" they want to label on you, because you need to take the complete treatment approach and feed your body mind and spirit what it needs. I think if we do this, we will be fine, and no doctors will be needed.

Be careful about taking too many supplements....that could be part of your problem! I learned that most supplements are actually worse for you, than if you took none at all. This is because all of the supplements are owned by FDA and they purposely use bad ingredients. They are deceptive. Co-Enzyme Q-10 supplements don't work either, because they cannot be absorbed by the body. You need to excercise so your body can create it's own Q-10.....so I would definitely avoid the supplements. They cannot replace what a good diet can do, and I bet they are part of what is keeping your body from getting healthy.

There are VERY FEW supplements on the market which do any good at all. The Hawthorne might be good. I also take Hawthorne, but I ran out. I get the one off Amazon called HAWTHORNE GOLD by NutriGold. The reason I get this one is because they don't use sterates in their ingredients. Sterates are said to be toxic to the body....and if you look at your supplement labels, I bet that you will find Magneisum Sterate on there or Stearic Acid. Avoid any supplements that contain this as well...
I used to take many supplements years ago, and when I found out they are not good for you, I stopped most of them and I definitely noticed that I felt better. The FDA won't allow any products to be legal, if they are effective.(a good example of this, is that they BANNED apricot seeds and bitter almonds... and did armed raids on heath stores that sold them! So they must be purchased online now) So, if you are purchasing a supplement from a store...most likely it will just make you worse. There are some exceptions though...such as the chloyphyll extract.

Thanks for the link...I will definitely check that out. I also need to do some research on heart valve damage...as I don't think I have researched about this yet. I do recall a condition called ENDOCARDITIS which shares all of my symptoms. But I've had those symptoms for years, so whatever that is, is not immediately life threatneing. But some people survive 20 + years with heart disease, and heart problems....so you never know. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe my time is coming to an end soon. Hope not!

Well I appreciate your post man. Nothing is too long for me. But thanks a lot for caring enough to write all that out to me. You've already helped me a great deal, even if I don't go to a doctor's....I think by reading your experiences, will just keep me from doing any more of these crazy drugs. I enjoy being sober anyway now, I think doing the drugs is more of an OCD thing than anything. Like something in your brain or mind that just wants to do them...but you have to control it. So, that will be my challenge from here on out. I think if I stay off the drugs I'll get better. Even the damage might take years to reverse, but as long as it doesn't progress, I don't see why I'd just die if I do everything healthy otherwise. I made a pretty 360 degree turn around. I stopped the fast food, I avoid pollution whenever possible as well. For instance driving down the road(breathing diesel fumes) can be worse for you than smoking 2 packs of cigs a day.....basically off the cigs too. Quit smoking weed as well and cut way down on drinking. And also the big one- Stopped doing the RC's.....the only one I'd even consider to do again would be the 5-mapb...but what you said worried me a bit, because you said the APB's are the main ones that you abused that damaged your heart? I personally dont get the bad heart effects on the APB's.... You mentioned in your first response that you think I've done more RC's than you, over all. Just curious to know, if you had any way to estimate....how many grams total, over your usage, do you think you consumed? I usually keep my doses low. A Gram of metylone would last me at least a week or two. Although sometimes I'd take up to 250 mg's in one dose...or even combine it with other stuff like 4-fa or 6-apb. But not too often. From reading some other people online I heard of a guy who was doing 1.5 grams a Day! So, i thought there was other people out there doing a lot more than I was...

You know my heart issues also seem to tie into the digestion issues. The parasites I told you I've had for years. And that was caused from a single overdose on MDMA/Meth combo. I was ignorant and young then. I am almost 40 now, but this happened back when I was a teenager. So it's amazing that I'm even still alive. I am sure if I had went to a doctors and got surgury I'd be dead by now....but I'm not trying to scare you away from it. I just think you'll be fine without it, if you follow the whole food natural route (and meditation is absolutely mandatory for you to get better as well.....)and if you take my advice and get off all those supplements that are probably causing more damage to you. Try it for a week, and see...I bet you'll feel a lot better too. I dont know if you are meditating but make sure not to neglect that. I know i have been lately. Meditation needs to be done at least once, daily. There are some great free tracks on youtube which will automatically meditate you, if you listen with headphones. So, check into that as well if you're not already currently doing so.

