Anyone Practice Voodoo? (Or other forms of "witchcraft"?)

[Ninae]

so, heaven forbid you become interested in spirituality and consciousness. but you should def check out mormons, scientology and a channel from a different frequency of reality which is coincident with a parallel reality 700 years in the future

That also struck me as a strange choice for someone advising against fringe beliefs. If I was going to steer someone away from fringe beliefs those wouldn't really be my first choices.

 

[swilow]

I take it back. Clearly Voodoo isn't dark...

I must say, I find the way you are constantly referring to voodoo as dark seems kind of superstitious and medieval. What do you mean by dark anyway? Do you mean ignorant/naive/short-sighted/vicious? What organised relgion doesn't contain some of those elements? I'm not defending voodoo, but am pointing out that it isn't really that unusual as a belief; the world over, we recall a guy getting beaten, whipped and nailed to a cross and name him god. That is some dark and weird shit right there....

Obviously, I have no time at all for animal sacrifice; I think that is madness and an absolute waste of resources, but I do see huge value in things considered dark by most. I have always been more interested in the murkier side of things, though I tend to think of darkness and light as equal and unified. I think mushrooms encapsulate such a duality, a mysterious, earthy, primal, sometimes gloomy experience of light, colour and life.

And eating shards of broken glass, so you can channel ancestral spirits, is a totally appropriate thing to advocate on a forum full of suggestible people on psychedelics.

Agreed, ridiculous but also a bit ridiculous is your claim that this forum is FULL of people tripping. I've seen no evidence from the quality of posting here that people are tripping. Though I sort of am right now on AMT and MXE :D Perhaps you are raising this concern because the topic makes you uncomfortable?

 

[ForEverAfter]

I don't think I said this is a forum full of people tripping. I recall saying that we don't know what any particular person is on, at any particular point in time... The implication being that we need to assume that they may be high / suggestible.. But, since saying that, I realize that - maybe - I'm like Ben Stiller's character in The Royal Tenenbaums. It's unrealistic, unfortunately, to try and make this (harm reduction) forum safe. It's an uphill battle, anyway... Shit happens, I guess, and there's nothing I can do about it.

As for why I think Voodoo is dark, I've seen animals tortured and murdered in the flesh.
I have seen shit people covered with chicken blood fucking having unprotected sex.
I've seen animals slaughtered in public, and children dance around in their blood.
I haven't seen human sacrifices, but they do take place.

Sure there are dark elements to all religions, but Voodoo is particularly dark / archaic. Describing the consumption of broken glass as "fun" and "like a party", on a harm reduction website full of impressionable young drug addicts, is inappropriate IMO. (No offense, motiv.) Call me conservative but I don't think that sort of thing should be promoted, in any way just because it happens to fall under the broad descriptor of "religion"... There are many religions (most of which are not practices anymore) that involve/d human sacrifice. Would you be questioning me, if I was objecting to them?

 

[Ninae]

I can't believe someone could witness the torture of animals and be willing to stay present. I would have lost my mind and rather tried to kill someone.

 

[ForEverAfter]

The situation was too dangerous for me to object... (Or, at least, I was scared.)
I don't think killing someone, or trying to kill someone, is a sensible solution.
And, by witnessing it, I don't think I am to blame for it.

 

[ForEverAfter]

a guy getting beaten, whipped and nailed to a cross and name him god. That is some dark and weird shit right there....

Crucifixion isn't a Christian practice, but it did happen historically.
There's a difference between dark ritualistic stuff and reflecting on / interpreting dark moments in history.

...

With all due respect, you haven't been where I've been and you haven't seen what I've seen.
It's quite easy to sit behind a computer and say that dark stuff appeals to you (from a safe distance).

 

[swilow]

^Same here though. I've been in jail, homeless, witnessed serious violence and experienced various forms of abuse as a child. I've seen and been involved heaps of grim shit too. I feel like I'm bragging . Point is, don't assume you because you avoid 'darkness' that those who don't avoid it haven't really experienced it.

