Alcoholism discussion thread v. 5.0

[LaserHosen]

I've basically ruined substances for myself anyway. My liver can't handle anymore liquor or painkillers. I used to abuse stimulants so much that now, for some reason, I can't even take a sip of caffeine without feeling like my heart is going to explode for hours. ...I've run out of "cures." My only choice anymore is to fully experience and deal with every negative thought and memory floating around in my head.

I'm not making any assumptions about your level of personal fitness, but have you tried doing some kind of gentle cardiovascular training? Walking, running or swimming?

Usually, when I'm off the booze I do a lot of running and have at times become obsessed with swimming. SOmetimes building up to 6 mile runs and hitting the pool to bash out forty lengths. When I get into a routine like that my heart kind of turns into a machine that could cope with the highest caffeine doses.

When I'm drinking (which I am now) I get very apathetic and do nothing. As a reult my fitness level hits bottom and I could get light headed and chest pumping just from walking up some stairs quickly.

All I'm saying is that you can train your heart with regular exercise, starting off with long walks if you aren't used to it.

 

[Sepher]

The odd thing is that, unlike a lot of you, the more often I drink (in the evenings), the fewer side-effects I have. I don't get hangovers or morning-after anxiety any more, I don't black out, even after drinking a fifth of bourbon. I can sleep without waking up at 2am the way I used to. I know it's screwing me in the long run, but subjectively it feels so much less damaging than it did before I was a regular drinker. What can you guys suggest as a strategy for inserting some sober nights into my week?

This is essentially tolerance, metabolic tolerance being a temporary effect of hard drinking. When you start drinking heavily the liver quickly ramps up production of alcohol dehydrogenase, the enzyme responsible for metabolisation of alcohol to acetaldehyde to compensate, reducing the effects of further drinks somewhat. Acetaldehyde is further metabolised by acetaldehyde dehydrogenase and glutathione into acetic acid which is then expelled from the body. The liver only stores so much glutathione so when you binge over a coupla days you reach a point where the body struggles to break down the acetaldehyde and toxic quantities build up, causing the familiar effects of alcohol poisoning but until you hit that point you can drink pretty heavily without too much in the way of ill effects like bad hangovers.

Eventually the damage caused by alcohol long term tends to lower tolerance, as the liver becomes less effective at metabolising the booze. Alcoholics for instance frequently get drunk faster than non-alcoholics, stay drunk for longer, and suffer worse hangovers because the liver isn't so good at breaking down alcohol and ridding the body of toxic metabolites like acetaldehyde. That's a real warning sign, but you don't seem to be there yet. Keep it that way.

 

[blahman8000]

I'm not making any assumptions about your level of personal fitness, but have you tried doing some kind of gentle cardiovascular training? Walking, running or swimming?

Usually, when I'm off the booze I do a lot of running and have at times become obsessed with swimming. SOmetimes building up to 6 mile runs and hitting the pool to bash out forty lengths. When I get into a routine like that my heart kind of turns into a machine that could cope with the highest caffeine doses.

When I'm drinking (which I am now) I get very apathetic and do nothing. As a reult my fitness level hits bottom and I could get light headed and chest pumping just from walking up some stairs quickly.

All I'm saying is that you can train your heart with regular exercise, starting off with long walks if you aren't used to it.

After I quit drinking and got home from detox, I did decide to make a commitment to exercise and I work out every other day. I also walk everywhere I go, which averages out to a few miles a day. When I was a drunk, I couldn't have possibly put such effort into anything. So it's a nice change of pace. I feel a lot more healthy now than I did for years.

I don't know whether or not I can handle caffeine now, as I've pretty much avoided it after all the panic attacks it's given me. Part of me thinks that I'm better off either way, though. I have a way of overindulging in just about everything I can get my hands on, and that includes caffeine (at least when I could handle it). I used to drink several cups of coffee a day, which of course eventually lead to a crash later in the day. I used to be totally hooked on caffeine. So it's pretty strange that for a while now, I've had to avoid it like the plague.

