Ethnobotanicals Amanita gummies as a sedative/hypnotic & for benzo taper (underrated!?)

[cdin]

Muscarine is of no importance. Unless you get a shroom with lot of it and die. Trace amounts of it in A. muscaria (named so only cuz it's first shroom were it's found) are less of a concern than ibotenic acid.
Ibotenic acid is neurotoxin that ends up in brain in certain quantity. So some "shaman" eating them raw doesn't say any more than some indian guru chugging mercury without consequences.

muscarine is a seriouse muscarinin receptor agonist. causes weird mindset, drooling, a lot of the negative sides described in high dose amanita experiences .I think that blends w the existing effects and creates the big fucking crazy effects.
IMO it's pretty telling that these experiences happen as you scale up the dose. and yes, i have had wild experiences w deliriant elements when eating a large amount of a single shroom with a bad ratio of compounds.

The ibotenic acid thing is far overblown. I was terrified of it for years - the thing is - all the studies are for in vitro application of ibotenic acid alone to monkey brains. -- Glutamate alone without GABA would produce similar lesioning and damage.
Even if you eat pure ibotenic acid, you have natural GABA, and your liver will make muscimol out of the ibotenic acid quickly. It's most likely not a good idea to IV it, but orally you can take significant amounts of ibo without significant negative effect.
It ends up as a pleasant stimulant that changes over to a relaxing muscimol experience over a few hours. Has a nice zing. The pantherinas have another NMDA compound that adds some nice depth as well.

But IME even massive doses of musc or musc/ibo have not produced a delirious / hallucinatory experience. i STILL feel that muscimol is an S-Tier psychedelic, because in sufficient dose it produces a state very similar to the most
profound LSD or mescaline experiences i have had - total understanding and acceptance of myself, a delusional feeling of sobriety. But without the overwhelming stimulation/body feels.

I HAVE had weird experiences, along with drooling when eating single mushrooms from batches that were much more wild than the extracts I get.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

muscarine is a seriouse muscarinin receptor agonist. causes weird mindset, drooling, a lot of the negative sides described in high dose amanita experiences .I think that blends w the existing effects and creates the big fucking crazy effects.
IMO it's pretty telling that these experiences happen as you scale up the dose. and yes, i have had wild experiences w deliriant elements when eating a large amount of a single shroom with a bad ratio of compounds.

I know that but, at least thought so, that amounts of muscarine in psychedelic/disso Amanitas is in amounts don't pose significant risks. But yeah, it's a toxic even in very small amounts.

The ibotenic acid thing is far overblown. I was terrified of it for years - the thing is - all the studies are for in vitro application of ibotenic acid alone to monkey brains. -- Glutamate alone without GABA would produce similar lesioning and damage.
Even if you eat pure ibotenic acid, you have natural GABA, and your liver will make muscimol out of the ibotenic acid quickly. It's most likely not a good idea to IV it, but orally you can take significant amounts of ibo without significant negative effect.
It ends up as a pleasant stimulant that changes over to a relaxing muscimol experience over a few hours. Has a nice zing. The pantherinas have another NMDA compound that adds some nice depth as well.

Wouldn't say that it's overblown, just not researched enough. It's substance less consumed than many pretty obscure RCs and yet it seems that Amanitas will gain, probably WW popularity in coming years. And that will show how overblown it really is. Tho hopefully average Joe will stick to muscimol extracts.

But IME even massive doses of musc or musc/ibo have not produced a delirious / hallucinatory experience. i STILL feel that muscimol is an S-Tier psychedelic, because in sufficient dose it produces a state very similar to the most profound LSD or mescaline experiences i have had - total understanding and acceptance of myself, a delusional feeling of sobriety. But without the overwhelming stimulation/body feels.

I HAVE had weird experiences, along with drooling when eating single mushrooms from batches that were much more wild than the extracts I get.

Amanitas I eat some days ago were really different, and weaker compared to other place where I usually pick them up. And I can imagine someone eating them might conclude Amanitas ain't really interesting. While what's usually listed as threshold dose with stronger ones produce significant effects. In fact of that intensity that I rather split what I had in multiple doses than trying a high one, as it produced a really contenting high. First time I tried Amanitas I loved it right away, for me it was like a light disso-opiate hybrid of sort.
But I sure do plan to try proper doses when I collect enough.