EDIT: I know I recomemnded to cut back on the supplements and how co-enzyme q-10 supplements are not easily absorbable, but I would continue to take the Co-enzyme Q-10 supplement anyway just because of how crucial it is...and you can never get too much of it. But excercise daily will create more of it in your body. So basically what I meant, was don't allow the supplements to take place of the real nutrition. Raw veggies and fruits must be organic also, even though they might cost more.....the pesticides and other methods they use on the standard produce, renders them worthless, and even actually harmful to your body and immune system. I am sure you are already doing this, considering your serious condition...but just incase I thought I'd let you know. Oraganic is a must. You'll notice a huge difference in health, if you are not currently eating organic, once you switch.

Here is another link I found with tons of info on how to reverse all heart problems. Even the heart valve damage is mentioned. I am still currently reading it, but here it is....they recommend "supplementing" too, but they are most likely talking about getting it from whole foods, and not from the cheap supplements that you buy from the store. Another reason these could be dangerous is because you will think you are getting enough from the supplement and then neglect the diet more. Fresh organic produce is really the best way to get the vitamins into your body. Even Vitamin C in supplement form(Ascorbic Acid) is bad for you. Most people don't know this. But Ascorbic Acid is not natural vitamin C. It is missing many of it's crucial elements. Acreola Cherries are a good natural source of Vitamin C. So, you must obtain all of your vitamins from your diet, and not the supplements.

http://jonbarron.org/heart-health-program-learn-how-reverse-heart-disease-problems-naturally

EDIT- I was just thinking, I wanted to ask you (I know you said, it's hard to put a number on your exact usage) but in reference to the APB's, how often would you say that you did them? And did you redose during your sessions? Do you think it would be safe to do them once every 2 weeks long term and not get any further heart damage? It seems so, considering that i did all sorts of shit multiple times a week for years.....but was just curious because I only did 5mapb once(twice actually, it was a 2 day binge) and I really would like to try it again sometime later down the road. But as for all the others,(methylone, mmc's Fa's etc) I consider them garbage now.

《Plasticity》 · Oct 17, 2014

NSFW:

The King of Beans · Oct 17, 2014

Hey Captain....

Due to my crazy wired brain, I am going to respond as I read. I have not read the whole response yet. This way I can get all my thoughts out, before I forget them. I think much faster than I can type anyway....and I type pretty damn fast (120 wpm) lol

Wow that's strange, that you said the 5-mapb feels the most cardiotoxic....because that was the one drug I did lately that did NOT give me any heart issues (None that I felt anyway) I could breath great on it. When I do the other chemicals, I find myself having trouble getting enough air in. It totally ruins it....and even kills the euphoria. Not the case with the 5mapb (or mdma).

But you could be right....or possibly it was due to your situation, where you already had the heart problems by the time you did the 5mapb, so you noticed it more on that, maybe? Also I was thinking, maybe you already had underlying heart problems before you ever used these drugs, and just didn't know it. Or possibly even the test you took was not accurate and you are ok and it's something else, or just in your mind. I really hope that's the case for both of us. That would be awesome if we escaped out of this with minimal damage. At the very least though, even permanent panic attacks would be no good. So, I hope this thread helps to keep other people from abusing these RC's. I think this could be great harm reduction for the rest of the site. I wish I had known the seriousness of these chems before I got into them. Stupidly I thought they were not that dangerous because they were pure (I always thought it was the impurities in the street meth that made it dangerous) and also because I abused MDMA for years with none of these problems. I figured I could handle lighter shit like 4-fa. I can almost guarantee 4-fa is more dangerous now than MDMA ever could be. But who knows, I could be wrong...or it could just be a personal chemistry issue....

