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  • BDD Moderators: notsmokeymcpot42088 | RUC4

5 mg Valium twice a week for a year. How severe is this?

If you have access to a prescriber, I feel Clonidine (Catapres) is often a very good choice or a sleep aid. It's non-habit-forming and in my experience has always been pretty effective. For a lot of people, the sedating antihistamines like Diphenhydramine (Benadryl) or, as you mentioned, Doxylamine (Unisom) can exacerbate withdrawal symptoms.
 
this most recent i dropped down to 20mgs a day for a week or two, then 15mgs for a week or two, then i've been at 10mgs for probably two weeks. from here i plan on dropping to 7.5 for week or two, 5mg, 2.5mg, go 36 - 48 hours with none, then one last 2.5mg dose and be done. this is fast and included a significant initial drop in dose. when i had been daily for years, i initially leveled off at a higher dose and stayed at each dose for at least one month. and i started dropping by 2.5 at either 20 or 15mg, instead of at 10mg. as this most recent mistake only lasted a few months, but was momentarily at 80mgs daily toward the end, i'm trying to quickly get off and back on track. i don't think either of these are "ashton manual" compliant. my strategy is just never step backward. if i'm at a certain dose daily and it starts really hurting after a few days, i'll stay there longer before dropping down again -- as opposed to going back to the previous higher dose.

anyway, that doesn't apply to your situation because you are not daily. i don't know about a taper schedule that isn't daily. and every other day just sounds like self-torture. even during the taper where i took months at each step, it hurt. when it was finished, i hurt for long after. months. but after a few, the worst of it was over. some people talk about significant PAWS for years and years. that was not my experience.

you say it's impacting your ability to work out. that sounds like physical withdrawal. i don't know what you'd do about it other than tough it out. not going to high doses and not using daily beats any taper. i wouldn't dose again. while 2mg of klonopin is a high last dose, it was five days ago and preceded by two days of nothing. also, i still think your symptoms must primarily be the result of psychological dependence, which doesn't make them any less real. five to six years is more than enough time to become psychologically dependent on such a powerful source of relief. while i think they make things worse in the long run, in the acute sense nothing relieves symptoms like a benzo.

if you feel you really do need to taper, i echo my recommendation of permitting yourself 5mg a week or something along those lines for a few weeks. because that might address the psychological dependence. even though that's not ideal in my opinion, it's fine as long as you stick to it. or whatever exit strategy you choose. stick to it and don't draw it out longer than necessary.
 
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What about phenibut? I've used it before with success at 1 gram. It acts on the gaba A receptor, unlike Valium which acts on gaba B. Might this be a good substitute once or twice a week instead of Valium ? I always liked the way phenibut made me feel compared to Valium. I just opted for Valium because I would usually take it due to not being able to fall back asleep upon waking. Phenibut takes hours to kick in, so when I needed to fall back asleep quick, Valium was the logical choice
 
It's impacting my training because I am sleeping poorly. So I guess the Valium has indirectly effected it by giving me some restless nights due to a binge week
 
IMO I don't much advantage in using phenibut over diazepam. They both can be addictive and they both can have bad WD if they're abused. I wouldn't switch to phenibut if the diazepam helps.

If you're only trying to use something to help you sleep, I would reccomend trying OTC sleep aids, cannabis, kava, and gabapentin before using benzos or phenibut. Z-drugs might actually be really helpful in your situation since many of them have such a short half life.
 
emr123 said:
The insomnia was at its worst today. Should I taper the dose of Valium or continue to tough it out?

It occurred to me that I didn't specify what dosing scheme triggered these withdrawals.

Thursday dec 15: 1000 mg phenibut

Friday night: 2 shots tequila (I don't drink. Was out on a date)

Saturday morning: 5 mg Valium

Sunday morning: 15 mg Valium

Monday: nothing

Tuesday: 10 mg Valium

Wed: nothing

Thurs: nothing

Friday morning: 2 mg klonopin

Nothing since then

Prior to this, I went weeks without taking any benzodiazepines and was sleeping great

But I did average 10 mg/week in 2016

Should I taper?
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Perhaps the reason you could not sleep is the fact you were taking other substances. Alcohol is known to cause sleep disturbances. Plus you had taken 15 mg valium Sunday and 10 mg on Tuesday. Sounds like benzo related rebound insomnia. Are you prescribed klonopin as well?
 
In the last 9 days, I've used 10 mg Valium on two occasions. So I've decreased the volume compared to that week when I overdid it. I notice I get that rebound insomnia about 4 days after dosing, and that's when I find myself dosing again. Maybe I'll take a few days off from work and just get it all out of me. I read rebound symptoms can last up to a week.

I actually dosed 9.5 mg on one of those days
 
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I went 9 days without taking a benzo and the only problem I'm having is sleep. I had 3 bad nights in a row and couldn't afford another one, so I took 9.25 mg Valium and another 1 mg klonopin upon waking to put me back to sleep. Overall, I've taken benzos on 3 occasions over the last 17 days. So as hydro alluded to recently, there's no physical dependence, but more of a psychological one. Hopefully it's slowly getting back to normal. Any thoughts guys? I really hate taking these things now. I'm not taking anymore. If I have to take a few days off from work I will. But with all that being said, how much longer until everything is back to normal. I figured after 9 days everything would be good, but the insomnia seemed to get worse by the day
 
Had to take 1.5 mg klonopin last night and only got 4 hours sleep. I switched to klonopin thinking the shorter half life would be more conducive to treating acute insomnia and not have it linger in my system for a long time like Valium. I'm the last 22 days, I've taken a benzo on 4 of those days. I still get insomnia 3-5 days after dosing and that when I find myself dosing again. I went 8 days in a row without taking anything earlier this month. Any thoughts? Kind of frustrated
 
Slow_Mobius said:
I would highly reccomend trying kava on the nights you can't sleep
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I have some. In fluid form. Kava rhizome with root. Says take 2-5 times/day between meals. Sounds like it's something that has to build in your system. One dropper full is equivalent to 700 mg of herb. How do you suggest I dose?
 