I still crave drugs, though. What sucks is that my body has essentially ruled out drugs and booze, because of all the damage I've done I guess. I don't crave alcohol nearly as much as I crave benzos or opiates. Alcohol was my biggest substance problem, easily, but I drove it into the ground and now the thought of it makes me sick. Alcohol almost killed me. But that aside, to just be able to chop up a nice long line of Oxy would be like a guarantee that I'll have a few hours of feeling true joy for the first time in a VERY long time. And there is this little voice in the back of my mind telling me that after all this, I deserve at least that. But my drug connections are gone, I'm broke, my body can't really take any more of that shit, and I don't want to go through that whole cycle again. It's exhausting. So it's just me and sobriety now.

 

[DexterMeth]

Wow, I'm in pretty much the same situation. I'm in a good environment living with my wonderful GF, I'm doing well in school ATM. In a lot of ways things are excellent, although I'm often anxious about the future (graduating in 3 quarters), which can sometimes trigger mild depression. However, alcohol has become my go-to drug to unwind with in the evening, in the absence of kratom. I can generally stay sober for most of the day but right around 7pm I feel that I should have something to cheer me up and remove my anxiety. In the last few weeks I've really been trying to rein in my drinking, since I can't hide how much I'm drinking and my GF's getting concerned. We've reached an agreement that she keeps me away from the alcohol and I'm allowed one night a week to indulge. I would like to think this will help.

The odd thing is that, unlike a lot of you, the more often I drink (in the evenings), the fewer side-effects I have. I don't get hangovers or morning-after anxiety any more, I don't black out, even after drinking a fifth of bourbon. I can sleep without waking up at 2am the way I used to. I know it's screwing me in the long run, but subjectively it feels so much less damaging than it did before I was a regular drinker. What can you guys suggest as a strategy for inserting some sober nights into my week?

Find adult things to do and accept you're growing up.

 

[LaserHosen]

The more I think about it the more I'm thinking I might just stop doing AA. I'm painfully shy about speaking in meetings and everyone says it gets easir but I've been going years and I haven't got the personality for sharing my serious intimate details. I'm not sure what's gonna take its place. Maybe just white-knuckle abstinence (once I get myself dried out this time).

 

[DexterMeth]

AA/NA is not for everyone. As long as you stay sober, I don't see the fault in not going.

 

[Vaya]

A concept I've always felt to be a really interesting take on "addiction," as it were, is that those of us who consider ourselves alcoholics or addicts have physical and mental allergy to these substances. We react to them in ways that most people simply don't.

I'll give some personal examples from my intrepid adventures with... I'll pick alcohol:
1. Before I stopped, I was the guy who would walk around a party with an entire fifth of liquor for myself, drinking it straight from the bottle as others sipped their beers and socialized. I kept drinking, wouldn't black out, wouldn't throw up, and wouldn't do anything stupid. But I always had to have more, and I invariably woke the next morning ready to drink again. I found that I didn't need a recovery period - drinking more was always an option to me regardless of the time of day, people I was with or situation I was in, and I could always handle it - This is an example of my physical allergy to alcohol.

2. I never really liked alcohol. I didn't like the potential consequences, yes, but even moreso, I simply didn't enjoy the feeling. Yet, determined to alter my state of mind, I continued to consume booze for many years. As I mentioned earlier, it was in every way my paying to feel like shit and being absolutely unable to stop. There's a saying in the 12-step program (sorry to bring the program into it, I'm just giving context) that goes "One is too many and a thousand is never enough." For me, this applied to all drugs, including alcohol: Put one drink in me, and I'm off to the races, living recklessly and in constant states of guilt, shame, selfishness and self-pity. But let me drink to extravagant excesses, and I'll spend the whole experience consumed with anxiety over where I'll get the next one - or, to be more precise, the next several. I never lived in the moment, never "experienced" alcohol as others did, because I had only one thought - WTF do I do when I run out? This is an example of my mental allergy to drugs and alcohol.

I still think this is a very thought-provoking lens through which one might evaluate their own tendencies towards use and abuse of psychoactives.

