Best psychedelic for consciousness without context? Assuming need for low dose.

[TheAppleCore]

Meditation is not like school where you treat it as doing work for a result; not everything needs a point, a purpose, or a goal, especially meditation.

Now THAT is something I can dig. Living purely in the moment, without desires or fears for the future.

Except, here's my problem with this Buddhist flavor of meditation. Once you've truly immersed yourself in the present, there's no reason to meditate. Why bother, if you're not concerned with maintaining this enlightened state? If you've truly given up your desires, you certainly don't desire heightened awareness - why meditate?

Meditation, with respect to a Buddhist spiritual quest, is at best, an exercise which eventually demonstrates the pure futility of attempting to gain enlightenment by spiritual exercises.

 

[Solipsis]

Once you've truly immersed yourself in the present, there's no reason to meditate.

Seems self-contradicting to me. And feeling like you are much more immersed in the present than you are used to does not mean you are *there*, the point is not to reach some enlightened goal, at least this is not the case in the Zen practice I attend weekly in a group and other Zen practices I have had contact with in the past. I think it is worth maintaining the practice regardless of progress, even if some parts of it do get more natural and easier over time, or can linger more or create similar tendencies in everyday life.

Why bother, if you're not concerned with maintaining this enlightened state?

Partially because being in that state temporarily has many beneficial effects on your mental health,

If you've truly given up your desires, you certainly don't desire heightened awareness - why meditate?

and also because there are many misconceptions or disagreements about if enlightenment and mystical states are the same kind of path to be on, and if one should desire absolutely nothing. Having ideals in mind can be pretty healthy for your life, but it is too great an attachment to things that can cause suffering. These nuances are easily oversimplified or overlooked.

Meditation, with respect to a Buddhist spiritual quest, is at best, an exercise which eventually demonstrates the pure futility of attempting to gain enlightenment by spiritual exercises.

It has already been pointed to: it is not really like a school to work through and finish IMO. Regular meditation can help to keep you awake and aware on a certain level to keep being truthful and open with yourself.
Because during meditation there is an opportunity for conflicts, questions, worries, impressions, enthousiasms and many other things to bubble up. A good way to deal with that is not really to eliminate all thought or to teach your brain to shut up, but to learn to reduce resistance (interactions and overidentification with parts of your self image) and not get hung up on the things that bubble up (again, a form of attachment, fixation or other inflexible and narrowminded mental behaviors). If you just let it all come and go without complication, it can be quite valuable.

By the way, I might practice Zen buddhism but I have or try to have only few beliefs. Rather than a belief system I feel that it is good to approach as a "course of action" in life to promote things like morality, compassion and inner peace.

 

[kidklmx]

I think this wikipedia article (and a bit of clicking) would sum it up nicely, there is an actual gain to be had from meditation.

I understand where you're coming from though, an ego-smashing psychedelic experience would achieve OP's desired results much faster. But not everyone wants to experience such a thing, it is quite extreme (as you probably know).

 

[astralprojectee]

If anyone has an experience they would like to share as far as consciousness with these psychedelics, please feel free to share. I know I should have said that in the beginning. Oh well.

 

[Crashing]

I'm curious. The phrase "I am" makes me think of Rene Descartes, who said "I think, therefore I am." In that sense, I'm always aware that I "am" (I exist), whether I meditate or not. But I don't think that's what you mean. Can you elaborate on the "I am" realization, and what exactly it entails?

Well there is a lot of semantic rules in the western-eastern pseudo-philisophy. Being aware, knowing, and experiencing are different. In everyday life, there is a disconnection between what you know and what you feel. Now, you can know that you exist - but i would argue that the awareness is only achieved through experience. This experience is usually called a 'peak experience' or 'religious experience' for lack of better terms, and is usually not thought to exist until it has happened. (Usually, we don't think there is a more 'real' awareness of ourselves)

It's a subjective topic, but imagine that instead of knowing you exist, you just think you know because of teachings through language...

So, if I were to study the physics of roller coasters my entire life, how to build them, how they work, what they do to the mind and body, I could reach a point in which I wouldn't even need to ever get on the ride in order to 'know' everything about them. Through language I have gotten to the point of understanding roller coasters. The only problem is, think as hard as I may, I will never really be aware of the all encompassing feeling that is riding a roller coaster.

This is kind of how i view our everyday lives and our perception of existence and knowledge. There is no gap between mind and body, which we know (we are taught this through educational language and metaphors).. but it takes direct experience of this feeling to truly be aware of it, or at least it did for me.

