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Anti-Narcissism

No, I was talking about actual diagnosed narcissists.

I don't think anyone is a "piece of shit" or "human trash".

I feel sorry for Hitler. I feel sorry for rapists.

I believe in redemption.

...

Do ANY of you guys actually know a diagnosed narcissist? Or a diagnosed sociopath? Or a diagnosed psychopath?

If not, how can we make these sweeping statements about them?

We probably have all known at least one at some point in our lives. About 1/100 people have NPD, but I've never met anyone that has told me they have that diagnosis... Considering the general attitude towards them in society, why would they?

...

I don't subscribe to dividing things into nurture and nature, because I don't believe in free will so they are basically the same thing. Nature is environmental (biological) and nurture is environmental (social).

Are people with severe autism "assholes"? But - then - hey that's not a learned behaviour. They are born like that.

It's not a distinction I care about much. Same goes with sexuality. Everybody insists that people are born gay, but it doesn't matter unless you are approving one category and disapproving another.

We should just love people, regardless.

Being an "asshole" as a response to someone else being an "asshole" isn't the solution... is it?
 
Propably has something to do with how people hate junkies and immigrants. Aka, an "enemy worth hating for". Weak minded people just want to be angry but they have been programmed to not be angry at the root cause of their problems so they take new "targets". Like how rich people look down on poor people.
 
Still none of you are answering the question whether or not you've ever known anyone who has told you that they've been diagnosed with NPD.

@HumanityIsTheDevil

I was sexually assaulted as a minor and that lead me down a path towards ultimately forgiving everyone. I am completely sober. I've also done bad things, which has helped me to understand human nature and not hold grudges against people. We all have a journey. Some of us are fortunate enough to not be fated to be victims or victimizers; I do not fall into either category.

I have been physically assaulted too many times to count. I work in disability with people who have brain injuries, paranoid schizophrenia, autism, etc. Impossible to work in that field for decades and not be mistreated.

Was Jesus naive?

understanding doesn't always mean acceptance
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What does acceptance mean? I'm not saying you have to associate with anyone you don't want to associate with, but they are who they are. Right?

Has someone with NPD tried to stab you... or have they cheated on you?

What have they done to you?

I chose not to associate with people for all sorts of reasons. Most often, I think, because I find them boring.

If someone is a narcissist, just walk away.

Answer me this - honestly - do you actually know anyone who has been forthcoming about being diagnosed with NPD?

all this hippie love rhetoric gives me the impression you're either high as fuck all the time or have just been extremely fortunate in your dealings with people
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Your comments give me the impression you are quite depressed / pessimistic.

the-simpsons-mr-burns.gif
 
schizopath said:
Propably has something to do with how people hate junkies and immigrants. Aka, an "enemy worth hating for". Weak minded people just want to be angry but they have been programmed to not be angry at the root cause of their problems so they take new "targets". Like how rich people look down on poor people.
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True after my husband passed after Afghanistan i hated all people from that area. I was just depressed and angry and had to put it somewhere
 
Frog Dreams said:
Still none of you are answering the question whether or not you've ever known anyone who has told you that they've been diagnosed with NPD.

@HumanityIsTheDevil

I was sexually assaulted as a minor and that lead me down a path towards ultimately forgiving everyone. I am completely sober. I've also done bad things, which has helped me to understand human nature and not hold grudges against people. We all have a journey. Some of us are fortunate enough to not be fated to be victims or victimizers; I do not fall into either category.

I have been physically assaulted too many times to count. I work in disability with people who have brain injuries, paranoid schizophrenia, autism, etc. Impossible to work in that field for decades and not be mistreated.

Was Jesus naive?



What does acceptance mean? I'm not saying you have to associate with anyone you don't want to associate with, but they are who they are. Right?

Has someone with NPD tried to stab you... or have they cheated on you?

What have they done to you?

I chose not to associate with people for all sorts of reasons. Most often, I think, because I find them boring.

If someone is a narcissist, just walk away.

Answer me this - honestly - do you actually know anyone who has been forthcoming about being diagnosed with NPD?



Your comments give me the impression you are quite depressed / pessimistic.

the-simpsons-mr-burns.gif
Click to expand...
NPD, is a fancy way of saying, self centered asshole. It is a bad personality trait; not a disease like bi-polar or schizophrenia.
 
Then don't put it in with true mental illness. Having a mental illness is not the same as having a negative personality trait. There are a lot of people with real mental illness, who take exception to being put in the same category as: self centered, selfish assholes
 
Frog Dreams said:
This has been lingering in my brain for years.

It seems like society only approves of hatred towards a handful of mental illnesses: narcissism / sociopathy / psycopathy.

People openly (socially) criticize narcissists. They also diagnose them.

