Oh and any idea if the cotton ball thing would help the solution absorb quicker? I can't stand the taste of the sub in my mouth +sometimes it's very inconvenient to take them and have to deal with sounding like a drooling idiot
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Bupe Alcohol and Suboxone - Alcoholic Solutions for Higher BA With Sublingual Use
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Lorne???
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Dude, calm down. First off, the placebo thing was a joke. Notice that he said "convince me it is placebo" and then I say "well the placebo effect is quite powerful
". Notice the ?And clearly he isn't offended, like me, he is concerned with the truth. And his idea is the best; he'll try liquid alone, but if the alcohol SEEMS stronger, he'll continue with it, since it isn't hurting anything, and for all I know, maybe it is adding another small % on top of gain from simply using water. Even if it's not, I do believe alcohol could make it absorb even faster, I mean it's possible.
But the only one being rude here is you, Apperantly I offended you, and I am sorry, I am only here to help others, and to discuss/debate/research the topics I am passionate about.
As far as reporting me, I'm not sure what your reporting??? That you don't like my conclusions? That I'm a big meanie???
Anyway, if you disagree with something, being rude or just telling someone "nah, your wrong!" Is not at all an effective strategy. Try convincing me, it's not impossible.
In the mean time, I stand by my statement, you don't NEED alcohol for the BA increase, that is making your buprenorphine dose 50-70% stronger. Doesn't mean you might not be able to maximize it with alcohol, and do what makes you comfortable, but for practical purposes, just using water is a helluva lot easier than holding high proof liquor under your tongue(and if alcohol does anything, it would take a high proof, as something like 10% alcohol would be no better than water).
And dirtzed, thanks for trusting me, I'm glad some people are taking my posts into account, and giving me the benefit of the doubt,on things that ade harder to believe, some people respond negatively to any kind of change in they're beliefs/ what they think they know.
Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
Just making sure someone with incorrect info on posts isn't getting an incorrect msg out.
And I've never been against any "change". Not sure where u goin there. I never said anything about your liquid-not-ethanol raising BA argument. Which I doubt. I once accidentally grabbed the wrong bottle and added water instead of vodka. It made the peice move around worse and wether in my head or not I needed to re dose sooner that time. Sorry I missed that bit.
Again it works to throw a little vodka in with the sub. Its saved me $ big time and have extra sub. Never used listerene and wouldn't suggest it. Absolut vodka 40 proof. I've tried lots of brands that's the best for this. I usually like belvedere when I used to drink. But the absolut works best for this.
/
Maybe if I get brave I'll test your theory purposely... sry If I offended u. I thought u were trolling this thread first.
Anyone look at my other question at all? About the peice staying firmly attached to tongue etc...
And I've never been against any "change". Not sure where u goin there. I never said anything about your liquid-not-ethanol raising BA argument. Which I doubt. I once accidentally grabbed the wrong bottle and added water instead of vodka. It made the peice move around worse and wether in my head or not I needed to re dose sooner that time. Sorry I missed that bit.
. Did u see this?
Again it works to throw a little vodka in with the sub. Its saved me $ big time and have extra sub. Never used listerene and wouldn't suggest it. Absolut vodka 40 proof. I've tried lots of brands that's the best for this. I usually like belvedere when I used to drink. But the absolut works best for this.
/
Maybe if I get brave I'll test your theory purposely... sry If I offended u. I thought u were trolling this thread first.
Anyone look at my other question at all? About the peice staying firmly attached to tongue etc...
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Haha it makes sense. I read through the Reckitt - Benckiser packet thing in my doctors office and it just said "solution" and that's it, and then pointed out how a 6mg dose was estimated to be worth 8mg equivalent in solution, so it seems that whatever it's made up of, a solution will help the BA ahahaha
Crankinit
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How is dissolving suboxone in water then putting that solution under your tongue any different to putting the suboxone under your tongue where it dissolves in your saliva and creates a liquid suboxone solution? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Slum Survivor
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I thought it was about breaking thru mucus, which mesesses with absorbtion. So wouldn't it need to be something that helps with that idea?
