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Abortion: For and Against

^ Ha haha ah, Bill Hicks, great! Although I don't know if I want People Who Hate People deciding abortion policy... :D
 
Okay, well oops, I noticed I had it wrong when I said sperm aren't alive - they are, they're just not human. I think I also had it wrong when I said the issue is what constitutes a life - the issue is (in my mind at least) what constitutes a human life. So, uhh...

oops :D


Here is Dr Myers (a biologist at U of Minnesota) on why life doesn't begin at conception:

Life does not begin at conception. It's an utterly nonsensical position to take. There is never a "dead" phase -- life is continuous. Sperm are alive, eggs are alive; you could even make the argument that since two cells (gametes) enter, but only one cell (a zygote) leaves, fertilization ends a life. Not that I would make that particular claim myself, but it's definitely true that life is more complicated than the simplistic ideologues of the anti-choice movement would make it.
 
Psychedelic Gleam said:
I think it comes down to this for me.

The baby is not an autonomous conscious individual thus in my mind it is less of a human being and I could care less if they kill it. Just because it is a potential fully fledged human being does not give it special privileges in my mind. And, anything that relates to internal, personal, bodily issues is purely the territory of the owner of that body as far as I am concerned.

It comes down to the fact that in my mind I view some life as more valuable than others.

Abortion isn't a new issue, women have known for ages and ages how to induce abortions. Christians utilizing the modern scientific knowledge of fetal development just shifted it from a personal issue to a social issue which is yet another example of the disempowerment of women.
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I agree.

I don't mean to sound cold, like "yippee, abortions are awesome!"...no.. and im not debating that a fetus isn't alive, it obviously is alive in the very basic sense of the word, but so is a plant, like lettuce, which we kill and eat all the time. Does it feel pain? I don't know. I am a firm believer in getting an abortion done AS SOON AS POSSIBLE if you are going to do it, however, because to wait 7 monthes and rip a fetus\baby out limb by limb crosses to a whole different level in my book... I guess I am refering to "regular" abortions in this post.

The key words here in my opinion are POTENTIAL HUMAN. It could miscarry, it could turn out deformed and unable to live, etc.... so why should an actual full-fledged human's rights be comprimised for the rights of a POSSIBILITY?

I really don't mean to sound like an uncaring person. I don't think abortions are good, its just the priniciple of the situation, that if a woman wants to get one, its ridiculous in my mind that she might not be able to just because of a fetus.

My opinion, I will admit, is slightly bias because I really don't care much for babies, and, although I am not very political, I tend to be on the liberal side of social issues such as this. But I do think Psych. Glem had an exellent point.
 
Pro-Choice. I think we woman should have the right to decide whether we want to carry a child or not. Baby murder blah blah blah...whatever. C:

Our bodies, our choice.

Rape victims especially. I hate how people try to justify even that...saying oh well they can live with it or put the child up for adoption. They really must not know what a woman goes through during and after pregnancy. It's more than just have a kid and all being well with the world.

And really, this whole abortion 'issue' is being exaggerated by religious groups. To get rid of it would just seem to be a big slap in the face...I mean, to me it seems like its the rights of a woman here that is being questioned, not the idea of 'murdering a baby'.
 
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But it is not a baby. It is a fetus. An unwanted one at that, and will be treated accordingly.
Would you rather the fetus be aborted early in pregnancy when it is not conscious, or be treated like shit their whole life because it reminds the mother of a horrible occurance?
The womans feelings are not not 'mere,' do you think potential life means more than an innocent womans traumatic experience with being RAPED?
Clearly you have no fucking idea what being raped is like. Having someone describe them as 'mere feelings' is a huge fucking insult, and certainly does override the existence of a bunch of cells.
 
TheParty said:
I am pro-life because i think the baby has a right to live (even if the woman was raped) because the baby's life is MORE important than the womans mere feelings...
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And the issue isn't whether the woman has a legal right to kill her baby (which she doesn't) but what constitutes a baby. Like Claire said, a fetus is not a baby. Nobody is sanctioning baby killing - that's a total red herring.
 
life begins at conception?
No.
life begins 3.5 billion years ago. The real crux of the debate is when sentience begins...and i guess what type of sentience we'd need to anchor claims to ethical rights.

ebola
 
L O V E L I F E said:
If so many of you people are truly SOOOOOOOO concerned with the impending catastrophe of overpopulation, and that EVEN ONE ADDITIONAL PERSON is such a huge move towards that impending doom . . . then why don't ANY of you take one for the team and kill yourself?

I'm not kidding.

I'm legitimately curious.
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LoveLive, if one is not ready to bring up a child, and that child is starving from all areas, and phychologically grows up to struggle and in pain from being neglected and unloved and in pain, and ends up with depression and commits suicide-whould that make you feel happy to know that the person did not choose abortion?
People make mistakes and when they find out, they go into terror for they do not feel responsible enough to bring on a child into this world.
Just sticking to that belief or see it as killing/abortion, then is it not a slow killing if it is unwanted, and responsible for bringing it to life?
 
LivingInTheMoment said:

LoveLive, if one is not ready to bring up a child, and that child is starving from all areas, and phychologically grows up to struggle and in pain from being neglected and unloved and in pain, and ends up with depression and commits suicide-whould that make you feel happy to know that the person did not choose abortion?

