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Anonymous Post: Is this assault?

It's a tough one. I put myself in her shoes and wondered if i'd be pissed/upset if my hubby did that... maybe on a certain level - as i like to enjoy sex too, but not the level of feeling raped and violated. I'd probably ask him to wait until i was at least semi-conscious or not in a state where i didn't wake up... for me there is nothing better than being woken up to sex or associated fun. ;)

Without knowing anything about this relationship, it's hard to know whether the guy had any malicious intention... they were both really high on drugs, he was horny, was he even fully aware of what he was doing? She obviously wasn't at all.

I know that there have been times in my salad-days of drug taking that i've suddenly become aware that my husband and I were having sex and though "jeez, we're really high..."

As for her, i'd be questioning the amount of drugs she took that led to her remaining in a state of deep unconsciousness while someone vigourously had sex with her... :\
 
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A few things...

Every once and a while, a girl will say she had been raped when she has in fact, not been raped. There have been cases of kids saying they were molested that were later proved false.
I'm not calling anyone a liar her but it's not a good thing to automatically believe every accusation of rape as gospel truth. People occasionally lie for various reason. Rape is a serious accusation to throw at someone and rapist is not a label that should be handed out lightly.
Some cautious skepticism should be applied at all times.

Plus, all the posts so far have been made on the assumption that everything happened exactly as described. We don't know that. , As I have said, the info we have is third-hand and it might have been spun a couple times.
 
I'm not sure what the automatic presumption that the woman gave consent to the act is about. If the woman (or the man) is not capable of making consent, the law is very clear on the matter, that it is non-consensual sex. I'm not sure how to make that any clearer.

If it's non-consensual, then it is sexual assault. Why make excuses for bad behavior? If you have to get off that badly that you have to go after women who've taken enough temazepam to knock out a horse, then it's YOU that is at issue here.

Character assassination of rape victims is nearly as disgusting as rape itself.
 
LOL. I think it's hot, and wouldn't mind it at all if my b/f had sex with me while I was out of it. Actually, there was just a reference to something similar in the Savage Love column. Here, I'll copy n paste it:

I was extremely disgusted by I Loves Me Some Sleepin' Ladies, the "somnophiliac" who sought your advice about having sex with his sleeping wife. If someone cannot give consent in the moment, any further sexual actions constitute rape. It is irrelevant that she gave consent while she was awake. I am further offended that you did not hold him accountable. Although short, your response ("Ambien. Next!") supported his criminal behavior. I hope in the future you will hold perpetrators accountable and put a name to their actions: RAPE.

Disappointed Reader And Rape Survivor

I'm extremely sorry that you were raped, DRARS, although your baseless accusations of rape make me doubt your claim to be a survivor of rape. The feminist bloggers are going to accuse me of thought crimes: If a woman says she was raped then, by God, she was raped. (Tell it to the lacrosse team.) If this is a thought crime, well, I plead entrapment: I wouldn't have had these illegal thoughts if you hadn't sent me such a stupid letter in the first place.

We've covered this before, but the gong needs to be struck every few years: A state of implied consent exists in healthy, long-term sexual relationships. I can, for example, initiate sex with my boyfriend in the middle of the night without shaking him until he's wide awake and then obtaining his verbal consent. If I crawl on top of him at 3:00 a.m., he can say "nope," and push me off, which obligates me to go back to sleep or go to another room and beat off.

In ILMSSL's case, he received his wife's advance consent to have intercourse with her while she sleeps. The problem, ILMSSL wrote, "[is] when I try to touch her in her sleep, she whimpers, turns away, and otherwise makes herself inaccessible," which has left ILMSSL unable to "take the liberties that she has okayed." In other words, DRARS, ILMSSL hasn't been able to have sex with his sleeping wife—with her consent—because she unconsciously pulls away from him, and he stops. And this man is a rapist?

As for my one word of advice: I'd be willing to pop a sleeping pill now and then to keep my boyfriend happy, so why not Ambien?

Finally, DRARS, I hereby withdraw my consent for you to read Savage Love. If you continue to read my column against my will, well, we all know what word to apply to your actions.