Any ways I'll let u know when I can try substituting water for the vodka to compare. I'm not convinced it will be equal, but certainly don't hope against the theory. Im sure water would be more pleasant, or hope so. If it leaves you with lots of mucus in your saliva it wouldn't be. I hate that.
Alli know is I save subs/$ using vodka
Any ways I'll let u know when I can try substituting water for the vodka to compare. I'm not convinced it will be equal, but certainly don't hope against the theory. Im sure water would be more pleasant, or hope so. If it leaves you with lots of mucus in your saliva it wouldn't be. I hate that.
Alli know is I save subs/$ using vodka
Read through the Reckitt/Ben. Suboxone packet it says itself that a solution makes the dose about 1.5 times stronger than a traditional tablet.
Crankinit
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^Yes, but does it give any reason?
I remember when I started on suboxone my instructions were to hold the strips under my tongue for 5 minutes until they'd dissolved and then swallow. I suspect that if this is what the majority of people are actually doing, then they're swallowing far too early and probably not getting most of their dose, as it goes down their throat before it can become a suboxone/saliva solution and then absorb. Effectively mistaking the dissolving of the strip/pill for the absorption of the actual buprenorphine.
I've found that I need to go a minimum of 15 minutes without swallowing to get a decent effect, and up to 30 - 60 minutes often increases the effect even further.
I remember when I started on suboxone my instructions were to hold the strips under my tongue for 5 minutes until they'd dissolved and then swallow. I suspect that if this is what the majority of people are actually doing, then they're swallowing far too early and probably not getting most of their dose, as it goes down their throat before it can become a suboxone/saliva solution and then absorb. Effectively mistaking the dissolving of the strip/pill for the absorption of the actual buprenorphine.
I've found that I need to go a minimum of 15 minutes without swallowing to get a decent effect, and up to 30 - 60 minutes often increases the effect even further.
Oh my bad dude i thought you just wanted to know if it was legit or not.
Hahaha funny thing is I've been asking that question on this forum (regarding the alcohol but still) for like a month now with no response. There's some stuff in the beginning of the forum the point around but really doesn't seem to be a general consensus.
I thought it wasn't gonna work at all but out of all the potentiation/drug effect increasing methods on BL, this one has worked BY FAR the best, so again i am definitely very curious to know how/why it works as well as it does.
Lorne???
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It's really quite simple when you think about it. It has to do with speed of absorption. I wrote a nice long summary earlier, but again, IE closed for no good reason so I lost it! I'll try it again, but it won't be as good. Never!!!
I will say that studies have shown that, in liquid form, the amount of time held under the tongue is irrelevant. Whether you hold it for 2 minutes, or 5 minutes, the bioavailability is exactly the same. So beyond 1-2 minutes, time doesn't matter.
This shows that in liquid form, buprenorphine is absorbed rapidly and effectively.
But obviously, in tablet form it can't absorb immediately; instead it has to first dissolve. The problem is that it dissolves so slowly, that they're is no way to get optimal absorption. And as mentioned, most patients swallow after a few minutes, in which case, everything you swallow is obviously subject to first-pass metabolism, which yields a bioavailability of 10-15%.
But even if you don't swallow for an extended period, it is impossible to get the full BA, as by the time the tablet is (mostly) dissolved, all of the buprenorphine will be diluted in saliva. This makes rapid, effective uptake into the sublingual mucous membranes impossible.
Think about it like this: you dissolve 2mg buprenorphine in 0.5ml of water, and place under your tongue, and hold. It is then rapidly absorbed upon contact, and within 2 minutes you have absorbed the full amount(30-60%).
However if you we're then to dilute the solution in ~50ml of saliva, well, it then would be impossible to administer it directly and get the full amount. This is not to mention the fact that some bupe may very well be degraded by saliva. And certainly some will be absorbed buccally, which has much worse BA than sublingual(but still slightly better than oral).