The difference between this and traditional allergies is this: One who is allergic to peanuts - suffers serious consequences after the consumption of peanut products and will always suffer these consequences - avoids peanut products. It's just a part of life.
Without support and a plan, I will imbibe alcohol and take any number of drugs - suffer serious (and twice fatal) consequences - and then take more. My addiction is "cunning, baffling and powerful" in the strongest sense of each word. Once I realized this (and actually accepted it), the necessity of abstaining from drugs and alcohol by any means necessary became self-evident, and it's really spurred growth in my personal journey to be free of the mental obscurity that accompanies my allergy.

FWIW.

~ vaya

 

[Vaya]

AA/NA is not for everyone. As long as you stay sober, I don't see the fault in not going.

I agree with this entirely. I suppose that if AA/NA were for everyone... well, half of the threads in TDS would never have been posted in the first place!

~ vaya

 

[blahman8000]

A concept I've always felt to be a really interesting take on "addiction," as it were, is that those of us who consider ourselves alcoholics or addicts have physical and mental allergy to these substances. We react to them in ways that most people simply don't.

I'll give some personal examples from my intrepid adventures with... I'll pick alcohol:
1. Before I stopped, I was the guy who would walk around a party with an entire fifth of liquor for myself, drinking it straight from the bottle as others sipped their beers and socialized. I kept drinking, wouldn't black out, wouldn't throw up, and wouldn't do anything stupid. But I always had to have more, and I invariably woke the next morning ready to drink again. I found that I didn't need a recovery period - drinking more was always an option to me regardless of the time of day, people I was with or situation I was in, and I could always handle it - This is an example of my physical allergy to alcohol.

2. I never really liked alcohol. I didn't like the potential consequences, yes, but even moreso, I simply didn't enjoy the feeling. Yet, determined to alter my state of mind, I continued to consume booze for many years. As I mentioned earlier, it was in every way my paying to feel like shit and being absolutely unable to stop. There's a saying in the 12-step program (sorry to bring the program into it, I'm just giving context) that goes "One is too many and a thousand is never enough." For me, this applied to all drugs, including alcohol: Put one drink in me, and I'm off to the races, living recklessly and in constant states of guilt, shame, selfishness and self-pity. But let me drink to extravagant excesses, and I'll spend the whole experience consumed with anxiety over where I'll get the next one - or, to be more precise, the next several. I never lived in the moment, never "experienced" alcohol as others did, because I had only one thought - WTF do I do when I run out? This is an example of my mental allergy to drugs and alcohol.

I still think this is a very thought-provoking lens through which one might evaluate their own tendencies towards use and abuse of psychoactives.

The difference between this and traditional allergies is this: One who is allergic to peanuts - suffers serious consequences after the consumption of peanut products and will always suffer these consequences - avoids peanut products. It's just a part of life.
Without support and a plan, I will imbibe alcohol and take any number of drugs - suffer serious (and twice fatal) consequences - and then take more. My addiction is "cunning, baffling and powerful" in the strongest sense of each word. Once I realized this (and actually accepted it), the necessity of abstaining from drugs and alcohol by any means necessary became self-evident, and it's really spurred growth in my personal journey to be free of the mental obscurity that accompanies my allergy.

FWIW.

~ vaya

I can definitely relate. Towards the end of my heavy drinking, I didn't even particularly enjoy getting drunk anymore. I just couldn't stop anyway. I convinced myself that I just hadn't had enough, and I'd continue drinking until passing out. I wasn't experiencing that joy and enthusiasm that everybody else seemed to still get from drinking. I only felt sedation and a craving for more and more. It was just this constant insatiable craving. I was never satisfied and it never did me any good.

Drugs and alcohol have no part in my life. I've never been able to moderate and enjoy them responsibly. With pills, it was the same as it was with alcohol. Instead of enjoying the present moment and how it made me feel, all I could think of was how I'd feel hours later unless I could get more. I was much more concerned about having more of the drug to consume, rather than whatever positive feeling I thought I was getting out of it (when I no longer was).