Hmmm, the 6-apbd I have never done, and I have no urge to ever try that one. From what I read, it sounds too psychedelic for me, and I didn't care for 6-apb much either. But irnoically ALL of the apb's I have done, did not give me any heart issues. It seems to only be the straight stims that do that. I used to also abuse psychedelics when I was younger...but these were natural ones, like psilocybe cubensis mushrooms was my drug of choice. I was able to get them whenever I wanted, as I lived right down the street from many shroom fields. I used to go everyday. Literally, no joke. I tripped every single day for a while during the summer, until I got so burnt out on it, I got depressed everytime I did it. I was up to eating at least a POUND of mushrooms in one sitting. (But not dried obviously, I ate them fresh) and then one night I had a massive OD and out of body experience, I ate somewhere around 5 pounds in one sitting until I passed out. I went into delirious (Whole nother story right there. Still archived on google if you're interested to read it, let me know and I'll post a link. I posted it on the Shroomery back in 2000 and it's still online. But the trip itself happened in the mid 90's) So, I doubt psychedelics cause serious heart damage based on my experience. I am still confused about all that "afinity for 5-htp" receptors and all that. I did check that link out that you posted and skimmed through it, but it also made no sense to me. I guess i'm kinda "etarded" now from all the mdma use I did too. But I can see what you're saying though. But in that case, wouldn't it mean that the natural shrooms would also be toxic to your heart? If this was the case, you'd figure I'd be dead by now, because I've eaten 1000's of them in my lifetime. And that's not an exageration.

I found one Q-10 supplement with black pepper in it, which is supposed to help it absorb better....I plan to try that one I guess. I honestly havent taken any Q-10 supplements since early 2000......But if you want to get it from your diet, Organic Brocolli and Cauliflower is the best place. I eat Cauliflower a lot, so I might not be defeicient on it. (Probably am though) One problem with our fruits and veggies now is that the soil no longer has the nutrients it used to have. Back in the biblical times, humans were said to live to almost 1,000 years old. After the great flood, our life expectancy went down to about 120 years or less. I do believe if we have all the nutrients we need, that we would never die (or at least not for 1000 years)

Ok the more I read your response, the more I can see that your diagnosis was probably accurate....and I most likely have some heart problems too. It makes no sense that I would start getting breathing problems out of the blue on the stims, when I was never like that before. So, i am taking it seriously. Just wishing for the best and hoping we CAN CURE This naturally. I hope you never need that surgury man. I'll be wishing you the best. The Q-10 supplement I found is actually not expensive at all. I was recommended to take 300 mg's a day and work up to 600 over time. That wouldn't cost too much. Also heard about something called L-DOPA....you heard of that? I need to look more into it. But the colloidal silver is probably the most expensive supplement to buy, althought there is way to make your own. It was recommended, because I guess men have TOO MUCH IRON in their bodies and it's toxic once it builds up. The silver I read, was said, to neutralize it. This is also a theory on why men have more heart problems than women do.

Well I'll check into those studies you provided links to...but they probably won't make sense to me. I just want to keep this as simple as possible. I know it's a serious situation, but honestly all heart problems should be treated the same way, don't you think? No matter what they want to label it as, our goal is to avoid surgury and beat this with nutrition. Full nutrition means no matter what we have, even if it's multiple issues (As youre right, I definitely would be diagnosed with more than one condition..

But I still think they like to put names on diseases, when really it's all one disease. But you're far more technical/scientific than I am with this. I don't even know if I buy all that government study crap to be honest with you. Many of them are false and they do that on purpose to scare people away from doing the drugs. I never had a problem with MDMA, except the tightness in my chest, but I've had that for 20 years and it gets better when I stop taking all the other toxins. So, I guess even if you're right, or those studies are true, it still means our immune system is capable of curing ANYTHING and we shouldn't worry too much about this and just focus on getting better.

