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4AceT (4 Acetoxy Tryptamine)

G

gladiolus

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
59
Hi All,
I posted this about a year ago and the thread was closed because people didn't believe that this substance was active, regardless of my report. Also, people were turned off by the fact that I document fecal movements and everything else during the report. A senior moderator has also been contacted by the supplier verifying the legitimacy. I have recently obtained a chemical assay of this substance verifying it to be 4AceT, so I re-present my initial report for the public eruditive record...



4AceT (4 Acetoxy Tryptamine) Assay

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I have the (dubious) honour of being the first person in the world to report an assay of 4-Ace-Tryptamine [hereafter 4acet]
I speculated that the 4-bond disactivated/rendered insusceptible monoamineoxidase , and this was why psilocin was active where DMT was not.
So I managed, after many years, to test the hypothesis with the paradigm case of 4acet; where Tryptamine, DMT, 5-OH Tryptamine (and 5-Meo DiMethylTryptamine) had all failed – in being orally active.

My original interest in the 4 series came after my first mushroom experience. At the tail end of the trip it significantly changed, and manifested a very strange feeling which stays with me still. Every time I go to the toilet I have the feeling that I’m actually urinating in a dream, and that somewhere I am wetting myself. It struck me at the time that some metabolite of psilocin was implicated in this feeling, and that this metabolite was actually a mycelial pre-cursor to psilocin. How does the mushroom synthesize psilocin from tryptophan? – is it

Tryptophan à Tryptamine à DMT à 4HO DMT

Or is it Tryptophanà 4HO Tryptophan à 4HO Tryptamine à 4HO-DMT
Or Tryptophan à Tryptamine à 4HO Tryptamine à 4HO-DMT

I knew it wasn’t the first, as the DMT experience is so different to the 4HO-DMT experience and what I was experiencing was not DMT-like. So I began to look for sources of 4HO Tryptophan and 4HO Tryptamine.

My attempts were aborted after a quote of $5K for 100g of 4HO-Tryptophan. But after waiting patiently for a few years, some 4-Ace-Tryptamine landed in my lap.
Now I’ve tried the Ace series and the Ace certainly leaves a signature; but one thing for sure is that the Ace don’t lie where the HO is inactive: thus, if 4AceT was active then it is a pretty good sign that 4HOT is active and I am one step closer to discovering my dream chemical.

DAS TRIPS
1)
0h Took 5mg of 4Acet
+45min dreariness overcomes me, very seretonergic. Go to sleep.

2)
0h Took 17mg of 4Acet
+50min sleepiness, eyelids drooping
+1h 20min very sleepy and dreamy
+2h close “Tesseract” by Alex Garland and rest my eyes. Things are getting very swimmy.
+3h I have been pummelled to and fro. My mind is all ajitter. I go to the toilet and do a very big shit, like my rectum is just opening forth and spewing. I feel like I’m very high and trippy at this stage
+4h I am lying in bed and the trip starts to muse on chinese themes. There are dragons and the Kundalini force is aching in my sciatic nerves [the Acetoxy signature]. There is a constant rush and swelling, then a subsiding of the ego. I imagine a little flame held in the belly below the navel of every one that swells and diminishes with the interior oxygen. Whoa suddenly I realize that these Chinese people I see, living in close quarters, are shielding their flame, as you would guard a lantern walking along a beach.

+5h There is a constant curliqueing of thoughts around one another, leading from the base to the head; my mind plays on it by restraining and then bellowing. I cannot control my thoughts. I am very restless in bed. My partner must be having a bad nights sleep.

+6h a solid base trippiness has been achieved. I wait an hour and then decide to end the trip by taking an antipsychotic medicament.

I have had 4Acet on the odd occasion since that last, and every time it has been very active. I remember thinking that this stuff is as visual as you can get without the visuals.

