Boycott Singapore - Van's unfair sentance
- Thread starter endlesseulogy
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Charlie Brown said:
I've got some great ones if you want me to PM them to you...8) 8)
Seriously I'm sick to farking death of people blaming everyone else, the Government, Singapore, whatever...there's only one person to blame. Van himself.
And as for a minutes silence, fark off. Heroes get remembered with a minute's silence, not a convicted trafficer. As for me, I 'marked' the occasion by turning off the news before it happened because I just didn't care...made myself a nice coffee, cranked the stereo up and ate a fullfilling breakie whilst reading a mag, and then went to work as normal.
As one great opinion piece in the Age today put it...he fought the law, and the law won.
endlesseulogy
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iamtha1 said:
Right on! Good post. Its about time the governments of the world sat down and reviewed incumbant drug laws that are useless, un-realistic and based totally on double-standards, crookary and hypocracy. Legalise, control, help addicts = erradication of black markets.
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keej
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As another point, I caught a cab to a meeting today and the taxi driver had Ray Hadley on in the morning. Of course I usually can't stand the tripe that comes from him, but he was making reasonable sense for once.
He pointed out that while the death sentence was too harsh / not acting as much of a deterrent, we were all getting into a massive ruckus when there were incidents within our own judicial system that ought to get people even more severely pissed off. One case was a recent trial where a man who knowingly infected two women with HIV was given a sentence of 12 years, up for parole after 9 (news article here).
Since some of you fuckers felt Van deserved what he got, I think there can be no doubt that the aforementioned man was far more malicious/evil and 12 years is a travesty of justice.
He pointed out that while the death sentence was too harsh / not acting as much of a deterrent, we were all getting into a massive ruckus when there were incidents within our own judicial system that ought to get people even more severely pissed off. One case was a recent trial where a man who knowingly infected two women with HIV was given a sentence of 12 years, up for parole after 9 (news article here).
Since some of you fuckers felt Van deserved what he got, I think there can be no doubt that the aforementioned man was far more malicious/evil and 12 years is a travesty of justice.
breakyaself
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Some people in this thread have made me very sad to be a human being.
Can animals be evil ?
Can animals be evil ?
THR!
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breakyaself said:
I know. All I can do is shake my head and wonder
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Nobody is debating whether he is guilty or not. He did the crime, for that there is no doubt. That is not the issue. The issue is the penalty is completely disproportionate to the crime.
They took his life. For what? Drugs? Those things I imagine each and every one of you on this board have consumed at some stage, if not frequently. Fine, you say, respect the laws of the country you're in (or, in this case, merely travelling through). What say, hypothetically, Australia had the same penalty for distributing e or marijuana and it was your brother that was facing execution. Oh, he did the crime, you say. That's a fair enough penalty, he may have been stupid, but he broke the law and he knew the penalty. It's his own fault, what are we all whinging about?
A hypothetical situation but much the same. I am sure your opinion would be completely different if that was the case. The fact is, he might have broken the law, but the law is wrong. He did not deserve to die. And I just find it really hard to believe that some people think he did and are seemingly getting enjoyment out of the situation.
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breakyaself
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Oh, and I would like to congratulate people in this thread that have shown some intelligence towards the idea of the death sentence being immoral. According to Kholberg's Moral Development Theory that I learnt in psych which we apply when assessing criminal clients, some of the people in this thread who are completely not compassionate appear to be at a level below people like Keej, UAN, lostpunk Plazma ect ect. It seems that if you interpret the law without question, that you are less morally developed than the rest of society.
Here is an exert which describes the stages. Just so its clear, there are 3 levels, with 2 stages in each. For a total of 6 levels. Just before Kholberg died, he retracted teh 6th stage, as only people as enlightened as the Dali Lama, or someone like mother threasa could possibly reach this level. I have refrenced it plenty when interpreting people's responses to this matter. The theory is not about outcomes, but how you come to your conclusions.