I know I can't talk you out of the hospital and you can't talk me into it, so I won't focus my energy on that...but really if I was you, I would just avoid the surgury because it likely would just cause more problems in the long run. I know you'll be ok if you eat the organic diet and do the meditation and truly believe with your mind, that you will cure this and get healthy. That's really the secrets I've learned over the years. But the reason I'm still sick is because I never gave my body what it needed. But I credit my survival to those secrets I just told you. I have way outlived my welcome, if it's true that I've had heart problems for 20 years...and I'm still going strong. And then consider all the drugs I did after that too. I did go for 7 years without doing anything except cigs and weed....but still, cigarettes aren't supposed to be good for you. I started smoking non filters about 7 years ago and then just recently almost completely quit. But I felt better smoking the non filters. Believe it or not. Also did a bit of research on this and found out that people lived long healthy lives smoking non filters. Rolling your own, or using indian tobacco is supposed to be the best.

I know tobacco has a LOT of medicinal benefits, and of course the medical establishment doesnt want us to know that. Also, you're more likely to die from drinking NO alcohol, than you are from having 1 to 2 drinks a day. I just read this last night and while I don't believe everything I read online, I do believe this. Even the bible said "A little wine instead of water" ...Wine is good for the heart. Beer has been found to be good for the heart too. I looked at some other studies on this several months back because I thought I was having "blood clots" and the beer always helped me to breath better when I drink it. Also there is a saying "It's not what you do that kills you....It's what you DON'T do" meaning that if you have problems, you are missing something curical from your diet. Who knows, maybe it's alcohol or tobacco? But just tonight I gave in and smoked a Newport (non filter, I tear the filters off) and now here are my symptoms (they get worse from smoking commercial cigs....gov. adds toxins into them on purpose to make them unhealthy, since natural tobacco is actually good for you...just as organic weed is good for you, so they grow it with a bunch of chemicals) But my symptoms right now are - Tightness/sludge feeling in my chest, back and shoulders. I wonder if this is connected to the heart problem? This is like that mucous I told you about....but I have SO MUCH in my body I can't even begin to describe to you. I think this is what causes the tightness. Believe me, I would love to know exactly what this is. If I thought a doctor could figure it out, without harming me even more or risking my life, I'd go for sure.

Ok by reading the next paragraph where you mention that MDMA has far less affinity than the apb's.....this means that mdma is LESS toxic for the heart, correct? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly, because this is the scientific part that goes over my head. But I think if I understand correctly, that's what you meant by that. So, hmmmm...well now I'm scared to do the apb's....lol I did abuse the MDMA almost 20 years ago, took a 7 year break and got right back into it and abused it again for 7 more years...and like i said, still alive today. But I didn't always get MDMA, I would buy street pills and end up with piperazines sometimes. I even did MDMA once with this crazy shit, i think it was called Foxy. They were these "Saints" pills (New orleans saints) you might still be able to see reports from those crazy things on Pillreports.com. I married a mosquito one night while on one (I was all fucked up and just communicating with this insect and I played out in my mind that we got married...LOL I was bored I guess. Wasn't delirious that night...but when I combined that same shit with 3 strong MDMA pills I was literally dead. I was bouncing around like a maniac, NEVER ROLLED SO HARD In my life, not even close. I took pictures of myself on my web cam...and you wouldn't believe I looked like a ghost, you could see through my body...but probably just due to my moving around so much. lol I just looked about dead. Very disturbing pictures to look at, but I was actually enjoying myself that night believe it or not. But my point here is that I've done so much crazy shit, you'd figure I'd be dead now if I had serious or underlying heart problems.

About x-rays...I cannot remember where I heard that. But I do remember they said that, they won't cause cancer until YEARS down the road...and only if the doctor uses too much radiation. So, it's a gamble. I wouldn't want to take that risk. And you can't deny that MANY people are getting and dying from cancer. I believe x-rays can be dangerous, depenindg on your immune system and the amount of raditaion used. My immune system is not rebuilt totally yet, so I admit I am scared of them...

