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Boycott Singapore - Van's unfair sentance

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m4dd0g said:
You believe people dont have a right to protest now if they didnt before?
FFS, please dont give people more excuses not to evolve their morals*

* Disclaimer: No correlation to species evolution intended. KemicalBurn will probably have a testicle explode if we tread those murky waters again


Correct. By definition murder is 'not lawful'

In this context, 'murder' was intended to mean 'morally unjust killing'.
So I assume you think it's a fair/just punishment to be killed for smuggling drugs?
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Well M4dd0g, where were you when he was thrown in jail??? I don't see you or anyone else starting a thread or even making a comment about this case until about 4-6 weeks ago. If you or anyone else was such a strong believer in his innocence/his right not to die then why not let your views be heard before the media turned this into a sympathy drive. I have no sympathy for people who smuggle drugs in other countries where the penalties are known. I feel sorry for anyone who gets themself into this kind of a situation, for making such a stupid decision but I don't have sympathy or empathy for them.

Regardless of what I think about it being right or wrong for someone to be executed over drug smuggling, the fact of the matter is that the Singapore govt has taken the stance that anyone caught with over 15gms of Heroin on them will be given the death penalty. It is the laws of Singapore, not the laws of Australia or any other country and if you are caught in a foreign country the unfortunately then you have to pay the price of that country's laws. It's not up to our government to decide those laws. Just as someone who may be caught here cannot from another country with drugs cannot dictate our laws, we cannot dictate theirs.

In relation to the murder comment, I made that in reference to a comment that was made previously, saying that what the Singapore govt was doing was murder. It's not, it's the law.
 
silvia saint said:
being aware of the case sooner is irrelevant. if you're against it you're against it, now or then. cool tickets don't apply, it's not a matter of "i was listening to them before they got a record deal". with so much fucked up shit going on the world it's impossible to be aware of all the atrocities taking place from day one, especially seeing how our newstainment programs rarely inform and seek to distract.

and yes, drugs, amongst other restrictions on freedom, will never be legalized whilst people like yourself remain apathetic.

i see what attracted you to keystroke 8)
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SS - I am merely pointing out that no one seemed to give a shit about Tuong a year ago, even 6 months ago and it has only been in the last few months that the full case has come to light thanks to the media circus that has surrounded it.

Blame it on the media portrayal or whatever you believe is the reason, but there seems to be a huge amount of bandwagon jumpers not only on this forum but across the country about the sentence that has been handed down here. I am not saying that it's cool to be on or not be on this save Tuong bandwagon, but it's a reality.

As stated before I don't have sympathy for people who are well aware of the laws of the country that they travel to, and choose to break them anyway.

BTW: So my boyfriend and I share some of the same views, and some we are divided on - most couples have this in common but that is not the point at hand here nor does it have anything to do with the topic of this thread. We would both greatly appreciate it if you please leave our personal life and relationship out of this thread as your comment was completely out of line and not relevant.
 
electreauxbella said:
Well M4dd0g, where were you when he was thrown in jail???
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I was completely oblivious. I fail to see your point??
Unless you think my moral standpoint is based on just this case or what the media portays ... its insulting to even have to answer that.

"its the law in Singapore therefore its ok and none of our business" - do people really think this way?
in 1840 it was LEGAL to kill black people in America
during WWII it was LEGAL to kill Jews in Germany

If people think their next door neighbours problems are not shared and they cannot differentiate between moralality and legality we are in deep shit as a civilised society.

I completly agree with:
- Yes, he was stupid.
- Yes, the law says he should die.
- No we dont have a right to change someone elses laws.

We believe it is WRONG and we have a moral obligation to say so
 
Electreauxbella ... [edit - 1234.]

I think at this point if you're still flogging the dead horse of 'he knew it was illegal and did it anyway' I think you're probably past any chance of taking any new information on board and updating any of your thought processes, so I'm almost tempted to not bother trying to inform you again, but I will because even DUMB people deserve a second chance.

He didn't know what he was going to be forced to do until he was already overseas in Vietnam? Then they informed him that if he didn't take the heroin back, they would kill the rest of his family (which he would believe, because his family had been getting threatening phone calls, prior to his acceptance of doing the run). So by the time he got to the point where he knew what he was going to have to do, he had to make the decision between POSSIBLY risking his own life and risking the lives of his family if he backed out. [edit.]

[edit: deleted the inflamatory stuff - 1234.]
 
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plazma said:
ROTFLMFAO Good call brother.

Electreauxbella, I'm glad that you're way too cool to jump on a bandwagon and give a flying fuck about a human life or human rights. I feel like I'm in AWE of how cool you are, by staying clear of this oh so lame media hyped trendy embracing of human rights, and sticking to your fucking selfishly justified apathy.

I think at this point if you're still flogging the dead horse of 'he knew it was illegal and did it anyway' I think you're probably past any chance of taking any new information on board and updating any of your thought processes, so I'm almost tempted to not bother trying to inform you again, but I will because even DUMB people deserve a second chance.