The first level of moral thinking is that generally found at the elementary school level. In the first stage of this level, people behave according to socially acceptable norms because they are told to do so by some authority figure (e.g., parent or teacher). This obedience is compelled by the threat or application of punishment. The second stage of this level is characterized by a view that right behavior means acting in one's own best interests.
The second level of moral thinking is that generally found in society, hence the name "conventional." The first stage of this level (stage 3) is characterized by an attitude which seeks to do what will gain the approval of others. The second stage is one oriented to abiding by the law and responding to the obligations of duty.
The third level of moral thinking is one that Kohlberg felt is not reached by the majority of adults. Its first stage (stage 5) is an understanding of social mutuality and a genuine interest in the welfare of others. The last stage (stage 6) is based on respect for universal principle and the demands of individual conscience. While Kohlberg always believed in the existence of Stage 6 and had some nominees for it, he could never get enough subjects to define it, much less observe their longitudinal movement to it.
Here is an exert which describes the stages. Just so its clear, there are 3 levels, with 2 stages in each. For a total of 6 levels. Just before Kholberg died, he retracted teh 6th stage, as only people as enlightened as the Dali Lama, or someone like mother threasa could possibly reach this level. I have refrenced it plenty when interpreting people's responses to this matter. The theory is not about outcomes, but how you come to your conclusions.
The first level of moral thinking is that generally found at the elementary school level. In the first stage of this level, people behave according to socially acceptable norms because they are told to do so by some authority figure (e.g., parent or teacher). This obedience is compelled by the threat or application of punishment. The second stage of this level is characterized by a view that right behavior means acting in one's own best interests.
The second level of moral thinking is that generally found in society, hence the name "conventional." The first stage of this level (stage 3) is characterized by an attitude which seeks to do what will gain the approval of others. The second stage is one oriented to abiding by the law and responding to the obligations of duty.
The third level of moral thinking is one that Kohlberg felt is not reached by the majority of adults. Its first stage (stage 5) is an understanding of social mutuality and a genuine interest in the welfare of others. The last stage (stage 6) is based on respect for universal principle and the demands of individual conscience. While Kohlberg always believed in the existence of Stage 6 and had some nominees for it, he could never get enough subjects to define it, much less observe their longitudinal movement to it.
silvia saint
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kool post breaka.
please... i urge the mods to close this thread. nobody in support of his punishment will be persuaded to change their mind and vice versa. we are all regurgitating, and the "bleeding hearts" and "heartless bastards/bitches" will have another thread very shortly in which to waste bandwidth.
rip van
please... i urge the mods to close this thread. nobody in support of his punishment will be persuaded to change their mind and vice versa. we are all regurgitating, and the "bleeding hearts" and "heartless bastards/bitches" will have another thread very shortly in which to waste bandwidth.
rip van
plazma
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swifty said:
Not true, apparently Khoa's debts to the lawyers and so forth were paid for by one of his syndicate associates, who then became very unreasonable when Khoa was unable to repay him. Van sold his computer business in order to repay part of the loan for the thousands of dollars in legal fees, and only did the trip to attempt to repay the rest of the loan.
To those who make light of this, you are small people, and you drag the rest of us down by your immaturity and callousness.
-plaz out-
keej
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On breaka's point, using science or treating things factually works in a lot of situations, and I think it makes you smarter than the average bear who just reacts to situations without thinking logically through things.
Earlier in this thread, Darwin's theory was raised as an example of why the hanging is justified. Van was an idiot for doing this, thus the weakest/stupidest in society was eliminated further progressing the advance of our species.
It's ridiculous to suggest that this somehow makes it permissable to kill off the weakest in our society. I'm sure that's not what Darwin was advocating when he originally proposed that theory, and it's certainly not what the scientific community believes in. When it's phrased that way, it sounds utterly fucking retarded, but that's one way how KB justified it.