 

[Vaya]

^ Very insightful post, blah

...all I could think of was how I'd feel hours later unless I could get more.

haha wow, this comment struck a chord with me... I'm getting vivid flashbacks of doing some bags of dope and being hopelessly preoccupied with when I was in the coming-up phase, worrying over and estimating when the plateau would end, and dreading the come-down to reality, which is when I would inevitably leave the house, disrupting my experience completely, in order to get more to hoard.

I'm grateful to have had this sickening memory brought back to me; as I shared with Anomaly in his clean off dope thread, when we forget how bad it was, we have a much higher chance of forgetting just how downright awful that life was. Then comes bargaining with oneself, self-manipulation, twisted reality and, ultimately, relapse! This chain of events has happened to me at least four times since my first meeting eight years ago. Thanks for keeping it green for me.

~ vaya

 

[Beat Narrative]

i hve limited myy drinking to one bottle of wine per night, do people see this excessive, i don't as i am relatively sober and i don't get a hangover

my gf thinks myy reduction in consumption is not enough and i should only drink half that amount

i can just envision the tortue of that half bottle left over taunting me once my quota has been reached

i am sick of my drinking being used as a control mechanism over me, its hard to walk away from an 8 year relationship though

 

[blahman8000]

Got kinda wrapped up in looking further into the symptoms that I still have from my liver problems (alcoholic hepatitis, or perhaps worse). The ascites isn't going away, although the jaundice has gotten better.

The survival rate 5 years after ascites develops is only 30-40% and it is important that you and your doctor discuss a referral to a liver specialist and a liver transplant center.

(http://patients.gi.org/topics/ascites/)

That certainly isn't good news. I don't really know the true extent of how bad my liver is damaged, or if it's permanent, or even if I have cirrhosis. The doctors were never clear about it, and wouldn't perform a liver biopsy to find out. Meaning I don't even know if I'm going to recover, or even if I'm going to be alive a few years from now.

I'm going to see a doctor soon to follow up on everything, and I guess that's when I'll find out if it's still worth even trying to get better.

 

[Vaya]

i am sick of my drinking being used as a control mechanism over me, its hard to walk away from an 8 year relationship though

Two things.

1. She's prodding you because she honestly cares. It's really tough to watch someone you really love become preoccupied with and affected by substances. I, too, have felt that my (at the time) SO's worry over me was constricting. I didn't like it, I felt suffocated and as though my personal freedoms were being raided.

In retrospect, that was my disease speaking. I forgot that the allergy that so affects my body also affects my mind (did I mention I also did not get hangovers?). And, in defiance of her caring, I chose to keep doing what I wanted to do and lost the love of my life after three solid years of happiness. After she left me, I had no more "moderator," as such, and my use continued to escalate to the point where I had to give up. I'm sure you don't want to be there.

2. Does the fact that you're considering walking away from an eight-year relationship so that you can continue to drink a bottle of wine per day raise any red flags about the soundness of your thinking at the moment? What I mean is, do you believe that this is a rational thought? Meditate on that one, as it may reveal a great deal regarding how willing you are to accept the concern and suggestions of others/loved ones, as well as how much value you place on alcoholic consumption and how that level of value might, in fact, quite out of proportion.

Just some things to think about, BN.
& Respect,

~ vaya

 

[motherofearth]

1. Before I stopped, I was the guy who would walk around a party with an entire fifth of liquor for myself, drinking it straight from the bottle as others sipped their beers and socialized. I kept drinking, wouldn't black out, wouldn't throw up, and wouldn't do anything stupid. But I always had to have more, and I invariably woke the next morning ready to drink again. I found that I didn't need a recovery period - drinking more was always an option to me regardless of the time of day, people I was with or situation I was in, and I could always handle it - This is an example of my physical allergy to alcohol.

Mine too. Except, I had the tendency to lose coherence and cognition and make an ass of myself here and there. Also, my favorite drinking experiences by far were ones tarted off the ends of the previous nights. Waking up drunk was a feeling I enjoyed more than getting drunk the previous night. Emotion were more potent, sex was more meaningful, every sense heightened. Similarly, I know this to be not how average people process alcohol.