In conclusion, the way I think of it is this: We first have to think (past-present), then we have to become aware (present), and finally we know (present-future).

Meditation, with respect to a Buddhist spiritual quest, is at best, an exercise which eventually demonstrates the pure futility of attempting to gain enlightenment by spiritual exercises.

Meditation in my opinion is a great way to develop self control. 'Gaining enlightenment' is only a metaphor that an outside observer can place on you as your lifestyle changes become more apparent.

What you're saying is not well supported because you're just playing with the language that you've learned, but you haven't actually gone on a meditative retreat i am assuming.

 

[MrFister]

Generally speaking I think most low dose psychedelics help out with consciousness expansion. I know 1-2 mg of 2c-e, and a separate experience of 1/2 tab of lsd both yielded gentle "trips" - if you'd even call them that - where I could sit and think.

 

[astralprojectee]

Generally speaking I think most low dose psychedelics help out with consciousness expansion. I know 1-2 mg of 2c-e, and a separate experience of 1/2 tab of lsd both yielded gentle "trips" - if you'd even call them that - where I could sit and think.

Nice call MrFister.

I have been researching 4-aco-dmt AKA O-Acetylpsilocin AKA Psilacetin and it seems like a REALLY good candidate. It is one of the few psychedelics that is very easy on the body and ego while going very deep.

Peace.

 

[TheAppleCore]

there are many misconceptions or disagreements about [...] if one should desire absolutely nothing. Having ideals in mind can be pretty healthy for your life, but it is too great an attachment to things that can cause suffering.

Good point. However, I know from personal experience that (at least in my case) the attachment to non-attachment, or the desire for non-desire is self-defeating. And meditation is a symptom of this unhealthy desire. I've achieved this state of Buddhist "enlightenment" before, I know exactly what it refers to - for me, it only comes when I decide I'm bored of meditation, get up, and go about my day. Which is very much in line with the classical Zen perspective.

This is not to say that meditation is always pointless. I concede that there could be many benefits of meditation that I could be ignoring. I am simply saying that practicing the ideals of Buddhism is *not* one of them.

It's a subjective topic, but imagine that instead of knowing you exist, you just think you know because of teachings through language...

So, if I were to study the physics of roller coasters my entire life, how to build them, how they work, what they do to the mind and body, I could reach a point in which I wouldn't even need to ever get on the ride in order to 'know' everything about them. Through language I have gotten to the point of understanding roller coasters. The only problem is, think as hard as I may, I will never really be aware of the all encompassing feeling that is riding a roller coaster.

This is kind of how i view our everyday lives and our perception of existence and knowledge. There is no gap between mind and body, which we know (we are taught this through educational language and metaphors).. but it takes direct experience of this feeling to truly be aware of it, or at least it did for me.

This is a really nice description.

What you're saying is not well supported because you're just playing with the language that you've learned, but you haven't actually gone on a meditative retreat i am assuming

I speak only from extensive personal experience - years of attempting to practice the principles of Taoism / Buddhism (they are really one and the same). At this point, I consider myself somewhat of an authority on the topic.

 

[johannes kreisler]

3-MeO-PCP is the most complementary to Zen meditation of everything I have tried, much more so than ketamine.

this got me really interested. what dose do you suggest for that purpose? quite experienced with ket and MXE. and for this very reason never touched the 3-meo-pcp in my posession. I felt that MXE is an extremely interesting compound but it tricks you into some spiritual potholes...so I chose to keep clear of this kind of compounds...

 

[astralprojectee]

"Originally Posted by Solipsis ~ 3-MeO-PCP is the most complementary to Zen meditation of everything I have tried, much more so than ketamine."

I've got a question also for you Solipsis. Have you tried 4-aco-dmt? If so how does it compare?

Thanks.

Peace, love, and light.

 

[2002Tii]

Great thread, some really good discussion going on albeit slightly off topic. I think in this case the definition of "desire" and what context it is meant in can lead to confusion. My interpretation has always been that the desires you should give up are those that pertain to material wealth and more selfish goals. In this interpretation the desire for spiritual enlightenment can be kept or discarded based on the motivations for reaching that state (if at all fully possible).
The desire for the betterment of all beings, love for all people and life, and clarity of mind (being fully in the moment, leaving the other desires) can be held on to.

Meditation and mindfulness exercises are so we can bring about this state in our waking lives and not make a conscious effort to reach these states; this has to do with the concept of non-action or Wu-Wei.

Hopefully this came out as I intended, I'm kinda drunk right now.