I couldn't agree more with all that.
 
legally, I'm with Mariposa and Swiss Banker: it's rape. Whatever Savage says in the column quoted by Vibr8tor, there's no such thing as 'a state of implied consent', legally. Consent is something that happens at the time; not beforehand, not afterwards.

Ethically, I don't really have a problem with this if it's something that both partners are cool with. But you don't really have any way of knowing whether it's going to be cool with her on any given occasion. The fact that she's given her consent to such acts in the past doesn't imply consent in the future - by way of comparison, my girlfriend's consented to sex with me in the past - that doesn't mean I can have sex with her any time I want in the future.

So in this particular case: legally? rape. Should the girl object? That's up to her. Should the guy reconsider doing this sort of thing? Perhaps - if she decides that she isn't cool with this, then he's raped her, and she can have him charged.
 
^Obviously you have a difficult time getting your head around the difference between consensual and non-consensual sex. I don't know why, what's so difficult about it? Are you honestly just lurking around in corners waiting for a girl to become so drunk or whatever that she is no longer able to give reasonable consent?

Wait, you're the same guy who thinks that sex is something that men 'do' to women.

You creep me out.
 
glitterbizkit said:
I'm finding this thread a bit weird...

.. So technically I have raped my boyfriend a few times because I started having sex with him while he was sleeping? Oops... Big deal.
:

NO NO NO...COMPLETLY DIFFRENT

he was able to awaken and he could have said no to which u would have stopped or "RAPED" him, someone passed out on drugs who wont awaken is if i remember called "date rape" She was unable to defend herself and that my friend no matter how u cut it is rape...dont belive me?! She can call the cops tommorrow and say he fucked her while she was passed out on those drugs and he and bubba in county will be very friendly :X

My wife was rapped as a teen and the mental damage that the raped get dont always show till later...I hope she REALLY didnt care and she isnt tramatized cuz of this act!

Im lost if they where both on this how was he awake?
 
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again, waking up your partner to sleepy sex or a morning blowjob is a far cry from fucking someone while they lay there remaining unconscious. Biased feminist BS? Give me a break.8(

Being in a relationship does not give automatic consent.
 
reply from anonymous [my apologies to anonymous for the delay in posting]

Firstly I must apologise for the way I ranted on at some people yesterday, I was very upset with the situation.

Secondly (and I did state it) I had/have and will not report this to any authority BECAUSE I know it is not my place OR right. Also she has no issue with what happened.

With regards to me "kicking the shit out the guy" of cause this is not the answer, especially if the girl has no issue. However I do not trust the judicial system one bit, in the past week I have read in the paper about two paedophiles getting off scot free. My morals tell me that if the judicial system is not going to put these dangers to society away and one effects ether myself, friends or family I'll take the law into my own hands. You may feel this is wrong and I am no better than the perpetrator but I have to disagree. Men are physically stronger than women and have an uncanny knack of manipulating situations to put them in the clear, hence why so many domestic violence cases never get reported.

I know the law on this mater which is why I was/am a mess over this. By LAW she was raped end of.

My issue is a personal MOREL dilemma! The relationship between these two has been rocky and the issue of trust and 'being used' has come up before.

The drugs .... Both parties consumed 30mg Temazepam how ever the girl had also been drinking neat vodka on the drive home (un-known amount consumed). Also the guy is a regular user of Benzos and so has a certain amount of a tolerance. hence why he was still awake.

Having spoken to both parties involved I believe that the intentions of the guy where to wake the girl with a GOOD morning surprise and had no malicious intentions to begin with. I am still very uncomfortable with the fact that he finished despite the fact she had not woken. This to me is just wrong. There was absolutely NO pleasure in the act for her what so ever (she was completely passed out and didn't even become semi-conscious) ... the only person the gain was him.
 
No, I don't agree with you. While most men are ok with their girlfriend riding them while they're unconscious, I bet they wouldn't be ok with a big strap on. Bias eh?

[The poing really has nothing to do with the sex of the individuals, but the fact that a conscious person took advantage of an unconcious person. It's wrong regardless of sex.]
 
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Oh no no, don't go putting words in my mouth. The men in this thread are the ones who've said they'd be ok with it, I haven't assumed anything.

