Opioids 7oh and suboxone

[Kurt Cobain]

Well that's fuckin' scary. Thanks for all the information. Wish I would have had it before I got strung out on obnoxious amounts of powder. It was a tough journey going from 800mg/day to my current 60mg at first. If it weren't for plain leaf and MIT giving it some legs, I don't think I would have gotten out without bupe. The acutes at those high doses were gnarly, shockingly so.


This was my experience as well. Eventually I was just having chronic anxiety and panic. It was not possible to continue on that way.

Ya same was constantly on the edge, very anxious, thinking the absolute worst shit. Subs didn't even help it which I was suprised it gave me zero withdraw relief very fucking weird shit but it's not regulated so it could be fucking anything were taking. 7oh is expensive to manufacture but I was finding tabs and powder dirt fucking cheap and so it's plausible that we've been getting something other than 7oh and it's some other RC opioid

 

[drewbocop]

What type of doses/timing of regular mit/leaf did you use to taper down to 60mg? How long did it take?

I immediately slashed from 600-800 to 255mg dosing approximately at 6am, 11am, 4pm, and 9pm. Each dose was measured on a milligram scale and split equally into gel caps which I used sublingually before swallowing. Roughly 30 minutes to an hour after each dose, I would take 200mg of 63% MIT/92% total alkaloids (little to no 7oh in it), along with about 9 grams of Green Maeng Da. I already have an extremely high plain leaf tolerance for many years. It really does stretch it out a LOT. With just the half-life of 7oh on its own, I wouldn't have made it as cutting that extreme still gave me horrific anxiety and insomnia. I practically had a mental breakdown from the insomnia compounding everything, so I cannot even fucking imagine CTing from 700mg like Angel. That is insane. After 3 days of that, I stabilized quite well and stayed there for a couple more days before I began the taper. After 255, I went down to 220 split 4 ways, 200, 180, 160, 140, etc. I never stayed at a dose for longer than 3 days. I'm still at 60mg right now, but tomorrow I'm going to try 40 and see what happens. It's pretty damn easy now with the plain leaf. Cutting back on extracts now too, but I do feel withdrawal creep in pretty quickly. I find myself having to dose plain leaf at around 2-3 in the morning some (most) nights.

The garbage really set me back in my perceived recovery. Definitely made me feel like a junkie again, considering I had 10 years straight of JUST plain leaf. Screwed the pooch on that one. However, I am kind of grateful because it opened my eyes to just how much kratom and its action on serotonin has changed me and it's not necessarily positive in most ways. I am 38 years old soon and I plan to slow taper 1 gram a week until I'm off kratom completely. I'm ready to be clean for real, and I want to make sure I can do that for my mother before she passes. She is almost 70 now and has kidney disease and is starting to show early dementia/Alzheimer's symptoms as it has ravaged almost everyone on that side of the family. No elderly woman should have to see her grown ass son still breaking down and crying because of drug addiction for the millionth time.

Other antihistamines such as diphenhydramine and doxylamine makes RLS worse during opioid WD for a lot of people, so it stands to reason that hydroxyzine can as well. Although hydroxyzine is pretty effective at handling anxiety. It won't stop a panic attack but it can really help out background anxiety and general anxiety. I carry one in my pocket when I go on walks so I can pop it if I find that my mind is working itself into an anxious feedback loop. Its pretty good at slowing that down.

Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. Diphenhydramine ABSOLUTELY causes horrible RLS both in and out of withdrawal for me, but doxylamine doesn't as far as I can tell. Hydroxyzine definitely does, as well. Made both of those mistakes plenty of times in the past.

 

[SuperPsych]

That’s good to know how you take them like that when you go on walks and helps with anxiety and thought loops. I’m prescribed hydroxyzine as one of my meds for PTSD but always forget to take it unless I’m running out of other meds or withdrawal … lol maybe I should actually take it like how you’re saying.

Yea I guess it’s kind of hard to tell when having crazy RLS or ‘restless whole body’ what’s making it better or worse sometimes.