 

[Neuroprotection]

muscimul is unique and fascinating as a psychedelic due to its actions on the GABAA receptor. i’m not surprised it works wonders for benzodiazepine withdrawal.. however, I would advise anyone using it for that purpose or even using Muscimol for relaxation long-term, to take breaks and be very careful. i’ve tried for a long time to research the possible dependence potential but there isn’t much, with most available evidence saying it is relatively non-addictive. however, even if tolerance doesn’t develop, chronic stimulation of GABAA receptors could lead to other neurotransmitter imbalances, Raising the risks of unwanted effects like memory impairment, mood instability or depression. if I remember correctly, muscimol is more selective for presynaptic Delta subunit containing GABAA receptors, which might explain its differing behavioural effects compared to benzodiazepines. perhaps suppression of ACh release might explain the delirium component some people experience with high doses.
Actually, an analog of muscimol, Gaboxadol/THIP, has been trialled as a non-addictive hypnotic sedative for insomnia and I think it worked quite well. however, I think there was quite a few psychiatric side-effects with hallucinations similar to, but more prevalent than those with the Z drugs.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Is it true that ethanol or benzos somewhat protect from Amanita toxicity? Forgot was is it from ibotenic acid or muscarine.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Is it true that ethanol or benzos somewhat protect from Amanita toxicity? Forgot was is it from ibotenic acid or muscarine.

Not sure, I’ve never heard of that combination being recommended. I guess both ethanol and benzodiazepines could protect against. The toxicity of both muscarine and ibotenic acid via their inhibitory effects especially the anti-convulsant effect. However, since these toxins shouldn’t really reach the brain. in significant quantities, I would advise against it. my main concern is that the Muscimol and benzodiazepine/ethanol would potentiate each other, increasing the risk of respiratory depression or aspiration of vomit if unconsciousness occurs. if possible, any form of toxicity, especially involving seizures should be managed by medical professionals with access to specialist equipment like ventilators.

 

[cdin]

I know that but, at least thought so, that amounts of muscarine in psychedelic/disso Amanitas is in amounts don't pose significant risks. But yeah, it's a toxic even in very small amounts.

Wouldn't say that it's overblown, just not researched enough. It's substance less consumed than many pretty obscure RCs and yet it seems that Amanitas will gain, probably WW popularity in coming years. And that will show how overblown it really is. Tho hopefully average Joe will stick to muscimol extracts.

Amanitas I eat some days ago were really different, and weaker compared to other place where I usually pick them up. And I can imagine someone eating them might conclude Amanitas ain't really interesting. While what's usually listed as threshold dose with stronger ones produce significant effects. In fact of that intensity that I rather split what I had in multiple doses than trying a high one, as it produced a really contenting high. First time I tried Amanitas I loved it right away, for me it was like a light disso-opiate hybrid of sort.
But I sure do plan to try proper doses when I collect enough.

And gotta remember- even though there’s a lack of western research- human knowledge and use of amanita is basically in the same range as poppies and cannabis - we been eating these since the beginning. Which is quite a body of knowledge that universally reveres amanita as s tier material. All I’m trying to get at is - we’ve been eating them successfully for thousands of years and the ONE piece of research on ibotenic acid is specifically squirting it onto brain tissue in vitro. That is never a condition you are gonna see naturally unless you physically do not put produce gaba(in which case you’d be dead), or you’ve IVd the ibotenic acid and then you would still have some gaba around. These same things can be said of glutamate, of which ibo is an analog.

 

[yaesutom]

I bought a 5 pack of amanita gummies, local smoke store recently bought by some Arab family - I ate 3 of the 5 and had a trip EXACTLY like 15mg 4-aco-dmt. Placebo effect is intense

 

[cdin]

I bought a 5 pack of amanita gummies, local smoke store recently bought by some Arab family - I ate 3 of the 5 and had a trip EXACTLY like 15mg 4-aco-dmt. Placebo effect is intense

there's legit a lot of 4-ACO being sold OTC. there are several shops in my town selling an actual branded product called "psilobene" that lists 4mg 4-ACO per dose on the packaging. pretty fuckin wild.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I personally notice a definite tolerance to muscimol but I can continue pushing dose higher if I like; but it begins to seem like a waste of Nita’s and better to skip a few days here or there.

Yeah, there is definitely tolerance, but it develops quite slowly and gracefully. I don't know why everyone on the internet says it does not develop tolerance. I mean hell, the body becomes tolerant to literally almost everything, it's called homeostasis

Tolerance is the reason I haven't taken any for 5-6 days, because 2 gummies wasn't doing much at all anymore, and taking more than that makes me feel slightly icky for a bit.

 

[cdin]

Yeah, there is definitely tolerance, but it develops quite slowly and gracefully. I don't know why everyone on the internet says it does not develop tolerance. I mean hell, the body becomes tolerant to literally almost everything, it's called homeostasis

I will definitely say though - there is no withdrawal that I have been able to notice. I have used both amanita itself and pure muscimol for months on end without any type of WD developing. and my gABA system is shot.
one off benzos or ethanol will fuck me up proper. -- Muscimol is basically my ethanol replacement at this point, ill use it going out to bars etc/hanging out with people.