You also might want to clarify who said what up there, because as you know, it's easy to get confused. :)
 
QuestionEverything said:
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again, waking up your partner to sleepy sex or a morning blowjob is a far cry from fucking someone while they lay there remaining unconscious. Biased feminist BS? Give me a break.8(

Being in a relationship does not give automatic consent.
So it is ok to initiate sex with someone without their consent, even if they are in a state where they are unable to give consent?

Lets look at this legally.

A man or woman, doesn't matter which sex, begins having sex with their partner while they are asleep, and thus are unable to provide consent.

"Sex offenses; lack of consent."

1. Whether or not specifically stated, it is an element of every
offense defined in this article that the sexual act was committed
without consent of the victim.
2. Lack of consent results from:
(a) Forcible compulsion; or
(b) Incapacity to consent; or
(c) Where the offense charged is sexual abuse or forcible touching,
any circumstances, in addition to forcible compulsion or incapacity to
consent, in which the victim does not expressly or impliedly acquiesce
in the actor's conduct...

3. A person is deemed incapable of consent when he or she is:
(a) less than seventeen years old; or
(b) mentally disabled; or
(c) mentally incapacitated; or
(d) physically helpless [...]
Does that seem like "lack of consent"? (hint: yes)

Drugs, or just sleeping like a log, if you don't consent, BAM!

Now that we have seen that having sex with a partner, while they are asleep and unable to provide consent, is a sexual offense...

"No, I don't agree with you. While most men are ok with their girlfriend riding them while they're unconscious(this is a sexual offense), I bet they wouldn't be ok with a big strap on(so is this). Bias eh?"
Where is the bias? Public perception, and the judicial system. If a man has a complaint about this, where a woman sexually assaulted him, he will have a much harder time of finding justice and will be looked at as a freak in society, where as if a woman were to accuse a man of doing it... he would be quickly punished and outcast from society.

And your second point says "conscious person took advantage of an unconscious person. It's wrong regardless of sex."
Thus, it is wrong to even wake up a man with sex, because he is unconscious and cannot consent.

The law is retarded.
 
9mmCensor said:
Unless she ODed and died like heart stops and all that medical stuff that means someone is dead... its not sex with a 'DEAD' person. But that would be that him fucking her would have brought her back to life... in which case thats awesome.

Can I quote you/subpoena-you-as-a-witness on that 9mm? I get a lot of shit from cops, society etc. for my necrophilia and nobody ever buys the I heard her begging for sex...yes, I genuinely COULD hear the request before I dug up the coffin...;)

Hmm. Sex with a sleeping partner?

Tricky one in some ways. I was going to bullshit a response, by reading what others had written and then merging my own opinion - then removing my own opinion and ultimately writing something that no-one could a: object to or b: benefit from.

But I'll be honest instead.

The poster who asked why didn't he have a wank? was pretty much describing what happened - he had the one-dimensional solitude of the wank with the multi-facetted 'character' aspect of the sex. I'd be pleased if that didn't appeal to me but it does. I don't like to think I'd ever do it but I can't say my moral integrity completely rules it out.

There is a wildcard in play here too - temazepam. I dont steal cars 99.9% of the time. The guy that looks, acts and sounds like me (and has taken temazepam + alcohol) has a strange attraction to such activity.

Did he have any drinks throughout the evening? I say temazepam + alcohol = total misrepresentation of an individuals normal behaviour.
 
I agree with you [9mm]. There is a major grey area, that's obvious. What I have a problem with is comparing this situation to that. They are not the same.
 
"Firstly I must apologize for the way I ranted on at some people yesterday, I was very upset with the situation."
no problem, its tough dealing with moral/ethical/legal issues without getting angry or frustrated. just remain calm and logical, and don't act out in anger. actions should follow reason.

"With regards to me "kicking the shit out the guy" of cause this is not the answer, especially if the girl has no issue. However I do not trust the judicial system one bit, in the past week I have read in the paper about two paedophiles getting off scot free. My morals tell me that if the judicial system is not going to put these dangers to society away and one effects ether myself, friends or family I'll take the law into my own hands. You may feel this is wrong and I am no better than the perpetrator but I have to disagree. Men are physically stronger than women and have an uncanny knack of manipulating situations to put them in the clear, hence why so many domestic violence cases never get reported."
Nice touch of sexism... yeah don't just go hurt someone because you don't have faith in the judicial system, because if you do something like hurting someone, you might end up in the judicial then penal system to find out that it does work.