 

[Vaya]

Similarly, I know this to be not how average people process alcohol.

You are wise for having realized this!
It does an apt job at underscoring the probability that you are not the average person with respect to alcohol. That revelation alone is enough to propel a great number of people into serious efforts aimed at getting themselves straight.

 

[motherofearth]

Alcohol, more than anything has been a strange drug in terms of my reactions. I've only known one other person to have such severe hangovers. My ex girlfriend use to think it had to be my diabetes, and it could be, and she went as far as to bring me to her professors she worked with at Berkeley who specialized in drug and alcohol science.

With other drugs, I feel my levels of abuse and addiction were terrifying, but never abnormal in the way alcohol used to provide profoundly crippling hangovers. Maybe I have a low thresh hold, but after describing my hangovers to professionals, that doesn't seem the problem.

Anyway, I'm staying off the liquor assuredly, but I still do beer and weed. For now, they're keeping me a manageable distance from opiates, coke, and meth.

 

[DexterMeth]

Went to a dinner yesterday where I ended up drinking some wine. So a relapse after just abouta month dry, but no biggy. Alcohol is not my DOC, but I now treat it as so to play it safe. I ended up passing out early and getting overheated. Fuck alcohol.

 

[S.M.F.G]

Had one beer since i last posted in this thread, otherwise ive been good alchohol wise. Like Dex said above not my DOC either. I cant c the point in engaging in something that i know is just gonna make me feel sick.... Confident of staying dry untill my girlfriends birthday in about 6 months.Then its gona be the obligatory going out drink. Feeling better to be into excersise, It has shown me that ive given my body a flogging with substances and im not nearly as fit as i thought. Gotta go but there aint no doubt, That im hangin though...Over and out.

 

[n3ophy7e]

Alcohol, more than anything has been a strange drug in terms of my reactions. I've only known one other person to have such severe hangovers. My ex girlfriend use to think it had to be my diabetes, and it could be, and she went as far as to bring me to her professors she worked with at Berkeley who specialized in drug and alcohol science.

With other drugs, I feel my levels of abuse and addiction were terrifying, but never abnormal in the way alcohol used to provide profoundly crippling hangovers. Maybe I have a low thresh hold, but after describing my hangovers to professionals, that doesn't seem the problem.

Anyway, I'm staying off the liquor assuredly, but I still do beer and weed. For now, they're keeping me a manageable distance from opiates, coke, and meth.

Hi motherofearth, firstly welcome to Bluelight It definitely sounds like you've made a very good decision to listen to your body and steer clear of liquor. Do you find it easy to avoid all of those other substances as well?

Went to a dinner yesterday where I ended up drinking some wine. So a relapse after just abouta month dry, but no biggy. Alcohol is not my DOC, but I now treat it as so to play it safe. I ended up passing out early and getting overheated. Fuck alcohol.

Yeah man I think having the odd drink here or there, especially at a social event, is okay. But kinda pointless if it made you feel like shit afterwards, no?

Had one beer since i last posted in this thread, otherwise ive been good alchohol wise. Like Dex said above not my DOC either. I cant c the point in engaging in something that i know is just gonna make me feel sick.... Confident of staying dry untill my girlfriends birthday in about 6 months.Then its gona be the obligatory going out drink. Feeling better to be into excersise, It has shown me that ive given my body a flogging with substances and im not nearly as fit as i thought. Gotta go but there aint no doubt, That im hangin though...Over and out.

SMFG you're doing really well man, you've come a long way already, since a couple of weeks ago. Keep it up!

 

[RedLeader]

Confident of staying dry untill my girlfriends birthday in about 6 months.Then its gona be the obligatory going out drink.

It might seem obligatory now, but if you do complete those 6 months, you may feel differently when the time comes. Don't stress about when that switch will flip, though. It comes on gradual, like a sunrise over the open sea. Just stay sober and time will do its job.