People make mistakes and when they find out, they go into terror for they do not feel responsible enough to bring on a child into this world.

Just sticking to that belief or see it as killing/abortion, then is it not a slow killing if it is unwanted, and responsible for bringing it to life?
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Adoption is an option.

And even if it wasn't, if I was in the metaphorical shoes of a, say, second trimester fetus/potential baby, with a heart and a mind, given the choice, I would rather see how my life goes and THEN be allowed the option of killing myself if I thought that life was worse than non-life.

Should I be allowed to kill extremely depressed human beings?
 
^^ Adoption is a tricky one and can more often than not cause deep psychological scars for both mother and child...

Anyway, for myself... I am pro choice, yet I don't think I could have an abortion. I don't think it's a great idea, but if I truly couldn't take care of my kid, I would put it up for adoption. I don't know. I think that a human life is worth more than anything but at the same time worth nothing at all. There's no 'right' to live; that's just a human concept.
 
How can it be a question of morality when death is merely a natural part of life and we all die, with or without anothers aid? The "morality", it seems, has either already been set for us or is a moot point. If I kill another person and I don't feel guilty than I am not guilty. What should it matter to all others? I only ask anothers morality not be pushed upon mine.
 
^^^^^^^^^^

Should those who rape serially and don't feel a shred a guilt about it not be punished?

This debate should, imo, NOT be about "pushing morality on others" but rather:

"WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE AS TO WHEN A FETUS BEGINS TO HAVE RIGHTS?"

And, that's clearly debatable, imo.
 
L O V E L I F E said:
Adoption is an option.

And even if it wasn't, if I was in the metaphorical shoes of a, say, second trimester fetus/potential baby, with a heart and a mind, given the choice, I would rather see how my life goes and THEN be allowed the option of killing myself if I thought that life was worse than non-life.

Should I be allowed to kill extremely depressed human beings?
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LoveLife, it is not as easy as you think things are, by just thoughts alone!
Judge it or not, there is a strong bond created between the fetus and the mother who carries it, and if she was to go through to full term, while she feels incapable to carry on the full responsibility out of a mistake, there are hormones that bond the person and emotional connection and a powerful bond created between them by the time of full term. The mother's filter is is very strong. To come to full tern, it is very difficult to give it up for adoption and know her child exists out there when she can't have it. One needs to have choices prior to that bond created, and prior to the fetus becoming a more complex and complete human being. You guys can talk...objectively or morally, but take over that position and it becomes different.
 
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moonyham said:
Why should talking about destroying human life make me(or anyone actually) uncomfortable? Cause it makes YOU uncomfortable? So i guess if leather chairs make you uncomfortable they should make me uncomfortable yeah? 8)
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Agreed.

This doesn't make me uncomfortable either.

To me it doesn't matter if a fetus is a life or not. My body, my choice. They can make it illegal all they want. It's still my body and my choice. No matter what.

No, because rape is harming a fully conscious human being, not a potential life.
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Thank you. :D Comparing abortion to rape doesn't make sense to me. It's not that one is more evil than the other or anything (obviously thats a matter of opinion) but it's like comparing apples and oranges. A rape victim doesn't need to be living inside someone else's body (who may or may not want them there) in order not to be raped. It's a completely different situation.

I am pro-life because i think the baby has a right to live (even if the woman was raped) because the baby's life is MORE important than the womans mere feelings...
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Well thank God everyone doesn't feel that way.

How can it be a question of morality when death is merely a natural part of life and we all die, with or without anothers aid? The "morality", it seems, has either already been set for us or is a moot point. If I kill another person and I don't feel guilty than I am not guilty. What should it matter to all others? I only ask anothers morality not be pushed upon mine.
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Thank you. You are a genius and I love you. :D

Should those who rape serially and don't feel a shred a guilt about it not be punished?
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I don'tbelieve in "punishment", myself, but I don't think that was what he was saying. He was saying that there is no inherent right or wrong and that morality is subjective. I agree with this.

LoveLife, it is not as easy as you think things are, by just thoughts alone!
Judge it or not, there is a strong bond created between the fetus and the mother who carries it, and if she was to go through to full term, while she feels incapable to carry on the full responsibility out of a mistake, there are hormones that bond the person and emotional connection and a powerful bond created between them by the time of full term. The mother's filter is is very strong. To come to full tern, it is very difficult to give it up for adoption and know her child exists out there when she can't have it. One needs to have choices prior to that bond created, and prior to the fetus becoming a more complex and complete human being. You guys can talk...objectively or morally, but take over that position and it becomes different.
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Thank you as well!

I don't like when people suggest that any unwanted pregnancies should be dealt with by adoption. No. It's just not going to happen, at least not for me. I would never give a baby up for adoption. Before I got pregnant, this is what I always said I would do. BUT-
As soon as I felt what it was like to BE pregnant.. I knew that if I went through with the pregnancy I would never, ever be able to give that child away after delivering it. I just knew. I didn't want to be the women who promises some poor sterile couple her baby and then leaves them heartbroken when she changes her mind after she holds her baby. And I knew that's what would happen.

For me it's either become a mother or have an abortion.
 
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