He didn't know what he was going to be forced to do until he was already overseas in Vietnam? Then they informed him that if he didn't take the heroin back, they would kill the rest of his family (which he would believe, because his family had been getting threatening phone calls, prior to his acceptance of doing the run). So by the time he got to the point where he knew what he was going to have to do, he had to make the decision between POSSIBLY risking his own life and risking the lives of his family if he backed out. I'm not going to mince words, if you can't empathise with his position then you're a fucking unempathetic apathetic retard.

-plaz out-
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It's not that I am "too cool" as you so bluntly put it, to jump on the human rights bandwagon but to be honest I would never ever put myself or my family in such a compromising position to start with and I have no sympathy for Toung or anyone else who is contemplating doing the same thing as him.

Why exactly should I, or anyone else in the world, empathise with someone who was trying to smuggle something that would have caused over 26,000 people pain? So I don't want to support a drug trafficker who is effectively getting his just desserts - so what? Last time I checked, it wasn't a crime.

Plaz - i've seen you do it before and have held my tongue, but this time you really are letting your bleeding heart get in the way of the real issue here, which is that Tuong was caught with illegal drugs and has been sentenced according to the laws of the country he was caught in. If it was someone from another country who was caught I don't think that you or half the other "activists" on here would give a flying fuck about what was going on. People all over the world are excecuted for such crimes almost every day - where are your posts of sympathy for these people?? Where are your letters to the governments about these people??

You also say he was "forced" but everyone in life has a choice. I can tell you to jump off a bridge but it's your decision whether or not to do it.
 
KB, plazma... settle. Don't forget life>death and all that...

electreauxbella: I completely understand where you're coming from because a lot of other people think exactly the same thing as you. But do you honestly believe, that just because a certain country has written it into their justice system, someone deserves to die because they smuggled drugs? Do you really believe the punishment fits the crime? If it were up to you, would you have the same punishment for Australian prisoners? Do you think you are equipped to condemn a man to death?

If you have to say no to one of those questions, then all external details are inconsequential. The 'bleeding hearts' on this board and across Australia are essentially fighting for this man's life because they do no believe any man or government should have the right to end someone's life. He was forced into it; he was helping his brother; he knew the consequences if he got caught; he has helped the authorities all along; it was less than 1/2 a kg... none of that bullshit matters.

If knowing a man is going to be killed doesn't bother you... well, then nothing we say will make one iota of difference.
 
^ just for something different, i couldn't agree more to your post UAN ;). you voiced exactly my thoughts on this subject, far more eloquently than I could hope to.
 
up all night said:
electreauxbella: I completely understand where you're coming from because a lot of other people think exactly the same thing as you. But do you honestly believe, that just because a certain country has written it into their justice system, someone deserves to die because they smuggled drugs? Do you really believe the punishment fits the crime? If it were up to you, would you have the same punishment for Australian prisoners? Do you think you are equipped to condemn a man to death?
Click to expand...

The answer to all of your questions, in this particular case which is the issue at hand, is yes.

Look at it this way;

Hypothetically, say he got through with the drugs. The drugs go out onto the street and one of your family, friends or even someone on here overdoses and dies as a result from said drugs. Are any of you going to feel so sympathetic for him then? Are any of you going to care that his life was spared for someone you know's?
 
^ I can honestly say I would never want someone else to die because of my friend/ family member overdosing. I would be angry, there's no doubt about it, but I would be questioning why that person turned to drugs and be more likely to attempt to help other people get out of that lonely addiction spiral.

Avenging their death by causing more death just seems pointless and short sighted to me. But hey, we're obviously very different people and lets leave it at that.
 
electreauxbella said:
It's not that I am "too cool" as you so bluntly put it, to jump on the human rights bandwagon but to be honest I would never ever put myself or my family in such a compromising position to start with and I have no sympathy for Toung or anyone else who is contemplating doing the same thing as him.

Why exactly should I, or anyone else in the world, empathise with someone who was trying to smuggle something that would have caused over 26,000 people pain? So I don't want to support a drug trafficker who is effectively getting his just desserts - so what? Last time I checked, it wasn't a crime.
Click to expand...

Have you not read any of the history behind this case? His family was already in a compromised position before he decided to do the run.

People who traffic drugs aren't responsible for the actions of those so called 26,000. You're pushing personal accountability in Van's case, then ignoring it for everyone that uses heroin. Top effort.

elecreauxbella said:
Plaz - i've seen you do it before and have held my tongue, but this time you really are letting your bleeding heart get in the way of the real issue here, which is that Tuong was caught with illegal drugs and has been sentenced according to the laws of the country he was caught in. If it was someone from another country who was caught I don't think that you or half the other "activists" on here would give a flying fuck about what was going on. People all over the world are excecuted for such crimes almost every day - where are your posts of sympathy for these people?? Where are your letters to the governments about these people??
Click to expand...

I bet many of the so called bleeding hearts here do have a lot of interest in such incidents all over the world, but they have to take an increased degree of concern for cases against Australians because nobody from other countries is going to help.