Voodoo is pointless and ineffective ritual so how can you claim it to be dark? Its just adult humans playing a little game. It cannot hurt anyone in and of itself.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I didn't make any assumptions about you.
We're not talking about incarceration or homelessness.
We're talking about voodoo.

I'm not interested in discussing whether or not it is dark, with you.

It cannot hurt anyone in and of itself.

Yes, it can. It hurts animals and people.
With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

Its just adult humans playing a little game.

Eating glass is not a little game and what motiv described (by his own admission) was a toned down Western version of voodoo.

...

I'd appreciate it if you give me a bit of space.
I feel like you're trying to argue with me, for some reason.
What you're saying doesn't even make any sense.

You describe Christianity as dark, but you object to me describing voodoo as dark?
Have you actually had any first-hand experiences with voodoo / vodun?

 

[Foreigner]

Voodoo is dark. Use documentaries to find out more.

lol...

Most true voodoo is underground now. Modern documentaries are based on what the practitioners show tourists. The only way to really learn is to meet real practitioners from the Vodun tradition, and they're unlikely to teach outsiders anything because of the very attitude you display.

Yes there is some seriously dark shit in voodoo, just as there is some wonderfully light stuff too.

It isn't "real", in the sense that it doesn't work.

This statement doesn't really add anything to the discussion because that all depends on who you talk to.

I'm not going to bother debating whether or not animal / human sacrifices, and drinking animal blood, are "dark" things to do...

Human sacrifices? Source?

Animal sacrifices are part of most mystic traditions globally. The whole good/evil paradigm is Christian, and has nothing to do with it. Yeah, animal sacrifice is usually left hand path, but so what. That doesn't mean the aim is evil. You're acting like the expert but you betray your own ignorance in displaying a lack of knowing the reasons behind the sacrifices, something I will not bother sharing here. Pearls before swine, and what not.

In the context of voodoo, the animals are often NOT treated well, at all.

I suppose that depends on where in the world we're talking about, how the animals are raised, the state of mind of the butcher, etc...

Again, some research will uncover this.

Research cannot remedy your mundane generalizations and stereotypes.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Human sacrifices? Source?

In most cultures that sacrifice animals or even humans, the living thing being sacrificed is considered a position of high honour because of its transformational nature.

I was responding directly to you.
You brought human sacrifices into this thread, not me.
You can't suggest a topic and then act outraged when somebody mentions it, in reply.
That's crazy.

you betray your own ignorance in displaying a lack of knowing the reasons behind the sacrifices

The reason is irrelevant, to me, if they're harming people / animals.
I don't care. Call that ignorance, if you like.
I've seen enough to know I don't like it.
And, I'm permitted to say so.

There's a lot of hatred and mockery of Christianity on this board.
I'm not being a hate-monger. I'm saying that Voodoo is dark, relative to other religions.
I never said I was an expert, either. I have, however, had the misfortune to witness some shit.

Research cannot remedy your mundane generalizations and stereotypes.

What stereotypes?
All I said was voodoo is dark, which is my opinion, and that animals are often mistreated in voodoo practices.
The latter, admittedly, is observational. I guess I cannot say for certain how often it happens.
All I know is what I've seen, and it's not good.

I'm sorry if you're voodoo (I assume you are) and that's why you're offended, but that is my opinion.
Like I said, there's a lot of animosity towards Christianity on this board.

I disapprove of a religion that involves self mutilation, drinking blood and the murder of animals.
Sue me.

 

[Shadowsblaze]

I used to follow the Castenada teachings and still practice some of the methods.

 

[Foreigner]

I was responding directly to you.
You brought human sacrifices into this thread, not me.
You can't suggest a topic and then act outraged when somebody mentions it, in reply.

I was referring to sacrifice in general, not voodoo?

As I said before, being a human sacrifice was considered a position of honour. If you read the Mayan accounts that have been recovered, for example, there are written records of the human sacrifices urgently wanting to do it, their families being handsomely rewarded and being given higher status in society, etc. It's the Judeochristian view that makes it seem like everything was a horrible, suffering bloodbath.

IThat's crazy.

Oh, now I'm crazy.