The greatest scientists had an acute understanding of their social responsibility (Einstein comes to mind for example). Pulling the scientific wank card in moral cases such as this doesn't strike me as intelligent in the slightest; it only demonstrates a lack of ability to perceive things that can't be defined by facts and formulas.
Earlier in this thread, Darwin's theory was raised as an example of why the hanging is justified. Van was an idiot for doing this, thus the weakest/stupidest in society was eliminated further progressing the advance of our species.
It's ridiculous to suggest that this somehow makes it permissable to kill off the weakest in our society. I'm sure that's not what Darwin was advocating when he originally proposed that theory, and it's certainly not what the scientific community believes in. When it's phrased that way, it sounds utterly fucking retarded, but that's one way how KB justified it.
The greatest scientists had an acute understanding of their social responsibility (Einstein comes to mind for example). Pulling the scientific wank card in moral cases such as this doesn't strike me as intelligent in the slightest; it only demonstrates a lack of ability to perceive things that can't be defined by facts and formulas.
RIP Van.
8)
I am what you might call a typical lurker on bluelight, I read but rarely post, I just couldn't resist logging in to express some outrage. I have read this thread and I can honestly say this is one of the most disturbing threads I have read not just on bluelight, but any where. The sheer number of people here who have supported this 25yr old mans execution is a good example of how far down the world is being pulled. And by a msg board which is said to promote harm reduction. Sure its fine to have opposing view points, but so many from so many people in support of the death penalty and from people many of whom have used drugs at some stage in their lives is simply beyond belief.8( The hypocracy of this situation could only be excused on the basis of extreme ignorance.
Any one who has ever been to Singapore will have noticed that their duty free tobacco and alcohol shop is the biggest, and grandest you will see any where, its like something out of natural born killers. Its one thing to have the death penalty in a country like the USA where it can be argued there is some form of democracy or representation, but when you have the death penalty for drug smuggling in a place where it is a virtual dictatorship,no actual representation for the 'people', and no open media to speak of, it is utterly disgusting, depraved and barbaric.
It could be argued that heroin is, or can be less dangerous than alcohol, certainly less toxic, but there is no doubt that 'most of the harm', whether that be AIDS, or malnutrition,hepatitus or over dose,addiction, and all the associated crime as a result of prohibition is because of the drug war. We will never know if the DEA for example tipped off the Singaporean authorities in this case, like the Australian authorities did in the case of the Bali 9 who may also face the death penalty. The Australian authorities knew that once they were caught in Bali, they could face death...they went ahead any way...no accountability.
Now Van, 25yrs, a young man, made a huge mistake, a major mistake, but that that mistake cost him his life is sickening. That the Australian authorities did so little, and continue to do so little is a reflection of the wide spread apathy and indifference to the billion dollar trade deals which trump human life. It would have been far more prudent, if economically damaging, for Australia and other nations to immediatly impose trade sanctions on Singapore aswell as advising their citezens to not travel to such dictatorships and barbaric countries where representation is absent except for alcohol and tobacco merchants among other things.
Once upon a time I went to Singapore, and immediatly getting off the plane many will know you are greeted with guys holding machine guns. What a sick society. And worse is that the world would turn a blind eye to all that shit just for making a buck. Well wouldn't you know it, I made a mistake too, I had accidently taken a bud into Singapore. Totally forgot it was in one of my jackets in my suit case. As luck would have it, that bud was not found, I didn't find it until later in my travels. But imagine, just through a simple error, I could have been imprisoned and canned. I will never visit that country ever again as long as the dictatorship prevails and the people are held down by the corruption which is every where. It may seem clean and green in the western hotels,shopping malls, down town...but beyond that it is a twisted, deranged place where the people are held down. And you won't see Aussie or America seeking to free the Singaporeans, whether through economic sanctions or other wise, so I implore all of you to stay away from that country.
As for the moderator keystroke, I truely pity you, you are a clear example of a sad individual way off the tracks, and if any one here had any sense you would forthwith be removed from this site which claims to be about harm reduction. Its not that you support killing people, its that you demean and cheapen human life to the point of making jokes about a man, a young man, who was executed in the name of the war on drugs which kills so many more people than drugs ever will.