(It tends to mostly be women calling men narcissists. This is weird because women tend to be much more narcissistic than men, IMO, but YMMV... and that is entirely besides the point of this thread anyway.)

What I don't understand is: why the hatred?

It's not like severely autistic people are pleasant to be around. I'd much rather hang out with a narcissist.

Bi-polar people can be really difficult too, but I've never heard anyone criticize people for being bi-polar.

Why are there certain labels we are not sympathetic towards?
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As somebody who has experienced genuine malignant narcissistic abuse and, on a separate occasion, psychopathic abuse, the reason why I have a bit of an axe to grind against these personality disorders is because they are hugely under-diagnosed. Our society enables and rewards them and a lot of our competitive economic systems are designed to benefit them. People who lack empathy do better under capitalism because they are not afraid to use and exploit people to rise to the top.

I don't think people with NPD or antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy) should in of themselves be discriminated against. I think their misdeeds are what warrants criticism. The misdeeds they commit are often grave, the injuries long-lasting, and they can inflict damage on an individual or societal scale.

I personally believe that positions of power and authority in our society should be screened for personality disorders. People with them should not be allowed to wield true power. This would solve a lot of humanity's sociopolitical problems instantly. However, psychopaths have their uses, due to lack of emotional reactivity. Surgeons, for example, have statistically high portion of psychopaths, which is good because you want someone who feels no fear when dealing with guts and gore. Same with soldiers in the military -- psychos are great at killing people in high pressure situations. Narcissists are great for the entertainment industry because their validation-seeking behaviours mean that they want to give the best performances and get the best reactions from the crowd.

Narcissism is vastly underdiagnosed. One psychiatrist who I follow claims that up to 30% of society is on the narc spectrum. It's also next to impossible to treat. It requires literally years of twice-a-week therapy to hope for a change. I have lived with narcissists for years and despite hours and hours of fighting and talking, they can never be made to see themselves. They will continue to be life ruiners and always blame other people for it. The ones who harmed me, they will leave scorched earth everywhere they go for the rest of their lives and will never understand why.

But these people should not work in high government office, in caring professions, work in the education system and especially not in child care. Almost all the personality disorders are created, they aren't in-born, which means you need somebody with a personality disorder to raise a child to have a personality disorder. Psychopaths are born though, it seems.

I used to think we should figure out the genetics of psychopaths and then just delete them from the gene pool. However, I now believe that genetically-identified psychopaths should be allowed to exist but be excluded from certain professions and positions of power. Let's keep them on for high-pressure, scary work that would frighten most people, or, you know, in case aliens invade and we need to send humans attached to nuclear missiles into outer space.

Autism, by comparison... I don't even get your comparison. How can you compare autism to narcissism? Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder causing communication and socialization difficulties, as well as fixed-pattern behaviour. Autistic people are not a threat to anybody.
 
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Madness said:
^ I more or less agree - pervasive narcissism I think is an adaptation and often comes with the expense of suppressing natural emotions. Sociopathy can be a result on the extreme end.

I guess OP was talking about the run of the mill "narcissist"? Like everyone I know basically? Yeah I mean I just call that confidence and everyone should utilize it to one degree or another.
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Most narcissists have a narc parent, but not all children with narc parents become narcs. Narcs usually get created by parents who shame them in the extreme and invalidate their core being when they do something that displeases the parent, with the counter-extreme of major rewards and praise for doing things that please the parent. The child does not develop their own core identity, and instead their identity revolves around pleasing others while avoiding shame or embarrassment. Basically the child attunes themselves to the narc parent and becomes the emotional regulator of the narc parent. The result is that the personality they portray to the world is a mask (or many different masks), while their core self is empty and poorly constructed. Usually they over compensate with grandiosity, even covert narcs do that. So the two clinical features are lack of empathy and grandiosity. Empathy requires core identity, which they lack, and it also requires accountability to know how you've hurt somebody, which they won't look at because they are shame-avoidant.

They will do ANYTHING to avoid feeling bad about themselves, which is why they can never be accountable. And the same bullshit their parent(s) inflicted on them as children, they eventually inflict upon you once their mask comes off. They will gaslight the fuck out of you and degrade your humanity anytime you displease them, while also showing you love and affection when they get what they want. They can never be told that they are doing this. Any negative comment toward them, they will have to correct, usually by abusing the fuck out of you. You will always be punished for criticizing them, yet they still need your validation so they don't want you to leave them and they go to great lengths to trap you. It's fucked. It's like living with Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde but they will try to convince you that this is all normal and you're the crazy one.