My theory is that a lot of buprenorphine ends up being swallowed, or absorbed buccaly, when a high-dose tablet is administered. In any case, the traditional suboxone/subutex tablets lead to absorption that is slow, erratic, and incomplete. And only under ideal conditions, with good technique, will it come even close to a buprenorphine solution.
Ha, it looks like I did a pretty good job of explaining it again!!!
I will say that studies have shown that, in liquid form, the amount of time held under the tongue is irrelevant. Whether you hold it for 2 minutes, or 5 minutes, the bioavailability is exactly the same. So beyond 1-2 minutes, time doesn't matter.
This shows that in liquid form, buprenorphine is absorbed rapidly and effectively.
But obviously, in tablet form it can't absorb immediately; instead it has to first dissolve. The problem is that it dissolves so slowly, that they're is no way to get optimal absorption. And as mentioned, most patients swallow after a few minutes, in which case, everything you swallow is obviously subject to first-pass metabolism, which yields a bioavailability of 10-15%.
But even if you don't swallow for an extended period, it is impossible to get the full BA, as by the time the tablet is (mostly) dissolved, all of the buprenorphine will be diluted in saliva. This makes rapid, effective uptake into the sublingual mucous membranes impossible.
Think about it like this: you dissolve 2mg buprenorphine in 0.5ml of water, and place under your tongue, and hold. It is then rapidly absorbed upon contact, and within 2 minutes you have absorbed the full amount(30-60%).
However if you we're then to dilute the solution in ~50ml of saliva, well, it then would be impossible to administer it directly and get the full amount. This is not to mention the fact that some bupe may very well be degraded by saliva. And certainly some will be absorbed buccally, which has much worse BA than sublingual(but still slightly better than oral).
My theory is that a lot of buprenorphine ends up being swallowed, or absorbed buccaly, when a high-dose tablet is administered. In any case, the traditional suboxone/subutex tablets lead to absorption that is slow, erratic, and incomplete. And only under ideal conditions, with good technique, will it come even close to a buprenorphine solution.
Ha, it looks like I did a pretty good job of explaining it again!!!
Crankinit
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Interesting.
I'm going to play around with this. I've been meaning to try the alcohol one, but I used up all the vodka I bought for drug experiments trying to make etizolam not suck. I'll give this a shot in the meantime. I have a bunch of oral syringes in my desk, so I figure just throw the strip in the barrrel, suck some water up, shake it around till it dissolves then squirt under the tongue?
I love playing with drugs :D
I'm going to play around with this. I've been meaning to try the alcohol one, but I used up all the vodka I bought for drug experiments trying to make etizolam not suck. I'll give this a shot in the meantime. I have a bunch of oral syringes in my desk, so I figure just throw the strip in the barrrel, suck some water up, shake it around till it dissolves then squirt under the tongue?
I love playing with drugs :D
I just split my 8mg tex tab in half and crush it in a shot glass and then add about ~20 drops of original Listerine (which is about a mL of 26.9% alcohol but apparently that doesn't matter now according to Lorne haha) stir it up and let it sit for a minute to let it completely dissolve, then drop a dense, pea-sized piece of cotton in there and stick that under my tongue. I typically do 4mg at a time just so i don't have too much solution to hold under my tongue but you could put the whole 8 tab in there.
This works veryyyyyyy well for me and allows me to take my dose in 5 min as opposed to 15 with the tablets (not to mention that i can't taste that SHIT from the tablets when i add the mouthwash, a definite plus).
Good luck
Crankinit
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Well that was interesting. I tore up 6mg of a strip into chunks, put them in an oral syringe, sucked up 3ml of room temp water, shook it periodically for 5 minutes until most of it had dissolved, then squirted it under my tongue.
The speed at which it started kicking in amazed me - I noted the time as 9:02 when I squirted the solution under my tongue, and looked back down once I started to feel it coming on (crawling up the back of the legs, as Burroughs put it) to notice it was 9:03. Less than 2 minutes had passed. Another minute or two later I felt a surge of itching, like I used to get when codeine was kicking in, or a tame version of the IV morphine rush. I've never itched from suboxone in my life, so this surprised me. It was definitely coming on a lot faster, and I'm glad I didn't do my usual morning dose of 16mg or the itching might have been uncomfortable. I did my best to swish the solution around while keeping it under my tongue - I noticed a lot less saliva buildup this way. After about 15 minutes, I felt it had mostly absorbed, and could taste the lack of bitterness, though I kept it in for 40 because I was busy typing and didn't want to get up to the kitchen to wash it down.