Well thanks again for your concern man. I tried Kratom once and hated it! It felt a lot like mushrooms to me... And while I used to love mushrooms, I started hating them after that insane OD I did. Now I hate anything even slightly psychedelic. 6-apb was the most I could handle without wigging out. lol or maybe some clean LSD. But even that was too intense for my comfort, last I tried it. But don't worry about me man, I'll be fine I guess. I'm going to stay off the stims and continue to do my best in this natural approach. I still honestly cannot see myself setting foot into a doctor's office unless I get extremely desperate. But you've helped me to not want to do anymore stim drugs, seriously. If i want a buzz, I can rely on that daily beer that they recommend to drink. That is all natural and good for your heart (check out the new studies that proved it) and it gives you a buzz. But it's just lame when you compare it to some 5-mapb. lol

As for the endo...Nah I don't think I have a constant fever, but I do get the chills very easily. Sometimes the cold goes right through my body. I always figured it was due to me being super skinny. Check into IODINE theapy as well, that is the one supplement I think is good. Because our diets cannot provide nearly enough. But you have to take other stuff with it, like sea salt (which you should be taking already for your heart) and magneisium, etc. Definitely look into that. It can be expensive but i was taking the IODORAL tabs 12.5 mg's I was taking 50 mg's a day and I found it to help my immune system a lot. Then I ran out and couldn't afford anymore.

I also don't get lightheaded (although I HAVE, out of the blue before...but rarely...) nor have I ever fainted or gotten those types of symptoms. Fatigue.....well, I've always had that I think. The Iodine helps with that a lot though. It gave me a good amount of energy and made me feel healthy. The bromine is supposed to be the cause of some of our problems too....

But I agree it's impossible for me to diagnose myself, with all the different conditions they have out there. But my goal is to just treat it all at once. I think we can man. You won't need surgury...don't worry. Well i hope not. But if you do, hopefully it will all go good for you, and you'll still live a long life either way. I guess when it's our time to go, it's our time. I really believe that too. We probably disagree there, but that's one reason I credit I am still alive. I think I am here for some reason, as I had so many close calls with death and definitely have had what they call "Miracles" in my life.....It's kinda like when someone holds on because they don't want to die, or they aren't ready. They won't die. You've heard of the NDE's people have, where they were already clinically dead....and were told by "God" they were not meant to go and they were brought back to life and STUNNED the doctors, because they had 0% chance of surivivng, medically. So, I do believe in this higher spiritual power. I am basing my treatment on that. And I think you should also focus on that too, and maybe you'll get better on your own, with your diet. You still didn't tell me if you were eating all organic? That is a MUST! I am telling you, the regular fruits and veggies are toxic, and have very little nurtitional value at all, so no matter how many you are eating, it may not be helping at all...(or even making things worse)

Are you currently on any meds from the doctor? Did he prescribe you anything for your heart? This is also what I would worry about. I would NEVER take their drugs, no matter what they told me, or how much they tell me I need them. I would research into whatever it is that you're taking (if anything) and see if you can find any info on it. I've heard all of their heart treatments are not are not safe and can cause further problems. I don't see why people would lie about that, since they have no money to be made from it..

Well take care bro. Keep in touch. I am glad we got to talk about this. You might of saved my life....(and possible some others as well who are reading this) even though it's now up to me to stay off the dope...or yes I agree I will defintiely die. But the fact that you responded, and I am quitting and I know I am, proves it's not my time to go yet. Hopefully that dream I had wasn't psychic because it said I'd be dead in 3 years...so it's hard to change your fate. I also believe in some crazy shit like that, that our fates cannot be changed. I am not 100% on this but I believe it's highly likely based on the way my life has went so far...

In other words...whatever happens, was meant to happen.

PS- Sorry for the LONG response...just had to get everything off my brain that I was thinking about. I can't type fast enough to keep up. lol. But i know you're busy and you work full time and have a life to live, so I don't want you to worry about responding to all of it. You've already helped me by letting me know the heart issues these stims can cause. That's all I really needed to know to scare me away from doing them again. If only I had known this beforehand, that people had gotten serious heart damage from limited use like this, I never would of binged I don't think. Figured I'd had to fuck myself up before I was ready to stop. I REALLY regret it now.