 

[any major dude]

I've unfortunately fallen out of the habitof meditation of late, but I still do it occasionally, and infrequently with some chemical assistance. The most worthwhile experiences I've had with performance enhancing drugs were with 5mg of 2c-c, >10mg psilacetin, 12-15mg mxe, & ~6mg 3-MeO-PCP. Respectively of course, not all at once, ha. And this is obviously more of an adjunct to an existing meditation practice than something one would do to start meditating. I imagine it could be highly distracting otherwise.

 

[psood0nym]

... this is obviously more of an adjunct to an existing meditation practice than something one would do to start meditating. I imagine it could be highly distracting otherwise.

Agreed. Pretty much any drug used during "open monitoring" will distract, as by definition psychoactives alter consciousness from baseline. Adding something to consciousness increases "context" as it's used in the title of this thread. Dissociatives can aid in going into trances and floating along with one's thoughts, and they practically induce such a state at times, but in this case that's only valuable so that you have some idea of what you're shooting for in sober practice. Assuming such a strategy is beneficial to sober meditation, I'll just offer that combining tryptamines and dissociatives is the most effective chemical means I've found to immerse myself in and be carried away by thoughts. After over a year of monthly intramuscular ketamine/synthetic psilocin use my awareness of novel involuntary memories -- an experience that strongly characterizes the ketamine/psilocin trip -- has increased dramatically, as has my ability to enter a trance conducive to novel involuntary memory evocation. In this respect tripping has helped me to monitor the contents of my consciousness by chemically habituating patterns of thought associated with doing so, though the experience itself isn't so much "floating" along with one's thoughts so much as being plunged into a surging and chaotic torrent of them. The experiences forcefully entrained my subconsciousness to do something along the lines of some sorts of formal meditation that ultimately isn't the same as formal meditation.

Long term compassionate open monitoring meditation does seem to have fairly profound results. Interestingly, as regards dissociatives (and I'm only saying it's interesting):

Lutz asked Ricard to meditate on "unconditional loving-kindness and compassion." He immediately noticed powerful gamma activity - brain waves oscillating at roughly 40 cycles per second -�indicating intensely focused thought. Gamma waves are usually weak and difficult to see. Those emanating from Ricard were easily visible, even in the raw EEG output. Moreover, oscillations from various parts of the cortex were synchronized - a phenomenon that sometimes occurs in patients under anesthesia.

The researchers had never seen anything like it. Worried that something might be wrong with their equipment or methods, they brought in more monks, as well as a control group of college students inexperienced in meditation. The monks produced gamma waves that were 30 times as strong as the students'. In addition, larger areas of the meditators' brains were active, particularly in the left prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain responsible for positive emotions.

Article

Excerpt from study article refers to:

The state of unconditional loving-kindness and compassion is described as an “unrestricted readiness and availability to help living beings.” This practice does not require concentration on particular objects, memories, or images, although in other meditations that are also part of their long-term training, practitioners focus on particular persons or groups of beings. Because “benevolence and compassion pervades the mind as a way of being,” this state is called “pure compassion” or “nonreferential compassion”

 

[astralprojectee]

I've unfortunately fallen out of the habitof meditation of late, but I still do it occasionally, and infrequently with some chemical assistance. The most worthwhile experiences I've had with performance enhancing drugs were with 5mg of 2c-c, >10mg psilacetin, 12-15mg mxe, & ~6mg 3-MeO-PCP. Respectively of course, not all at once, ha. And this is obviously more of an adjunct to an existing meditation practice than something one would do to start meditating. I imagine it could be highly distracting otherwise.

I think you took too high of a dose, at least for the psilacetin. When you take a psychedelic for meditation, IMHO the goal is not to trip or trip at all, but to just barely take enough to increase you conscious awareness and help you to relax into being. That is about it. I am not sure what kind of effects you got from that kind of dose but it seems a bit on the high side for meditation. Other than that would you recommend one of those over another for meditation. I am seriously thinking of trying psilacetin for meditation at low dose.

Peace.

 

[psood0nym]

^I think his point is probably more along the lines of what I describe in my post.

 

[Solipsis]

this got me really interested. what dose do you suggest for that purpose? quite experienced with ket and MXE. and for this very reason never touched the 3-meo-pcp in my posession. I felt that MXE is an extremely interesting compound but it tricks you into some spiritual potholes...so I chose to keep clear of this kind of compounds...

Well I only tried 3-MeO-PCP once but I did it right i.e. the dosage was enough for a full experience but without proceeding to mania (I did feel it lurking). 12 mg first, followed by 7 mg a few hours later. I think with only the initial 12 mg, or even lower for others since I have serious dissociative tolerance, would be plenty for meditation.