As for the BA - it's hard to say. My usual dose is, as I've said, 16mg, and my dosing has been a bit erratic the last 48 hours, so I can't do a straight comparison, but I'm feeling unusually strong opiate sensations compared to what I'd expect if I'd just thrown 6mg under my tongue. Or any dose under my tongue. Still getting waves of prickling and itching, which is bizarre.
I'll try higher doses later tonight, and tomorrow, ramp up to my normal dose and see how it compares. It's been a few hours now and I actually feel kinda buzzed, especially compared to how I'd normally feel with less than half my normal dose. Gonna try it out with benzos too, I usually put them in my mouth at the same time, and it results in a lot of saliva buildup - which the liquid doesn't seem to do at all.
The speed at which it started kicking in amazed me - I noted the time as 9:02 when I squirted the solution under my tongue, and looked back down once I started to feel it coming on (crawling up the back of the legs, as Burroughs put it) to notice it was 9:03. Less than 2 minutes had passed. Another minute or two later I felt a surge of itching, like I used to get when codeine was kicking in, or a tame version of the IV morphine rush. I've never itched from suboxone in my life, so this surprised me. It was definitely coming on a lot faster, and I'm glad I didn't do my usual morning dose of 16mg or the itching might have been uncomfortable. I did my best to swish the solution around while keeping it under my tongue - I noticed a lot less saliva buildup this way. After about 15 minutes, I felt it had mostly absorbed, and could taste the lack of bitterness, though I kept it in for 40 because I was busy typing and didn't want to get up to the kitchen to wash it down.
As for the BA - it's hard to say. My usual dose is, as I've said, 16mg, and my dosing has been a bit erratic the last 48 hours, so I can't do a straight comparison, but I'm feeling unusually strong opiate sensations compared to what I'd expect if I'd just thrown 6mg under my tongue. Or any dose under my tongue. Still getting waves of prickling and itching, which is bizarre.
I'll try higher doses later tonight, and tomorrow, ramp up to my normal dose and see how it compares. It's been a few hours now and I actually feel kinda buzzed, especially compared to how I'd normally feel with less than half my normal dose. Gonna try it out with benzos too, I usually put them in my mouth at the same time, and it results in a lot of saliva buildup - which the liquid doesn't seem to do at all.
Using alcohol is actually even better than using straight water since the alcohol does help in removing mucas and whatever build up is under your tounge making the veins under there absorb more bupe but you don't really need to have the bupe dissolved in alcohol simply swishing the alcohol around in your mouth until it feels like you are "burning" your tounge spit it out then just add the water and bupe mix under your tounge that works good.
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Crankinit
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Do you have any links to these studies? Not doubting you, just not in the mood to brows through pubmed right now.
Lorne???
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^^^ After I do my dose, I'll try to post some of the studies. I'll have to dig em up, though, as I don't believe I''ve saved any of them. I've been meaning to post Some of them anyway.
That actually makes sense. Alcohol could reduce the amount of saliva, as well. But as far as the BA increase is concerned, I think water is just fine, I mean it is easier for the average person to make an aqueous solution and place that under they're tongue, as opposed to using damn vodka.
That actually makes sense. Alcohol could reduce the amount of saliva, as well. But as far as the BA increase is concerned, I think water is just fine, I mean it is easier for the average person to make an aqueous solution and place that under they're tongue, as opposed to using damn vodka.
Slum Survivor
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Its pretty easy to rinse, place sub, toss in a lil vodka and yeah it fights back the drip and saliva... i ll go find the paper that listed the ba of many methods I had read. I think the avg was 49% with ethanol solution. And 31 with sub tab straight subL.
Dr j has info somewhere to...