I will say I for sure prefer a purified, well made muscimol product over the raw extracts I've been eating lately, but both are great.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Indeed no withdrawal. Not only did I not experience any benzo withdrawal, I did not experience any secondary withdrawal from amanita when I stopped both.

Honestly, I feel BETTER than when I even started the benzos. I feel like amanita is a powerful agent to heal and reset the GABA system.

Although that could just be cognitive bias, because I quit drinking alcohol 3-4 months ago, and my GABA system is healing from years of alcoholism, which is why maybe I feel so good.

I will say I for sure prefer a purified, well made muscimol product over the raw extracts I've been eating lately, but both are great.

Yes, I am going to try to find pure muscimol next. It's not too expensive.

This extract I'm taking does tend to give me a mild headache and mild queasiness sometimes.

 

[cdin]

From what I gather muscimol is not physically addictive, because it is almost identical to GABA and simply replaces GABA at the neuron without otherwise effecting the receptor. Thus it does not downregulate or cause other changes to the receptors that would cause withdrawal.

Very similar structure to GABA:

not only that - if you have damaged the conformational shape of your GABA receptors thru GABA PAM usage, muscimol binding at your GABA sites helps to reshape the receptor and get your receptors more able to utilize your natural gaba.
Took me a long time to figure out that benzo withdrawal is basically GABA system diabetes. which is terrifying IMO.


My experience is that true gaba agonists that just sit on the receptor/don't modify the voltage are either much more forgiving or devoid of wd symptoms.
have taken muscimol for months without issue. I have taken baclofen for several years, and while I did not attempt a jump off CT, I did a simple linear titration over 1 week with 0 issues.
which is worlds away from my experiences with booze or GABA PAM agents.

edit: lol, i just posted the stuff above right as you posted your last post @Snafu in the Void ---- YES ---- It is a healing agent par excellance for the GABA system.
I was first clued into it when a friend who does ibogaine sessions let me know they were doing MRIs on people pre- and post, and they also did a few with benzo
folks they were too freaked out to give ibo, and instead opted for amanita. He said there were noticeable differences in the scans pre/post muscimol.

IMO the world fucked up badly going the miltown/librium/valium route, and also IMO it was greed that got us here. clearly, the way to go from a pharmacological/chemistry perspective
USE THE WELL-TESTED, SUPER KIND FULL AGONIST YOU ALREADY HAVE FROM NATURE as the basis for most treatments.
This was obviously less attractive as simply purifying the main natural constituent and having muscimol tablets available would pretty much obviate the need for the entire benzo industry.
failing that they tried ONCE to make an analog, and abandoned it due to issues that are consistent across the entire Z-drug class (fucked up delirious hallucination and absurd midnight cooking lol)

 

[cdin]

Indeed no withdrawal. Not only did I not experience any benzo withdrawal, I did not experience any secondary withdrawal from amanita when I stopped both.

Honestly, I feel BETTER than when I even started the benzos. I feel like amanita is a powerful agent to heal and reset the GABA system.

Although that could just be cognitive bias, because I quit drinking alcohol 3-4 months ago, and my GABA system is healing from years of alcoholism, which is why maybe I feel so good.



Yes, I am going to try to find pure muscimol next. It's not too expensive.

This extract I'm taking does tend to give me a mild headache and mild queasiness sometimes.

beware. There is awareness among scammers about desire for this product. I have searched far and wide and afaik anyone selling purified muscimol on the web atm is full of shit, especially at the prices being offered.
Last i checked, the sites in question were just vending pregabalin

the only reason I've experienced purified musc is from a very industrious and cool friend who was processing biomass for himself for a long time and let me buy some awesome oils and even purified muscimol crystal,
which is super oily.

 

[Frog Dreams]

You guys should just go and pick the caps. Most of them around here get left in the ground to rot.

 

[burn out]

They definitely differ batch to batch and shroom to shroom. I think a big extract or lots of shake is ideal because you get a more standardized effect. I personally notice a definite tolerance to muscimol but I can continue pushing dose higher if I like; but it begins to seem like a waste of Nita’s and better to skip a few days here or there.

I have now consumed massive quantities of all types of it. I have still only had a few experiences that edge into psychedelic/ deliriant. 90% gaba/glut type action.

Also for whomever mentioned her earlier- amanita dreamer is very visible , but her information often skews to n=1 super hippy nonsense. She’s quite controversial in the larger amanita science community. Definitely take her content w a grain of salt imo.