Personally I would avoid extracts. They can be questionable, and with the currently lopsided supply-demand for kava, there's been a large increase in non-noble kava being sold. It's easier for them to do this with extracts since you never see the plants that are processed. I would do some research online to find a good source of noble kava root powder and how to properly prepare it.

If you're going to use the extract, though, you can experiment around with dosing. Kava can have a reverse tolerance effect where it becomes more noticeable the more you use it.
 
Slow_Mobius said:
Personally I would avoid extracts. They can be questionable, and with the currently lopsided supply-demand for kava, there's been a large increase in non-noble kava being sold. It's easier for them to do this with extracts since you never see the plants that are processed. I would do some research online to find a good source of noble kava root powder and how to properly prepare it.

If you're going to use the extract, though, you can experiment around with dosing. Kava can have a reverse tolerance effect where it becomes more noticeable the more you use it.
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I picked this one up at Whole Foods. I only tried it once and it numbed my mouth and tongue and made me slightly nauseous. I will use this for now and pick up some root powder online. I'll dose it three times today with one before bed.

What about phenibut? I understand it acts as a gabapentinoid and may be useful for someone in my situation. I also know it comes with its own risks. I could dose it every three days for a few weeks to address the rebound insomnia. Then just taper that down. Thinking 1 gram with kava, melatonin, and magnesium. I also take sermorelin every night (more of a
Bodybuilding aid to make pituitary release more growth hormone and increase igf 1)

What do you think?
 
That actually sounds like a good idea to me. I just wouldn't use the phenibut anymore than once or twice a week. People have posted some crazy horror stories about phenibut WD
 
Slow_Mobius said:
That actually sounds like a good idea to me. I just wouldn't use the phenibut anymore than once or twice a week. People have posted some crazy horror stories about phenibut WD
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That's what I'm going to do then. I feel way better on phenibut anyways. I like the idea even more since it's not a benzo (such a dirty word to me now).

Can you recommend a site where I can get powdered kava?
 
emr123 said:
That's what I'm going to do then. I feel way better on phenibut anyways. I like the idea even more since it's not a benzo (such a dirty word to me now).

Can you recommend a site where I can get powdered kava?
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We're not allowed to provide sources, but I can tell you to look for True Kava Labs noble kava certification. They independently test kavas from different vendors and will certify that a vendor only sells noble cultivars.

Here's a link to their site. They have some great info about the herb.

http://www.truekava.com

As for your attitude towards benzos, I personally wouldn't be against them if they're helping and you use them responsibly. Kava lacks the risk for physical dependence, and phenibut is less likely to cause physical dependence with 1-2x/week usage, so I think they're much better than benzos if they work for your. However, I wouldn't completely discount benzos if youre unable to find an alternative.
 
Slow_Mobius said:
We're not allowed to provide sources, but I can tell you to look for True Kava Labs noble kava certification. They independently test kavas from different vendors and will certify that a vendor only sells noble cultivars.

Here's a link to their site. They have some great info about the herb.

http://www.truekava.com

As for your attitude towards benzos, I personally wouldn't be against them if they're helping and you use them responsibly. Kava lacks the risk for physical dependence, and phenibut is less likely to cause physical dependence with 1-2x/week usage, so I think they're much better than benzos if they work for your. However, I wouldn't completely discount benzos if youre unable to find an alternative.
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I will check them out. Thanks

Yeah I'm a little salty now about benzos. Up until that binge week I was sleeping great and hadn't used a benzo in like three weeks. Don't know what the heck I was thinking. Just had a lot going on that week.

But I think Valium is the worst case scenario at this point with its long half life. Why would I want it in my system for a week when I'm just using it for an occasional sleepless night? I know klonopin is long too, but not as long.

I did the math, and I took 9.5 mg Tuesday morning. I figure by Tuesday of this week it will pretty much be gone from my system with a negligible amount left. The klonopin I took this morning should be gone by then too right? Took 1.5 mg
 
Couldn't sleep last night. This was preceded by several days of 4-5.5 hours sleep. I know my binge that one week in December was bad but it's out of my system by now. It's January 20 and I only took benzos on 3 days: Jan 1: 9.5 mg Valium, Jan 10: 9.5 mg Valium and 1 mg klonopin, January 14: 1.5 mg klonopin. I also took 1000 mg phenibut on Jan 15

Is it possible to still be having rebound insomnia?
 
you're torturing yourself by continuing to take benzos and phenibut. it will hurt like fucking hell to just stop -- insomnia is beyond maddening and impacts your ability to achieve or even maintain the next day -- but you gotta pull the bandaid all the way off. no gabaergics.
 
I thought this would have passed by now. I'm only experiencing the sleeplessness though. So these are in fact withdrawals? I thought they were spaced out enough but I guess I just have to stop altogether. It's been 6 days since I took a benzo. 10-14 days is the peak?
 
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