The reason is irrelevant, to me, if they're harming people / animals.
I don't care. Call that ignorance, if you like.
I've seen enough to know I don't like it.
And, I'm permitted to say so.

You're of course entitled to any opinion you want, but calling it outright evil is ignorant. But yes, you are free to believe whatever you want. *shrug*

There's a lot of hatred and mockery of Christianity on this board.

Yes there is, unfortunately.

I'm not being a hate-monger. I'm saying that Voodoo is dark, relative to other religions.

Relative to which religions? Most religions have a history of heinously evil deeds. Christianity brought us the crusades, the inquisitions, colonialism, etc... does that mean we call Christianity dark, or evil? It's individuals who are responsible for actions, not faiths. What has Vodun brought us that even compares?

You are being a hate monger. Vodun is diverse and is the major indigenous religion of the African content. You're dismissing it wholesale.

I never said I was an expert, either. I have, however, had the misfortune to witness some shit.

Well, without elaboration it's impossible to evaluate those experiences as accurate or not.

What stereotypes?

That voodoo is dark or evil, which you continue to imply or state directly.

All I said was voodoo is dark, which is my opinion, and that animals are often mistreated in voodoo practices.

Um no, you went a bit further than that.

All I know is what I've seen, and it's not good.

Subjective, but thanks for asserting that again for the 10th time.

I'm sorry if you're voodoo (I assume you are) and that's why you're offended, but that is my opinion.

I'm not. I just know way more about this than you do, trust me on that one.

Like I said, there's a lot of animosity towards Christianity on this board.

Which has what, exactly, to do with our debate?

I disapprove of a religion that involves self mutilation, drinking blood and the murder of animals.
Sue me.

That's fine. I don't expect you to convert to voodoo and become a worshipper. What I'd appreciate is avoiding the whoelsale ignorant dismissal and labeling of an entire faith based on your obscure anecdotal experiences and assumptions.

"In my opinion, it's dark and I disapprove of it", is different than, "Voodoo is a very dark practice, it's dangerous, it's evil" etc...

Voodoo has a bad rep partly because of what European Christian colonists and slavemasters thought of it when they arrived in Africa, and when they were conducting their rulership of Haiti. You refer nebulously to documentaries, but most of them are garbage. There are only 2 documentaries out of a couple dozen I've seen that portray things remotely accurately, and they were made pre 1960.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I was referring to sacrifice in general, not voodoo?

So was I.

calling it outright evil is ignorant

I didn't call it evil.

Relative to which religions? Most religions have a history of heinously evil deeds. Christianity brought us the crusades, the inquisitions, colonialism, etc... does that mean we call Christianity dark, or evil? It's individuals who are responsible for actions, not faiths.

You keep repeating the word evil.
It appears at least three times in your last post.
I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth.
I never said voodoo was evil. Check for yourself.

To answer your question, though, voodooism today is relatively dark in comparison to major faiths today.
Wars being fought in the name of religion (or religions being used to justify wars) is quite different from the rituals within the religion.

That voodoo is dark or evil, which you continue to imply or state directly.

Evil, again? That's 4 times.

I just know way more about this than you do, trust me on that one.

Perhaps, but that doesn't explain your weird vendetta, or whatever this is.
If you know so much about voodoo, then why don't you spend more time discussing it?
I really don't want to do this quote for quote shit with you.

Which has what, exactly, to do with our debate?

I was making a comparison. It's weird to me that I get more of a negative reaction for calling a religion that involves drinking blood and murder dark, than other people do for outright shitting on Christianity.

Voodoo has a bad rep partly because of what European Christian colonists and slavemasters thought of it when they arrived in Africa, and when they were conducting their rulership of Haiti. You refer nebulously to documentaries, but most of them are garbage. There are only 2 documentaries out of a couple dozen I've seen that portray things remotely accurately, and they were made pre 1960.

In part, sure.
Maybe some people don't like it, though.
And that's impossible to invalidate.

If I said it was evil, which I didn't, that would be an opinionated comment.

Subjective, but thanks for asserting that again for the 10th time.