If you look at things from such a black and white perspective it's easy to say that he deserves what he gets. It's also proof that you have no fucking heart; Van evidently isn't an evil guy, and while I think a prison term would be just he doesn't deserve to have his life taken away.
 
Have you guys stopped to think that perhaps a death sentence is more humane than life in an asian prison? or indeed, a life in an australian prison?

I know what i'd prefer. they use guys like me as currency in prisons. I'd bring my own rope were the decision left with me.
 
^ I call bullshit unless you have damaged survival instincts

Multi choice pop quiz:
a. Death for smuggling is unjustified
b. Death for smuggling is right because of XXX reason
c. Morals and/or Justice have nothing to do with it

My reply:
a. you agree with me
b. i consider you morally immature
c. you're opinion may be valid; but totally irrelevant in my mind

Of course I could be wrong ... but noone has added anything new to this debate in the last few pages

im done :)
 
electreauxbella said:
I have no sympathy for people who smuggle drugs in other countries where the penalties are known. I feel sorry for anyone who gets themself into this kind of a situation, for making such a stupid decision but I don't have sympathy or empathy for them.
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i'm confused.

[edit: deleted the inflamatory stuff - 1234.]
 
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electreauxbella:

So back in late high school right... what music were you listening to? Probably bopping along to Madonna, Belinda Carlisle, the Offspring, Nirvana or whatever the hell else was popular at the time, just like most of us.

Where were you when electro was born? Grandmaster Flash, Herbie Hancock, Afrika Bambaataa, Kraftwerk etc etc.

Were you listening to those artists from the moment they made their first releases? Or did you hop on the electro bandwagon when compilation-friendly acts like Felix and Miss Kitten start making more accessible 'electro-clash' tunes?

What about Cut Copy's 'Bright Like Neon Love'... when did you hear about that? Did you read about it on a website somewhere, a friend mention it to you? I'm sure there are some fans that would think unless Dan Whitford himself handed you a pre-release copy of this album, you're just another one of kids on the "bandwagon".

What right do you have to call yourself an 'electro' fan when you weren't there from the start? How does it feel when other people who have been listening to electro since the 80's call you a sheep and presume that you just jumped on the bandwagon when it got popular? Does that seem fair?

What right do you have to question other people's motivations for having an opinion in this case? So only people who work in the field of human rights have the right to offer an opinion and everyone else should just STFU?

Are people's contributions only valid if they can prove their interest in a cause is long-standing and can be traced right back to the time it started? So I guess any money given to charities that work in Sth East Asia since the tsunami should be flushed down the toilet too since it's all from mindless sheep jumping on the bandwagon.

I'm sure you'll find that most people who are voicing their opposition to Nguyen's execution have always held the view that the death penalty itself is fundamentally wrong. Their opinions are as valid as the next person's, just as anyone should be allowed to buy a ticket to see Fischerspooner, whether they started listening five minutes or five years ago.
 
Just what, exactly, do people think they are going to boycott. What goods does Singapore trade with Aus that are so vital its going to make them reconsider the punishment. I'm curious.
 
twe@k said:
Some public commentators who claim to have intellect and some politicians who make no such claim, say they so strongly support capital punishment they would willingly carry out the ghastly deed themselves. .
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Neil Mitchell apparently missed the interviews with the hangman, who relishes his work :\

The thing that pisses me of about this whole thing is taht it is a total media beat-up and the people getting so sanctimonious at the moment are likely the same people who got whipped into moral indignation by the media and applauded the government for their Tampa decision, or the sinking of SIEVX. No, this kid doesn't deserve to die but the Aus public has to stop reacting to every sensationalised media beat-up thrashed out over our TV screens.
 
The hostility from fellow BL'ers towards Nguyen is what I find hardest to understand about this thread.

Singaporean law deems the death penalty to be an appropriate punishment for anyone caught in possession of more than 15 grams of heroin. This law is perceived to be fair because they believe it is in proportion to the harm that the drug can cause to society.

If you agree with this sentence, then it's logical to assume that you are greatly concerned about the effect of illegal drugs on society, concerned enough to condemn a young man to death for trafficking in it.

By what phenomena of cognitive dissonance are you then able to separate Nguyen's crime from your own personal drug use?

I understand that Nguyen's role as a courier of 396 grams of heroin from South East Asia to Australia is a different act from buying an ecstasy pill at a party in Sydney, but to me, the difference is one of degree, both acts make a person complicit in supporting the same trillion-dollar industry.

I doubt that there are any Mr Big's in the global drug trade who refuse to touch heroin on ethical grounds; the people that move your pills from Amsterdam to North America are just as likely to be involved in moving heroin from Burma to New Zealand.

It's like saying, "Oh, I own and drive a car but I'm a staunch environmentalist. I think oil company CEO's should all be shot for what they're doing to our planet."

Instead of feeding your bloodlust by baying for the death of Nguyen, those of you who agree with the sentence can do a lot more to fight the scrouge of illegal drugs by turning in your dealer's details to the nearest police station.

Sorry but if this isn't hypocrisy, what is?
 
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