"Originally Posted by Solipsis ~ 3-MeO-PCP is the most complementary to Zen meditation of everything I have tried, much more so than ketamine."

I've got a question also for you Solipsis. Have you tried 4-aco-dmt? If so how does it compare?

Thanks.

Peace, love, and light.

Yes I have used 4-AcO-DMT and to me they are nothing alike. My housemate mentioned that 3-MeO-PCP felt like the mescaline of dissociatives. Not necessarily full-on trippy with OEVs and everything but rather clear-headed and deeply calm or tranquil.

I have also thought once that AMT was a bit like the mescaline of tryptamines for me (in that it had a long duration and very pleasant peace and a feeling of dilation - not time dilation but protraction of all effects).
However there is a big difference between 3-MeO-PCP and AMT where these analogies break down: I found AMT to be very dreamy just like 4-AcO-DMT, it is easy to just drift away into reverie. With 3-MeO-PCP - even though I had CEVs when meditating with eyes closed that made me feel convincingly that the scale / size of things I was interacting with were quickly changing from massive to tiny - I felt very present, I could feel my body well. My body did feel more confortable like I couldn't notice small maladies as much, but generally the contact with my body was awesome and much better than when sober even. It even surpasses 2C-B because with 2C-B it is rather a huge sensitivity that makes the contact with the body but that is not necessarily a very 'true' feeling.

I would not use AMT or 4-AcO-DMT for mindfulness because even though they might make for mystical inner journeys, that is very different from - even opposed to - attention for the things in the here and now.

I cannot express enough how I feel that people are getting mysticism and enlightenment mixed up and confused. Mystical experiences can be valuable for philosophical insight, but they are far beyond the mundane... in this sense mystical experiences are among the hardest to integrate since their beyondness make them so profound.
IMO enlightenment is more about abiding and undivided direct experience of the mundane, therefore it is not as elusive as people think. It is just deceivingly difficult to sustain. But it symbolizes true integration of consciousness and if you go far enough with it the profound can be felt to be contained in it. Both the source code and the manifestation can be lived.
With mystical experiences it is rather about exploring this source.

Mystical experiences would be exceedingly altered states of consciousness, enlightenment would be a very much unaltered state of consciousness, even much more so than we are used to.

I am talking about this because when people are hinting towards wanting to experience special states of consciousness, I want to know which of these directions they want to go in.

 

[FnX]

Good point. However, I know from personal experience that (at least in my case) the attachment to non-attachment, or the desire for non-desire is self-defeating. And meditation is a symptom of this unhealthy desire. I've achieved this state of Buddhist "enlightenment" before, I know exactly what it refers to - for me, it only comes when I decide I'm bored of meditation, get up, and go about my day. Which is very much in line with the classical Zen perspective.

I believe I understand what you're trying to say, but I really see it as word play at best. The purpose is not to desire for non-desire as that would be absurd, the purpose, in my experience, is to realize the futility of desire and simply stop desiring. Just like when being still or stopping movement for example, you wouldn't say you move to a state of non-moving or something similar I think? You don't work to get fired from work you just stop working etc. I feel that the world play could go on forever though, maybe we all should just ditch language and meditate on this?

 

[astralprojectee]

Well Solipsis at this point I am not sure what to get. But whatever I get it will be a learning experience as I will likely need to test a couple out to see which one is best for me. Thanks.

Peace.

 

[astralprojectee]

I've got to ask Solipsis what kind of meditation did you do?

 

[Solipsis]

Well Solipsis at this point I am not sure what to get. But whatever I get it will be a learning experience as I will likely need to test a couple out to see which one is best for me. Thanks.

Peace.

Good plan, a thread like this should be nothing more than something to get thoughts going. Always best to make up your own mind.

I've got to ask Solipsis what kind of meditation did you do?

Zen, the retreat I did in the past was Zen, the group I am in now weekly is as well, I do all this together with my best friend / housemate, and we will both be going on another retreat in a month that is also Zen.
Yet I don't really feel like I am compartmentalizing / that other kinds are wrong or that I follow in a tradition. I try not to, right now I am reading a book "Buddhism without beliefs", because I like it to be provisional but not at all like any religion. I just like Zen because it is self-limiting in its own pretention and it works for me.

Anyway I wonder what other substances people would suggest, of course most psychedelics can have potential but I would like to know which ones you find exceptional for this and why.

Maybe it is good if the OP / title are left open to interpretation a bit.