Sarcastic, but thanks for being smug for the 20th time.

 

[Ninae]

I think the John Todd speeches is where I heard the most about actual witchcraft. Even though he lies a lot, you can tell he has a lot of experience with it.

One of the things he claimed, and I don't know if that is true, was that the big record companies used to have a temple room in them and would call on a Wiccan priest or priestess to come and cast spells over the Master. He said they would conjure up demons so when they pressed the record one would go with every copy and influence the owner to get involved wth the music. And that's what all the burning of records was for.

Either way, he sure was interesting and one of the best speakers I've heard. He really did sound like a dangerous cult-leader. But I'm quite sure he worked as a fraud most of the time and mostly infiltrated the Christian youth scene to make money, win people over to the occult, get in touch with under-age girls and things like that. Although I believe he had a genuine experience of being converted to Christianity at some point. From the way he talks about "The Sword of Christ" etc. and I've also experienced those things for myself.

 

[Ninae]

I'm not going to listen, as I don't want to get sucked into his universe again, but maybe someone else would find it interesting.

 

[swilow]

I didn't make any assumptions about you.
We're not talking about incarceration or homelessness.
We're talking about voodoo.

I'm not interested in discussing whether or not it is dark, with you.

Too bad. You can't just make me not discuss something that your quantity of posts clearly says you do wish to discuss. You bought up the whole 'darkness' thing. Sorry if I didn't understand your entirely subjecive interpretation of what constitutes '"dark" but you never mentioned it so what else could I do?

Yes, it can. It hurts animals and people.
With respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry, I'm not convinced that you do either. Does it not seem weird that you would make a joke as your first response to this thread and then start implying that voodoo is actually evil and murderous? That seems to be at odds IMO.

But, either way, I think you should know better then to assume that your limited experience with voodoo is representative of the entire practise.

I'd appreciate it if you give me a bit of space.
I feel like you're trying to argue with me, for some reason.
What you're saying doesn't even make any sense.

Good gosh, I'm not trying to upset or provoke you, I'm just talking to you. I'm sorry if you feel I am being rude or something

You describe Christianity as dark, but you object to me describing voodoo as dark?
Have you actually had any first-hand experiences with voodoo / vodun?

No, I haven't. But that doesn't mean that your experiences are the reality of all voodoo practises.

I'm not trying to just argue for the sake of it here.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I've very clearly stated that my observations are limited and may not be representative of the faith as a whole.
Don't use the word evil, please. I implied no such thing.

that doesn't mean that your experiences are the reality of all voodoo practises

I never said they were.

Sorry if I didn't understand your entirely subjecive interpretation of what constitutes '"dark" but you never mentioned it so what else could I do?

It requires no explanation.
I don't have to quantify terms, just because you want me to.
I could ask you to define every word in every sentence you write.

It's pretty obvious what I mean by dark.
And, yes, dark is subjective.
I think it is dark.

I don't know why that requires so much explanation.
It's boring.

Would you like me to define the words boring or obvious, or can you gather their meaning given the context?
I'm tired of all this objective / subjective crap.

Every time you say something to a university philosophy student, they break it down...
Yes, they say, but what does "break it down" mean... really? Isn't everything subjective?
And I roll my fucking eyes.

...

Having said all that, I've already quantified.
I explained why I think it is dark, in detail.
If that explanation isn't sufficient, that's too bad.
As I said, I'd appreciate it if you gave me some space.
That doesn't mean that you're trying to upset me.
You are upsetting me, accidentally. And I'm letting you know.

Dark religious practices, including vodun, lead someone I loved to jump out of a window.
I've seen animals tortured and slaughtered for their blood.
I've seen people fucking covered with blood.
I've seen children dancing in blood.

That, IMO, is dark.

I'm not describing Sesame Street as dark.
I'm describing something that is clearly dark (from my limited observations) as dark.
Since you have no first-hand observations, your opinions are Google generated are your perspective is even more limited than my own.

...

Does it not seem weird that you would make a joke as your first response to this thread and then start implying that voodoo is actually evil and murderous? That seems to be at odds IMO.