EDIT: so I am surprised nobody else has responded to report any heart issues. I know you provided those links to studies which proved the stims cause heart problems, but you'd figure ALL of these Bluelighters would have issues, especially the ones who abuse the stims.

Nobody else here has any problems or symptoms? Maybe they aren't with us anymore to talk about it (SCARY THOUGHT!) but I just thought these RC's were much safer than this....I mean they took the freakin 5-IT off the market because one person ODed and died from it. But then they allow people to just mess their hearts up from all this other crap over time. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

EDIT #2- Well I just found this other thread, that asked to list all the drugs we've done. I can't even think of all of them from the top of my head. But just writing out what I could remember really showed me what a freakin druggie I was! So glad to be off all that shit now. Just check this thread out and read my list. You'll wonder how the fuck any of us are still alive after putting all this crap into our bodies!

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...Inventory-Of-Oneself)?p=12638503#post12638503

Shit, this post is long enough already, I might as well just copy/paste it here. When you read this and see how many times I've done EACH DRUG, it kinda makes you wonder, "How the hell am I still alive?" or...."No WONDER I have a bad liver!" lol it really isn't funny though...

Here's my list...and I am not exagerating about these. I was doing MDMA 4 to 5 times a week in 2010....the pills were so weak they didn't even eat me up.(Well they weren't really weak, but I was just getting a major tolerence. I had to take 2 to 3 at once to really feel it and I had to drink and smoke with them or I wouldn't roll at all. But they were on pillreports.com and others were saying they were strong. I was doing the OG pokeballs a lot, and barely rolling from just 1, so to me that's weak, but tolerence had to be an issue. But these didn't compare to the beans I used to get in the 90's.... so that's why I called them weak)

But yeah I was still rolling. I had to take a couple days break a week to get it back but I probably rolled around 200x just in that one year alone. I got into the RC's in 2011...(right around the time I couldn't get the MDMA....figures just my body's luck)