Well, I am somewhat of a hippie myself so maybe that's why I relate to her content but I already do take everything she says with a grain of salt. For one, she seems to think amanita doesn't work on people who smoke cannabis regularly and that was not my experience, nor have I ever heard that anywhere else and secondly my first major source of information on amanita came from the soma shamans (anyone know what happened to them btw? They disappeared from the internet about a year ago) and they were even more extreme hippie types than amanita dreamer, so ironically she seems pretty down to earth compared with what I'm used to.

However, I still consider the Soma shamans as my gold standard for amanita knowledge as nearly all of what they said has been true in regard to my own experiences whereas not as much with amanita dreamer (for example the cannabis thing). On that note, I might as well pose the question here. Were/are you guys cannabis users and did amanita work on you when you were smoking cannabis regularly?

 

[SpiralusSancti]

All I’m trying to get at is - we’ve been eating them successfully for thousands of years

Plenty of traditional medicine turned out to be unacceptably toxic or almost ineffective. There's many different medicine used in Chinese traditional medicine that turned out to be more harm than good. Reason why there's many findings specifically in Chinese traditional medicine compared to let's say Ayurvedic medicine, might be contributed to fact that in China traditional medicine is considered legit too, along modern medicine, so there's scientific research about it.
I don't feel too content with idea that just cuz something was used since ever means it's perfectly safe. And for some reason Amanita use was never, at least in recorded history, in wide-spread use. That's curious as Datura & similar plants were and are used by more people. In my country everyone knows you get high from Datura and similar plants and aren't really aware how dangerous it's use is, while Amanita muscaria is considered toxic by most people. I hardly ever met someone outside psychonaut circles that's aware that shroom is first of all psychoactive and it seems pretty safe. I'm writing cuz you say it's used for thousand of years so it says something, doesn't than lack of popularity outside a few countries say something too?
Just for the record I too personally feel and conclude from what I know so far about it that psychoactive Amanitas have a good safety profile. But I wouldn't bet that there aren't serious problems that can arise from heavy or prolonged use. In a sense damaging yourself for personal development and knowledge is acceptable and valid path for some people but those are in minority. Most people when truly aware of risks or experiencing them first hand back of, back of far away from such things.
Also since you mentioned weed, many Indian gurus smoking chilums almost constantly as act of devotion consider such practice damaging. If nothing to the lungs. And hardly any will advocate use of cannabis, and definitely not in a way they do it.

 

[Neuroprotection]

On this Joe Rogan podcast this guy gives his crazy experience with powerful Muscimol containing mushrooms. it’s both fascinating and terrifying at the same time.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Muscimol sounds like it has a lot of therapeutic potential, but it might also help to guide The development of new pharmaceuticals targeting the GABA System. below is the Wikipedia link to gaboxadol, a very close muscimol analog with almost identical effects doesn’t demonstrate reinforcing effects despite activating dopamine neurons in animals. I guess this explains why Muscimol is considered non-addictive. in regards to how this is possible, my theory would be that muscimol and it’s analogues activate GABAA receptors in such a way that prevents the nucleus accumbens from registering any dopamine release as a potential reward. that’s not to say you can’t feel good whilst on it, just that on a biological level, it is much less rewarding than benzodiazepines, other traditional hypnotics and opioids ETC.

Gaboxadol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Jabberwocky]

Muscimol sounds like it has a lot of therapeutic potential, but it might also help to guide The development of new pharmaceuticals targeting the GABA System. below is the Wikipedia link to gaboxadol, a very close muscimol analog with almost identical effects doesn’t demonstrate reinforcing effects despite activating dopamine neurons in animals. I guess this explains why Muscimol is considered non-addictive. in regards to how this is possible, my theory would be that muscimol and it’s analogues activate GABAA receptors in such a way that prevents the nucleus accumbens from registering any dopamine release as a potential reward. that’s not to say you can’t feel good whilst on it, just that on a biological level, it is much less rewarding than benzodiazepines, other traditional hypnotics and opioids ETC.

Gaboxadol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I really want to try that one.

I think it scored too highly on abuse potential as well as a strong delirium, so they shelved it during trials. Yet, zolpidem also has such issues...

 

[Neuroprotection]

I really want to try that one.

I think it scored too highly on abuse potential as well as a strong delirium, so they shelved it during trials. Yet, zolpidem also has such issues...

Thanks for reminding me. Yes, delirium was one of the main side-effects. in regards to abuse potential, I think that was a reference to The likelihood of people experimenting with it for non-medical uses. however, I think if it was made available again, abuse, potential would be self-limiting as only certain groups would be interested in repeatedly using it. then again, I may well be completely wrong since there’s been so little research on this unique class of compounds.