Glad they approved strips/tabs over the ethanol solution. Otherwise u may have needed to get your doses at a clinic in stead of an easy dr visit and all take home.
Btw burn is very liqour choice specific. Absolut works best for it ime. Tried many. Belvedere, grey goose , ciroc, patron, good whisky's (and whiskey's). Absolut had least burn and taste. Ciroc is awful, leaves nasty taste. And normally when I used to drink belvedere was far above the rest. But the burn lasts maybe 2minutes tops. Not bad or hard. I suggest folks try this
and yeah it fights back the drip and saliva... i ll go find the paper that listed the ba of many methods I had read. I think the avg was 49% with ethanol solution. And 31 with sub tab straight subL.Dr j has info somewhere to...
Glad they approved strips/tabs over the ethanol solution. Otherwise u may have needed to get your doses at a clinic in stead of an easy dr visit and all take home.
Btw burn is very liqour choice specific. Absolut works best for it ime. Tried many. Belvedere, grey goose , ciroc, patron, good whisky's (and whiskey's). Absolut had least burn and taste. Ciroc is awful, leaves nasty taste. And normally when I used to drink belvedere was far above the rest. But the burn lasts maybe 2minutes tops. Not bad or hard. I suggest folks try this
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Slum Survivor
Bluelighter
Dirzted: I've tried to answer u before. Got cluttered up and over looked.
Crankinit: u would have noticed more if trying to lower dose, like see if u can take less w/o w/ds. Or if u were on a sub ~2mg dose like .5 feels like 1 mg. Etc. Btw I at least hold my sub for 45mins... hell sometimes there's even traces of it after that long still on my tongue. I get a slow onset opioid energy/euphoria at my low dose. 1mg morning. .5mg in evening takes about an hour to peak. Nothing amazing tho. 2-3 mg etiz helps make it more intense tho.
Plus it may take a couple days to notice a difference in some cases, due to the long half-life.
Sry for dbl posting.my tablet is at 3% need to charge.
Crankinit: u would have noticed more if trying to lower dose, like see if u can take less w/o w/ds. Or if u were on a sub ~2mg dose like .5 feels like 1 mg. Etc. Btw I at least hold my sub for 45mins... hell sometimes there's even traces of it after that long still on my tongue. I get a slow onset opioid energy/euphoria at my low dose. 1mg morning. .5mg in evening takes about an hour to peak. Nothing amazing tho. 2-3 mg etiz helps make it more intense tho.
Plus it may take a couple days to notice a difference in some cases, due to the long half-life.
Sry for dbl posting.my tablet is at 3% need to charge.
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Lorne???
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^^^ Ok, you can keep using alcohol if you want, it certainly doesn't hurt anything.
But all of you holding the solution under your tongue for 30-45 minutes, IT IS COMPLETELY UNNECCESARY. Multiple studies have shown that the amount of time that you hold the solution under your tongue is irrelevant; within a few minutes, you've already achieved the full BA. I mean I can understand holding it for several minutes to be safe, but holding it for 30 minutes or more defeats the whole purpose of even using a liquid solution.
As I said, the main reason that a buprenorphine solution(alcohol or not) is so much better than the high dose tablet is the speed of absorption.
I mean, y'all can obviously do what you want, but I promise 5 minutes is plenty.
Also, if your using less than mg, then 0.5ml water is fine. The less water/liquid the better.
But all of you holding the solution under your tongue for 30-45 minutes, IT IS COMPLETELY UNNECCESARY. Multiple studies have shown that the amount of time that you hold the solution under your tongue is irrelevant; within a few minutes, you've already achieved the full BA. I mean I can understand holding it for several minutes to be safe, but holding it for 30 minutes or more defeats the whole purpose of even using a liquid solution.
As I said, the main reason that a buprenorphine solution(alcohol or not) is so much better than the high dose tablet is the speed of absorption.
I mean, y'all can obviously do what you want, but I promise 5 minutes is plenty.
Also, if your using less than mg, then 0.5ml water is fine. The less water/liquid the better.