"Having spoken to both parties involved I believe that the intentions of the guy where to wake the girl with a GOOD morning surprise and had no malicious intentions to begin with. I am still very uncomfortable with the fact that he finished despite the fact she had not woken. This to me is just wrong. There was absolutely NO pleasure in the act for her what so ever (she was completely passed out and didn't even become semi-conscious) ... the only person the gain was him."
Sounds like he was trying to help. You seem to focus on the fact that she derived no pleasure from the act? Is it ok to rape someone or have no consensual sex if they enjoy it or have an orgasm?
 
Can I quote you/subpoena-you-as-a-witness on that 9mm? I get a lot of shit from cops, society etc. for my necrophilia and nobody ever buys the I heard her begging for sex...yes, I genuinely COULD hear the request before I dug up the coffin...
You don't want me as a witness. I am not too credible, and prone to outbursts of calling people in authority bad names.

Why didn't he jerk off?
"Having spoken to both parties involved I believe that the intentions of the guy where to wake the girl with a GOOD morning surprise and had no malicious intentions to begin with."
Because he was trying to be a nice guy.
 
The men in this thread are the ones who've said they'd be ok with it, I haven't assumed anything.

It doesn't matter what the men say, the law says otherwise and it must be justly applied. Men cannot assume consent and hence neither can you for them despite what they say, that was the fallacy. I didn't try to put words in your mouth you misinterpretted.
I did say that about the guy's attitude that: It might be true but it is still sexist, by a feminist defintion, because it doesn't matter what men say we have the same experience in sex and the law applies to us in the same way right? Wrong.....
I guess we'll have to agree that men and women have a vastly different experience of sex.

As far as intitiating with someone sleeping goes, that would be a huge loophole if sleeping isn't considerred "incapacitated". Otherwise someone could storm into a college dorm and havea field day.
 
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Hasn't every guy done the "come on honey all you have to do is lie there", at least that's asking. "fine I'll go have a shower"


Why didn't he jerk off?

[Do not make a mockery out of this, it is a serious issue. This applies to everyone.]


The poster who asked why didn't he have a wank? was pretty much describing what happened - he had the one-dimensional solitude of the wank with the multi-facetted 'character' aspect of the sex. I'd be pleased if that didn't appeal to me but it does. I don't like to think I'd ever do it but I can't say my moral integrity completely rules it out.

I don't kow whether to laugh or cry. I do like the brutally honest response, don't hold back.
 
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response from anonymous

"Sounds like he was trying to help". .... HOW??? Help would be giving her a shake, chucking a bucket of water over her .... not assult (by the definition of law)


"You seem to focus on the fact that she derived no pleasure from the act? Is it ok to rape someone or have no consensual sex if they enjoy it or have an orgasm?"

Well you have just answered you own question there .... “Is it ok the RAPE ....” NO!!

Think you’ll find it is a common problem amongst men that have been raped that they orgasm from the experience due to the prostate gland being up ya bum. This in fact causes MORE distress to the victims!!!


"Because he was trying to be a nice guy."

I admit that I have often though about waking my SO by tickling her erogenous zones and liking her out ... by law yes this is assault. However this is for HER pleasure (that would be my aim) and at no point would my dick penetrate her. How is having sex with and UNCONSCIOUS woman who re-mains UNCONSCIOUS for the ENTIRE act and then he finishes by blowing his load in an UNCONSCIOUS woman being nice to that UNCONSCIOUS person?????


"yeah don't just go hurt someone because you don't have faith in the judicial system, because if you do something like hurting someone, you might end up in the judicial then penal system to find out that it does work."


I would happily spend the rest of my life in prison knowing I had rid the earth of a rapist. An incapacitated rapist cant do any more harm ... My going to live in a 6x8 cell would send me insane .... then I get to live in a nice mental health hospital, go for walks in the park get a silly amount of cash from the gov and have no worries in the world. Only down side .... hospital food sucks. Don’t believe me ... go get a job at your local mental health hospital! (PS a lot of words spoken out of anger here)
 
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