People distance themselves with humor.
I experienced serious trauma.
This is not uncommon.

I also was attempting, I suppose, to discredit voodoo as serious subject matter.
Just because I made a joke thread about trans-racialism, doesn't mean you should call me the boy who cried wolf.
That was one thread. It doesn't invalidate the rest of my posts / opinions. Nor does the post about voodoo dolls.

 

[Ninae]

A lot of this can be traced down to the age-old conflict between Christianity and the Occult. I don't have any conflict with it, as I don't have any loyalty to either and I think it's getting past it in our times, but there are many who do.

This all stems from how up until the 60s, and even for a while after that, Christianity and underground occult movements (nature worshipping religions, withcraft, satanism, etc.) were the only two known alternatives in Western culture. So people had to choose one, and if they didn't like one they chose the other, and if they liked one they hated the other, etc.

And this also comes through in the speech by John Todd where he says that when he was raised as a witch he was taught to hate Christianity before he was taught about withcraft. He was taught Christians were the most evil people in the world, worse than Hitler, and completely brainwashed against it. That's obviously an extreme example but he said this was common in the environment he grew up in and considered it a miracle he was saved by Christianity - not because he didn't want to be saved but that he would ever come to consider Christianity as an alternative (so brain-washing works both ways).

These days things are different and people don't have to choose one of those extremes. Most will choose something else, like maybe Eastern type philosophy, or New Age type idelogy. And there's no longer that sense of belonging to one tradition or fanaticism and intolerance for anything else (which is good). This is progress, as when it's looked at more objectively you can see how both traditions have both their strengths and their weaknesses. There are things to learn from both, but there are also things about both that aren't so good, and I think this is the best way to see it.

However, there are still many who hold onto those outdated attitudes, especially if they've been exposed to material written in the 60-80s where this conflict was going strong. There are Christians who see anything other than Christianity as of the devil and wanting to learn any more about sprituality outside of that is evil. There are various forms of pagans who view Christianity with nothing but contempt and justify their feelings with wars/religious persecutions that took place centuries ago while the evil that is still going on in the occult is somehow not a problem.

 

[Foreigner]

So was I.



I didn't call it evil.



You keep repeating the word evil.
It appears at least three times in your last post.
I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth.
I never said voodoo was evil. Check for yourself.

To answer your question, though, voodooism today is relatively dark in comparison to major faiths today.
Wars being fought in the name of religion (or religions being used to justify wars) is quite different from the rituals within the religion.



Evil, again? That's 4 times.



Perhaps, but that doesn't explain your weird vendetta, or whatever this is.
If you know so much about voodoo, then why don't you spend more time discussing it?
I really don't want to do this quote for quote shit with you.



I was making a comparison. It's weird to me that I get more of a negative reaction for calling a religion that involves drinking blood and murder dark, than other people do for outright shitting on Christianity.



In part, sure.
Maybe some people don't like it, though.
And that's impossible to invalidate.

If I said it was evil, which I didn't, that would be an opinionated comment.



Sarcastic, but thanks for being smug for the 20th time.

Not really interested in arguing with you.

I could discuss more the facts about what goes on inside the religion but it's not my place to reveal such secrets, and I suspect it would be a waste of time anyway.

Your opinion that voodoo is "dark" is noted as just that, an opinion. As I said voodoo is the major religion of the African continent, and it's highly varied. Even saying that it's "darker than most other faiths" is an odd statement since it provides no qualifiers for that statement. If your only qualification for something dark is that they do blood sacrifice, then I guess most of human spirituality is dark. Even the Abrahamic faiths have their roots in such sacrifices. Hinduism too, if you've ever been to Asia and watched them bathe Kali's honorary statues in blood and urine. *shrug*

Until you understand the function of sacrifices, your statements come across as empty and ignorant, especially given the amount of magic for good that happens in voodoo.

 

[ForEverAfter]

If your only qualification for something dark is that they do blood sacrifice, then I guess most of human spirituality is dark.

That isn't my only qualification, as I've already said.

Not really interested in arguing with you.

Perfect. Let's stop, then.