I can smell narcs a mile away now and at the first red flag I run like hell. Last semester I had a narc professor in school and I dropped the course after the first week, even though the course was a degree requirement. She was rude AF to the students but had tenure so couldn't be called out; her expectations constantly changed; when she made mistakes she pretended they never happened; and she shamed you personally for not understanding concepts that were her job to teach. She also went on and on about all the books she's written and academic awards she's received, and that her course was perfectly well designed so if you didn't understand it then you're the one with the mental deficiency. A perfectionist with a superiority complex who is immune to criticism and protects her frail ego by tearing you a new asshole at random, depending on which day of the week it is, but then demands undeserved adoration. I don't tango with them anymore especially when they have real power, like the power to affect my grades. I don't engage, I just leave. Any energy you give them whether good or bad will just be used to soul suck you. They are hungry ghosts.
 
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Sociopaths with a brain can pass those tests. Psychopaths have no self control and are much easier to weed out. Excuse me, I am not comparing narcissistic people with autism. Yes, Autism is an emotional mental disease. Putting autistic people in the same category as narcissists and sociopaths is disrespectful, disgusting and stupid.
 
Foreigner said:
Most narcissists have a narc parent, but not all children with narc parents become narcs. Narcs usually get created by parents who shame them in the extreme and invalidate their core being when they do something that displeases the parent, with the counter-extreme of major rewards and praise for doing things that please the parent. The child does not develop their own core identity, and instead their identity revolves around pleasing others while avoiding shame or embarrassment. Basically the child attunes themselves to the narc parent and becomes the emotional regulator of the narc parent. The result is that the personality they portray to the world is a mask (or many different masks), while their core self is empty and poorly constructed. Usually they over compensate with grandiosity, even covert narcs do that. So the two clinical features are lack of empathy and grandiosity. Empathy requires core identity, which they lack, and it also requires accountability to know how you've hurt somebody, which they won't look at because they are shame-avoidant.

They will do ANYTHING to avoid feeling bad about themselves, which is why they can never be accountable. And the same bullshit their parent(s) inflicted on them as children, they eventually inflict upon you once their mask comes off. They will gaslight the fuck out of you and degrade your humanity anytime you displease them, while also showing you love and affection when they get what they want. They can never be told that they are doing this. Any negative comment toward them, they will have to correct, usually by abusing the fuck out of you. You will always be punished for criticizing them, yet they still need your validation so they don't want you to leave them and they go to great lengths to trap you. It's fucked. It's like living with Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde but they will try to convince you that this is all normal and you're the crazy one.

I can smell narcs a mile away now and at the first red flag I run like hell. Last semester I had a narc professor in school and I dropped the course after the first week, even though the course was a degree requirement. She was rude AF to the students but had tenure so couldn't be called out; her expectations constantly changed; when she made mistakes she pretended they never happened; and she shamed you personally for not understanding concepts that were her job to teach. She also went on and on about all the books she's written and academic awards she's received, and that her course was perfectly well designed so if you didn't understand it then you're the one with the mental deficiency. A perfectionist with a superiority complex who is immune to criticism and protects her frail ego by tearing you a new asshole at random, depending on which day of the week it is, but then demands undeserved adoration. I don't tango with them anymore especially when they have real power, like the power to affect my grades. I don't engage, I just leave. Any energy you give them whether good or bad will just be used to soul suck you. They are hungry ghosts.
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narcissism is not genetic. People become narcissistic and sociopathic through their own self centeredness.
 
Jennn said:
I think everyone has a bit of narcissism in them
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That's not we are talking about. Truly narcissistic assholes who are self centered, fake, always out for themselves and possibly, once every last bit of their conscious is gone; a full blown sociopath.
 
Frog Dreams said:
No, I was talking about actual diagnosed narcissists.

I don't think anyone is a "piece of shit" or "human trash".

I feel sorry for Hitler. I feel sorry for rapists.

I believe in redemption.

...

Do ANY of you guys actually know a diagnosed narcissist? Or a diagnosed sociopath? Or a diagnosed psychopath?

If not, how can we make these sweeping statements about them?

We probably have all known at least one at some point in our lives. About 1/100 people have NPD, but I've never met anyone that has told me they have that diagnosis... Considering the general attitude towards them in society, why would they?

...

I don't subscribe to dividing things into nurture and nature, because I don't believe in free will so they are basically the same thing. Nature is environmental (biological) and nurture is environmental (social).

Are people with severe autism "assholes"? But - then - hey that's not a learned behaviour. They are born like that.

It's not a distinction I care about much. Same goes with sexuality. Everybody insists that people are born gay, but it doesn't matter unless you are approving one category and disapproving another.

We should just love people, regardless.

Being an "asshole" as a response to someone else being an "asshole" isn't the solution... is it?
Click to expand...
Frog dreams: so genocide and rape are OK with you? What does someone have to do to be bad. I know, it would have to directly affect you.
 
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