But yea thanks for giving me that idea to go for a walk and keep a Hydroxyzine on me, sounded kinda relaxing the way you wrote it

I definitely recommend keeping a hydroxyzine or two on you when you're out of the house. Hydroxyzine is rather safe. I'm prescribed hydroxyzine on a "as needed" basis for anxiety. If I have bad general anxiety or my mind is just stuck in an anxious spot I'll usually take one and if it doesn't help as much as I had hoped then I'll take another. I'm prescribed 50mg pills so 2 would be 100mg total. It's not as effective as benzodiazepines, but I have stopped anxiety from progressing into an anxiety attack successfully by taking hydroxyzine the moment I recognize that I'm heading towards an attack. I have taken hydroxyzine during anxiety attacks and it rarely stops them, but it usually helps lower the severity of them. It's definitely worth a shot, especially if you're prescribed them. I also find that hydroxyzine doesn't really make me groggy like diphenydramine or doxylamine. I could take it while at work and not feel slowed down at all

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I immediately slashed from 600-800 to 255mg dosing approximately at 6am, 11am, 4pm, and 9pm. Each dose was measured on a milligram scale and split equally into gel caps which I used sublingually before swallowing. Roughly 30 minutes to an hour after each dose, I would take 200mg of 63% MIT/92% total alkaloids (little to no 7oh in it), along with about 9 grams of Green Maeng Da. I already have an extremely high plain leaf tolerance for many years. It really does stretch it out a LOT. With just the half-life of 7oh on its own, I wouldn't have made it as cutting that extreme still gave me horrific anxiety and insomnia. I practically had a mental breakdown from the insomnia compounding everything, so I cannot even fucking imagine CTing from 700mg like Angel. That is insane. After 3 days of that, I stabilized quite well and stayed there for a couple more days before I began the taper. After 255, I went down to 220 split 4 ways, 200, 180, 160, 140, etc. I never stayed at a dose for longer than 3 days. I'm still at 60mg right now, but tomorrow I'm going to try 40 and see what happens. It's pretty damn easy now with the plain leaf. Cutting back on extracts now too, but I do feel withdrawal creep in pretty quickly. I find myself having to dose plain leaf at around 2-3 in the morning some (most) nights.

The garbage really set me back in my perceived recovery. Definitely made me feel like a junkie again, considering I had 10 years straight of JUST plain leaf. Screwed the pooch on that one. However, I am kind of grateful because it opened my eyes to just how much kratom and its action on serotonin has changed me and it's not necessarily positive in most ways. I am 38 years old soon and I plan to slow taper 1 gram a week until I'm off kratom completely. I'm ready to be clean for real, and I want to make sure I can do that for my mother before she passes. She is almost 70 now and has kidney disease and is starting to show early dementia/Alzheimer's symptoms as it has ravaged almost everyone on that side of the family. No elderly woman should have to see her grown ass son still breaking down and crying because of drug addiction for the millionth time.


Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. Diphenhydramine ABSOLUTELY causes horrible RLS both in and out of withdrawal for me, but doxylamine doesn't as far as I can tell. Hydroxyzine definitely does, as well. Made both of those mistakes plenty of times in the past.

Cold turkey off a gram a day sucks but it's more doable than most opiate withdraw, just sucks how quick it's half life is and how fast your body gets dependant on it. Even only doing 10-20mg per day mixed in with some mit extracts for TWO days was enough to give me withdrawals when I first started taking 7

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

Cold turkey off a gram a day sucks but it's more doable than most opiate withdraw, just sucks how quick it's half life is and how fast your body gets dependant on it. Even only doing 10-20mg per day mixed in with some mit extracts for TWO days was enough to give me withdrawals when I first started taking 7

Hey this has nothing to do with 7 but if that’s your cat in the picture, he’s a cutie lol. This is my boy Baby

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Hey this has nothing to do with 7 but if that’s your cat in the picture, he’s a cutie lol. This is my boy Baby

He's a handsome lad himself, looks almost wolf like to me lol but ya that's my man Alfredo fetruchini mussolini

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

He's a handsome lad himself, looks almost wolf like to me lol but ya that's my man Alfredo fetruchini mussolini

Haha I love that name, he probably got some cool nicknames with that name. I give Baby all kinds of crazy nicknames lol.