Good day.
8) I am what you might call a typical lurker on bluelight, I read but rarely post, I just couldn't resist logging in to express some outrage. I have read this thread and I can honestly say this is one of the most disturbing threads I have read not just on bluelight, but any where. The sheer number of people here who have supported this 25yr old mans execution is a good example of how far down the world is being pulled. And by a msg board which is said to promote harm reduction. Sure its fine to have opposing view points, but so many from so many people in support of the death penalty and from people many of whom have used drugs at some stage in their lives is simply beyond belief.8( The hypocracy of this situation could only be excused on the basis of extreme ignorance.
Any one who has ever been to Singapore will have noticed that their duty free tobacco and alcohol shop is the biggest, and grandest you will see any where, its like something out of natural born killers. Its one thing to have the death penalty in a country like the USA where it can be argued there is some form of democracy or representation, but when you have the death penalty for drug smuggling in a place where it is a virtual dictatorship,no actual representation for the 'people', and no open media to speak of, it is utterly disgusting, depraved and barbaric.
It could be argued that heroin is, or can be less dangerous than alcohol, certainly less toxic, but there is no doubt that 'most of the harm', whether that be AIDS, or malnutrition,hepatitus or over dose,addiction, and all the associated crime as a result of prohibition is because of the drug war. We will never know if the DEA for example tipped off the Singaporean authorities in this case, like the Australian authorities did in the case of the Bali 9 who may also face the death penalty. The Australian authorities knew that once they were caught in Bali, they could face death...they went ahead any way...no accountability.
Now Van, 25yrs, a young man, made a huge mistake, a major mistake, but that that mistake cost him his life is sickening. That the Australian authorities did so little, and continue to do so little is a reflection of the wide spread apathy and indifference to the billion dollar trade deals which trump human life. It would have been far more prudent, if economically damaging, for Australia and other nations to immediatly impose trade sanctions on Singapore aswell as advising their citezens to not travel to such dictatorships and barbaric countries where representation is absent except for alcohol and tobacco merchants among other things.
Once upon a time I went to Singapore, and immediatly getting off the plane many will know you are greeted with guys holding machine guns. What a sick society. And worse is that the world would turn a blind eye to all that shit just for making a buck. Well wouldn't you know it, I made a mistake too, I had accidently taken a bud into Singapore. Totally forgot it was in one of my jackets in my suit case. As luck would have it, that bud was not found, I didn't find it until later in my travels. But imagine, just through a simple error, I could have been imprisoned and canned. I will never visit that country ever again as long as the dictatorship prevails and the people are held down by the corruption which is every where. It may seem clean and green in the western hotels,shopping malls, down town...but beyond that it is a twisted, deranged place where the people are held down. And you won't see Aussie or America seeking to free the Singaporeans, whether through economic sanctions or other wise, so I implore all of you to stay away from that country.
As for the moderator keystroke, I truely pity you, you are a clear example of a sad individual way off the tracks, and if any one here had any sense you would forthwith be removed from this site which claims to be about harm reduction. Its not that you support killing people, its that you demean and cheapen human life to the point of making jokes about a man, a young man, who was executed in the name of the war on drugs which kills so many more people than drugs ever will.
Good day.
endlesseulogy
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Son of Samurai said:
Deeeerrrrrrrrrr... Hick Hick Hick 8)
You talk about the media being sensational?
Pfft...
"St.Van"??
You are the one blowing things out of proportion matie.
When van died humanity took a step backwards yet again. You silly man, when i pay tribute to Van, i am not only focusing on the character himself. Im focusing on what he stood for. A crisis of justice.
ButrosButros_Grantos
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^^^Amen
I took time today to have a beer for him, everyone should have done the same, no stubbies...longnecks only...
I took time today to have a beer for him, everyone should have done the same, no stubbies...longnecks only...
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