MDMA (too many times to count...probably at least 1000)
MDEA (only a few times, this was a rare one)
MDA (probably 50 times)
MCPP (not sure...probably less than 5 times)
BZP (probably 10 times or so in combo usually with TFMPP)
DXM (probably around 10 times or less)
TFMPP (same as BZP)
COCAINE (never liked coke...only did this a handful of times in my life. Just made me tired)
CAFFIENE (Same as coke, makes me tired but I've probably done this like 1000x in my life at least)
HEROIN (Only twice....too strong for me)
OXYCODONE (did about 1 pill a day for a year and then on and off after that. I'd say about 500 times)
SHROOMS (all sorts, psilocybe, panealous, etc) (wow....this is in the 100's....I used to trip everyday)
LSD (at least 15 to 20 times)
ALCOHOL (lol can't put a number, this is in the 1000's)
TOBACCO (lol again, this was a daily thing. I am just now quitting. My poor body...)
PCP (I tried PCP twice. That was dumb of me, because I didn't like it the first time. Crazy strong drug)
KETAMINE (a few times, mostly in dirty xtc pills)
METH (probably less than 25x....never wanted to get into a drug like this)
4-FA (Can't estimate, 75 to 100x maybe..Probably a total of 20 grams in my life)
3-FA (Not too much. Probably less than 10x)
2-FMA (Less than 10x)
4-FMA (about 10-20x)
5-IT (about 10 to 20x this one went illegal pretty fast...but was one of my favorites)
5-APB (only a few of times, mostly combined it with 6-apb)
6-APB (probably 10 to 20x and combined with 5-apb probably about 10x or less)
5-MAPB (only two times...this was the BEST RC I've ever done. Beats MDMA even)
Ethylphendiate (less than 10x)
MDPV (who knows, I did a lot of bathsalts when they first came out. Probably 50x)
APVP (probably less than 20x)
Marijuana (Holy shit, maybe like a 50,000 times if I had to estimate..)
Foxy Methoxy (only a few times, once I combined it with MDMA and went crazy)
4-MEC (probably 20x)
3-MMC (AT LEAST 100x or more)
(possibly 4-mmc in ecstasy, not sure)
Flephedrone (4-FMC) (Not sure....at least 5 to 10x)
3-FMC (around 5x....I didn't care for this stuff much at all)
Methylone (probably 50 to 100 times)
Methyphendiate (only a couple of times, I took Ritalin)
Morphine (only a couple of times)
Pentedrone (probably 10x)
Xanax (not too much, I can't estimate. Didn't like Xanax)
Roofies (only a few times. I passed out everytime I did them)
Inhalents & Whippets (Rubber Cement, Dust off, etc) (used to inhale whole bottles of dust off in one night, and rubber cement in the classroom when I was a kid in school)
Dilaudid (probably 10x, these were more rare....Roxys was the drug of choice then)
Dramamine (HOLY SHIT! ONLY ONCE and that's ALL You'll ever want or need to do this shit! Had 18 of them and hallucinated 20 people that weren't there. Long story)
TV (Used to watch a lot, now I hate it)
Pussy (lol...hmmm....not as much as i'd like. Probably 20x with different girls. But altogether at least 2000 times easily. Dated same girl for 9 years and we did it up to 5x a day during the beginning)
Music (can't estimate....lol)
Meditation (hmmmm....not enough. Need to do it more often. But at least 500x)
The unknown drugs/chemicals they put in our food supply (everyday just bout)
Various different combos from the above drugs (Sometimes 3 to 4 or more RC chemicals at once. Best combo though ever (hands down) was MDEA/MDMA. And also once I did the dust off while rolling from the mdea/mdma combo and OMG, craziest visuals ever. A "friend" recommended me to try it, he described the moon jumping around back and forth in the sky. I saw a guy multiply on tv, his face turned into like 15 faces, one after the other. Was cool as hell)
Also did all the "candy flips" and "hippy flips" Did MDMA/shroom MDMA/LSD, MDA/LSD, etc
UNKNOWN CHEMICALS in various different BATH SALT BRANDS...most were probably combos of different RC's (was doing bath salts twice a week when they were legal)

And more! (I can't think of all of them right now. Everything's a drug) UPDATE- Forgot to add KRATOM to the list. That's a drug I only tried once....and then there was one other that was similiar I forget the name of it...it made me trip as well and I didn't like it either.

And even with all this drug use, I've lived pretty healthy. I mean, I've eaten oragnic (even though I ate fast food as well everyday for years, I stopped eating it for 7 years and stopped doing most drugs for 7 years...and STILL managed to rack up all that drug use) I definitely underestimated my piperzine use too...I surely did pipes more than 10x....just thinking back to all the dirty batches of beans I got. Probably more like 20 to 30 times is a better etimate. I put MCPP on the list even though I am not sure that is what I had, I am going by my research and how I felt on it. It was the ONE piperzine I enjoyed. Was a nice break from MDMA at the time. I never liked TFMPP though, was far too trippy for me and made me freezing cold on it. Terrible drug. I only did that shit on accident or if I was stupid. I could tell a piperzine bean by just looking at it (Especially by tasting it) but once I was totally fooled. The dealer made it look like MDMA by scraping off the crystals and making the pill look powdery like a good mDMA pill and even the taste, wasn't sweet and tarty like pipes usually are. I had a somewhat bad trip that night....long story.

EDIT- You know I am really glad I wrote out this list...because it disgusts me to see all this crap I did in the past (even though it was over a period of 25 years) and so it just makes me hate drugs even more now and makes me really regret putting all that into my body. No wonder I have no many problems today. This is just adding to my (already) wake up call that I needed to get off them.

Used to do all those drugs fine, with little to no bad effects. Now, I can't even smoke a freakin cigarette without getting shortness of breath. And I can't handle everyday pollution like diesel smoke. It fucks me up. Obviously I did some kind of serious damage by doing all that crap. But I think the one thing that did it, was my massive MDMA/Meth OD I had in 1999....that is what got me scared sober for 7 years. Now I am scared sober again for the second time in my life, due to possible(obvious) heart problems.