Yea Baby is a wild man technically as he was found out in the wilderness in upstate NY when he was just a couple months old. He was worse for wear and the doctors weren’t even sure he was going to make it, but he had a turn around after a couple months and survived. He’s my little survivor man

Anyways my bad I won’t keep rambling about cats in the 7 thread hehe.
Sending Mr. Alfredo a paw bump

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Haha I love that name, he probably got some cool nicknames with that name. I give Baby all kinds of crazy nicknames lol.

Yea Baby is a wild man technically as he was found out in the wilderness in upstate NY when he was just a couple months old. He was worse for wear and the doctors weren’t even sure he was going to make it, but he had a turn around after a couple months and survived. He’s my little survivor man

Anyways my bad I won’t keep rambling about cats in the 7 thread hehe.
Sending Mr. Alfredo a paw bump

That's funny, I'm very close to NY myself over in PA and I found my boy abandoned in the middle of a winter storm, severe storm. My neighbors dumped him and one night he just broke into my house and he never left lol he was only a couple months old himself and poor guy must've been starving bc I made some chicken Alfredo casserole and we had nothing else to give him but he scarffed a bigger plate than I did

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Haha I love that name, he probably got some cool nicknames with that name. I give Baby all kinds of crazy nicknames lol.

Yea Baby is a wild man technically as he was found out in the wilderness in upstate NY when he was just a couple months old. He was worse for wear and the doctors weren’t even sure he was going to make it, but he had a turn around after a couple months and survived. He’s my little survivor man

Anyways my bad I won’t keep rambling about cats in the 7 thread hehe.
Sending Mr. Alfredo a paw bump

Whats your boys name? Baby?

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

Whats your boys name? Baby?

Yea his name is Baby. It just kind of happened lol. Every time I was trying to get him to come to me or just as I was doing stuff with him … I kept saying “Come here Baby, good job Baby” and he just started answering to it like it was his name.

That's funny, I'm very close to NY myself over in PA and I found my boy abandoned in the middle of a winter storm, severe storm. My neighbors dumped him and one night he just broke into my house and he never left lol he was only a couple months old himself and poor guy must've been starving bc I made some chicken Alfredo casserole and we had nothing else to give him but he scarffed a bigger plate than I did

That’s awesome how you took him in & made him some Alfredo (lol love that and the name). It was meant to be

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Whats your boys name? Baby?

Pasta man, toe daddy bc he loves sniffing my dirty ass feet,

Yea his name is Baby. It just kind of happened lol. Every time I was trying to get him to come to me or just as I was doing stuff with him … I kept saying “Come here Baby, good job Baby” and he just started answering to it like it was his name.

That’s awesome how you took him in & made him some Alfredo (lol love that and the name). It was meant to be

Couldnt live with myself knowing I could've helped but didn't. My landlord wasn't happy when she eventually found out but he was allowed to stay for only am extra $60 a month hah small price to pay for my little man though

 

[drewbocop]

Cold turkey off a gram a day sucks but it's more doable than most opiate withdraw, just sucks how quick it's half life is and how fast your body gets dependant on it. Even only doing 10-20mg per day mixed in with some mit extracts for TWO days was enough to give me withdrawals when I first started taking 7

If you can go 72+ hours anyway. My life doesn't really allow for that. I do see many people with asinine habits of 7oh getting clear within 5 days. That's a relief, anyway.

 

[Exs95]

so whats the general consensus here

I want to quit this week

will 8mg of suboxone allow me to quit or no?

I have no way of getting more of it.

 

[mobilelifestyle]

So as the title suggests I had a question about 7oh and suboxone. My question is why doesn't suboxone block 7oh? Just to be clear I'm not a suboxone maintenance patient but I have bounced between the two a fair bit of times at this point and even with larger doses of subs over the course of say a week maybe two I've noticed that suboxone doesn't really block the 7oh at all and I'm just curious as to why? Perhaps bevause they're both partial agonist or maybe something else. I get all the full effects of the 7oh meanwhile at the same dose of subs over that time frame I could do 150mg of real roxycontin and not feel fuck all aside from a slight and I mean slight shift in vision IE things seem slightly brighter but duller at the same time, has anybody else noticed this with these two substances. P. S. For reference the 7oh I'm taking is roughly 97% pure 7oh powder so I don't think the argument of oh it's just the other alkaloids from kratom being left in the mix is the answer here. Cheers and open to any feed back or first hand experiences

I started taking suboxone about 4 days ago to quit 7oh, same stuff 97-99% pure powder (about a gram per day for over 18 months the. I took suboxone briefly to kick oc years ago, and it worked. But this time around, sub hasn't touched this 7oh, like AT ALL!
I scheduled another appt. With my doctor for today, to see if he has any input/recommendations.
Feel free to stay in touch, compare notes, find a solution.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I started taking suboxone about 4 days ago to quit 7oh, same stuff 97-99% pure powder (about a gram per day for over 18 months the. I took suboxone briefly to kick oc years ago, and it worked. But this time around, sub hasn't touched this 7oh, like AT ALL!
I scheduled another appt. With my doctor for today, to see if he has any input/recommendations.
Feel free to stay in touch, compare notes, find a solution.

Good luck, I did massive doses of subs to help and it did nothing. I think 7oh binds more tightly to the receptors, he's even moreso than bupe. I'm afraid the best course of action other than a taper for 7 which is damn near impossible bc the short half life and unique anxiety when it wears off at least ime. Gabapentin or Lyrica is your friend and tbh I find gabapentin better for withdrawals than Lyrica even though it's stronger. Clonodine would help as well. I believe 7oh has multiple mechanisms of action as well but no research to back that claim up, just a hunch

 

[Kurt Cobain]

The stuff in press'd isn't real pseudo. It's one of those brands that has a COA which misidentifies one of the 11-OH analogs, calls it pseudo, but it's not. Those pills are dirty, leftover solvent. Gives me instant headaches, high body temperature/sweating, and weird concerning numbness... like I ate acetone or methanol or something.

The only brand I know of putting out real pseudo atm is Hydroxie. But those pills are also dirty... gives me liver pain and swelling, and a hepatic rash which caused scarring on my skin.

Most of those retail branded pills are dirty as fuck. Shoddy chemistry. The ONLY brand I've tried which is clean is the original 7ohms and certain online powders.

Anyways, my last misadventure with 7oh I was taking about 300mg per day. I was going through grams of 85% 7oh powder in about 3-4 days. On top of regular mit and some real pseudo. That's a stupid amount, I was only taking that much because my tolerance was ridiculous. Frankly, there is no reason to ever go more than 50mg per day, it only creates extreme diminishing returns and a wicked withdrawal.

All the pills are dirty, so many left over solvents, you can taste. It's makes the taste of Xanax taste like sweet peaches. I have a hunch that 7oh in and of itself is also toxic though and causes the numbness bc even with CLEAN pure powder I got numbness real bad especially in my arms and my feet but the arms were the scariest bc I had zero control and had to flail around for 20 minutes just to get some feeling back. It was the most pronounced when waking up but it'd happen mid day as well

 

[Kurt Cobain]

I started taking suboxone about 4 days ago to quit 7oh, same stuff 97-99% pure powder (about a gram per day for over 18 months the. I took suboxone briefly to kick oc years ago, and it worked. But this time around, sub hasn't touched this 7oh, like AT ALL!
I scheduled another appt. With my doctor for today, to see if he has any input/recommendations.
Feel free to stay in touch, compare notes, find a solution.

It gets better though man, really get your hands on gabapentin and if you smoke, smoke a lot. It's not as hard physically as H or fetty but the cravings are worse imo

 

[Deleted member 585202]

I got numbness real bad especially in my arms and my feet but the arms were the scariest bc I had zero control and had to flail around for 20 minutes just to get some feeling back. It was the most pronounced when waking up but it'd happen mid day as well

This is likely due to kratom alkaloids restricting blood flow. I get it from both regular kratom and 7oh. I notice it when laying in bed. My hands start going numb until I move them around and get blood flow again.