So, hopefully my days with drugs are done for good. Even if you could survive 100 years doing this shit, I like being sober better anyway. Drugs are nothing more than a psychological addiction (and physical for some...but for me it was all psychological mostly. I never did crack (as you noticed it wasn't on the list) or any of the more addictive drugs like cocaine (never liked coke, luckily) and even the Roxy's I was able to quit pretty easily after a year or so of doing them...with only minimal withdrawls. Actually got the WORSE withdrawls from quitting smoking weed. Crazy huh? Weed was the most addictive drug on that whole list for me. Then cigarettes comes next. Cigs are hard to eliminate for good. Just smoked one tonight)

ANOTHER EDIT: Thinking back in detail to my years of MDMA usage, I think I did over estimate that one a bit. I probably did roll 200+ times that one year, but over all, altogeter I've probably only rolled about 400 to 500 times. But counting how many pills I've took, definitely over 1000 easily. I'm glad to say that I'm not even close to the world record....I looked online and saw a report of a guy who ate over 40,000 mdma pills. He was up to 25 a day! I don't even see how that is possible. How the heck was he still rolling?! His brain musta been gone. They said he had NO short term memory left what so ever, then he disappeared after that....

But when it comes to shrooms, sadly, I might have the record for that. People didn't believe me when I told them I ate pounds of them in one sitting, but I wasn't joking. I found an unoffical record of someone else eating 2 lbs, but I know I still had that beat. So, not trying to encourage anyone to do drugs here, but I think some drugs are definitely safer than others. I was very young when I ODed on the shrooms. I was reading all sorts of mushroom books and one book stated that you cannot possibly OD on them. So I went wild with them. I could of died though. Or went permenently blind. At one point in the trip, I was so far gone and delirious (This is after I passed out and woke up) I was trying to gouge out my own eyeballs.(had no idea what I was doing. Some "demon" or entity must of came into my body or something and tried to destroy me) THANK GOD I did not succeed. I'd be blind today if I had succeeded. But my heart would probably be healthier. lol

ok going to stop here for the night. I realized I could go on all night about these drugs. I guess that was the story of my life. (Sad, I know) but this makes me just NEVER want to do any of them again. I've done enough share of them for a few lifetimes. (Hopefully in my next lifetime, I won't be into drugs at all)

Student76 · Oct 18, 2014

Hello i am a Student from Sweden.

Which one is better if used often? say 2 times a week.
Not psychedic if possible.I used 3-MMC 3 years lost its magic.
So I am looking.Methylon was bad on my heart and i was two days after in bad mood.
Not with 3-MMC.
So 5 or 6 APB or 5-apbd.I normally use low dose if possible.
Can you compare those with 3 mmc or methylone?differences?

Thank you Anja from sweden

The King of Beans · Oct 18, 2014

Hi Student....

Well 3-mmc also seems less harsh on the heart than methylone. But 3-mmc is honestly the drug that caused all my problems to begin with...but ONLY because I abused the hell out of it like a fool. I did it 9 days in a row before I started getting the breathing difficulty and numbess....and ever since then I have had it everytime I do the drugs (Nearly everytime)

As for 5 or 6 apb, well I recommend you read those studies that CaptainKratom posted links to. I think he might be onto something and possibly these apb's are MORE toxic than the rest. Me personally, I have not done a lot of apb's because I didnt care for them....so I never got any heart problems from them. Even now I don't....but I only did 5mapb twice.....and it was my FAVORITE. Less comedown than MDMA (No comedown actually) and lasts longer and is stronger. Amazing drug....but be careful! Do you get any breathing difficulty from stims or any numbess?

Rio Fantastic · Oct 18, 2014

As others have said, stop now, seek medical advice.

Can abusing Methylone and other stims 3+ times a week, over a year or two, Kill you?

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