I used to fall asleep on top of my arm and it would go completely dead, can't even move it, kinda scary. And yeah you gotta flail it around for several minutes until you can feel it again.

The numbness I was describing from dirty solvents is different, it feels like tingling skin and all is over my body. It starts 20 minutes after eating the pills and lasts a few hours. It feels like dirty chemicals, not restricted blood flow.

 

[Allylbenzene]

so whats the general consensus here

I want to quit this week

will 8mg of suboxone allow me to quit or no?

I have no way of getting more of it.

Here are some OTC options to support opioid WD/detox, including how to REPAIR things.
Using everything together will be more effective than just suboxone.
YMMV depending on opioids used and for how long.

• Theanine
• Agmatine
• magnolol & honokiol - use a 90%+ standardised extract

Agmatine is used to reduce withdrawals and prevent tolerance build-up for stimulant, opioids, benzos and alcohol. It is anti-stress & anti-adrenaline.
Theanine and magnolol/honokiol are potent GABAergics = anti-stress, anti-adrenaline, anti-anxiety, anti-insomnia.

• Thymoquinone extract (reduces opioid withdrawals)
• Sodium ascorbate (reduces heroin withdrawals)
• Curcumin (attenuates opioid tolerance, dependence, and morphine withdrawal)
• Clove (facilitates the de-addiction of opiates) - probably due to eugenol & caryophyllene
• Linalool (morphine tolerance and dependence)
• Creatine (reduces withdrawals)

Opioid-sparing items that don't activate the mu-opioid receptor.

• Caryophyllene
• Cannabigerol
• Myrrh oil
• Menthol
• Vanillin
• Myrcene
• Pinene

The other side to this appoach is restoring the body's natural ability to regulate stress, make energy and produce dopamine.
This is achieved by restoring proper thyroid function and mitochondria (see this post on what they are and why they're worth repairing)

• Vitamin B1 (via B-complex)
• Niacinamide (50-100mg, with meals)
• Low dose aspirin (81-100mg max per day, why aspirin?)
• L-Phenylalanine (300-500mg, daily)
• Creatine (1g daily)
• CoQ10
• Ribose
• Inosine
• Rhodiola rosea (adaptogen)
• Coffee (+ honey + theanine) - why honey? this post explains how to use it sustainably to avoid negative-reactions (shakes, jitters, anxiety)
  

  The caffeine in coffee is powerful and can act like thyroid to increase your metabolic rate and the oxidation of sugar, making it a health-protective food.
  Symptoms to expect when you do coffee right are calmness, focus, motivation, warmth, and stable energy.

Repairing mitochondria improves the production of energy and the production of protective steroid hormones.
Both energy and steroids are needed to handle stress adaptively.

 

[Exs95]

Thank you so much for this!
Agmatine is a main supplement for WD's. It's helped me get off Diazepam rather easily before and I don't wake up in Opioid W/D the night before I dose 7, I just don't like taking it because it removes the effects of 7. Most of the stuff you listed I haven't heard of. I have plenty of Gabapentin and Diazepam as-well but I take both daily so I doubt it will help. Also have Pregabalin which definitely helps. But I'm going to order all of the other stuff you mentioned.

Most of my powders contain a decent amount of Psuedo in it so I'm definitely heavily addicted to that as-well.

This 7oh stuff is a damn DEMON. I lose all self control with it. I keep telling myself I want to taper but self control goes out the window. I'm going to try hard this week to taper. I also have plenty of MIT extract..

Also I have Musciol extract which studies have shown reduce PWD's in rodents, and I believe that helps a lot..

I seriously hope I can get off this stuff soon.. I wish my state would just ban it, honestly. Or at-least regulare it for chronic pain patients.

Still so lost on the rapid Suboxne taper.. keep getting different answers, everytime I ask about it people tell me how hellish are the W/D's even though I keep saying I only have 1 single strip and no way to get more.