I can’t wait to try 4-Ace Tryptophan, as I am sure this will have the same seretonergic/soporific delerium but with less of a psychedelic quality. In fact, I hereby assert patent for:[“4-Acetoxy Tryptophan” for any anxiolytic, antidepressant and antipsychotic purposes.]
 
yeah, but keep in mind that psilocybin (4-PO-DMT) metabolizes into psilocin (4-HO-DMT) in pretty much the same way as 4-AcO-DMT does. so norbaeocystin (4-PO-T) probably metabolizes into 4-HO-T, and we can reasonably assume 4-AcO-T does as well, hence the effects are going to be quite subjectively similar.
 
^I concur.
it would make sense, but there are usually subtle differences between trypts with the same N,N subs and different 4-subs
 
danceofdays: That's a lot of assumptions, and even if they're all correct it doesn't guarantee substantially similar effects - look at 4-aco-dmt, which many people find very distinct from psilocin. I'm no chemist but I wouldn't be so confident about all that.

atara: Baeocystin is 4-PO-NMT. That N-methyl on the tryptamine makes it substantially more similar to the other known active tryptamines, so I wouldn't assume that norbaeocystin is active just because baeocystin is (if the latter even is - reports are quite limited). Again, not a chemist, that's just my 2 cents.

OP: interesting report. Have you confirmed the identity of the material with an independent lab, or is the only verification you have that which the vendor provided? For such an unusual and, to my knowledge, previously unreported active compound, it would be nice to see independent results to confirm that it is, in fact, 4-AcO-T.
 
danceofdays said:
yeah, but keep in mind that psilocybin (4-PO-DMT) metabolizes into psilocin (4-HO-DMT) in pretty much the same way as 4-AcO-DMT does. so norbaeocystin (4-PO-T) probably metabolizes into 4-HO-T, and we can reasonably assume 4-AcO-T does as well, hence the effects are going to be quite subjectively similar.
Click to expand...


Shulgin is not God, just one hell of an incarnate of the human spirit. He does make mistakes and this is one I can so clearly taste! As somebody who has done many high dose mushroom and 4-aco-dmt trips.... I can't really compare them as much as people think. They are closer to each other than many other tryptamines, but really, they don't share the same themes for me in so many different ways.
 
^ I agree with you. There is no way in hell anyone could convince me (or many people I know who post here) that 4-AcO-DiPT converts into 4-HO-DiPT. These two are so different that the only similarity seems to be in the naming. I have also been always very dubious about shulgin's hypothesis about essential oils converting to their corresponding amphetamines in vivo, though if I'm not mistaken even shulgin doubts his own hypothesis on both matters.

--

OP: Interesting, but as Solistus suggested, you'd be giving yourself a lot more validity if you were to provide the analysis of your compound.

For now, and with all due respect, I remain skeptical for the same reasons Dondante was skeptical in the earlier thread you made on the matter. I also find the duration difficult to believe, but I also give you the benefit of the doubt that this could be conjugated or converted into something else that is very active.
 
different people with different hormones or different diets may have differing amounts of n-methyl-transferase enzymes (and associated methyl donors). It has been speculated that tryptophan combined with a high dose of a methyl donor (like SAMe or methionine) can activate the body's ability to make DMT in vivo... i don't know if it's ever been conclusively proven.

it is possible (though there is no actual evidence yet) that that OP is also methylating his 4-AcO-T into the acetyl version of baeocystin and all the related 4-HO-NMT type compounds.

have you ever tried heroic doses to determine where the ceiling of this compound is? i would like to believe you, but so far your reports could be mostly placebo.
 
atara said:
Basically, you're looking at norbaeocystin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbaeocystin

Baeocystin was active, norbaeocystin probably is too.

I have a hunch that if you stick an alpha carbon or two on that compound you'll find people become very interested in your report... those would be 4-AcO-AMT and 4-AcO-AET.
Click to expand...

Well, for years here myself and some others (notably samadhi_smiles when he was here) were trying to argue for baeocystin's activity, while most of the rest of the world seemed to be saying it was totally inactive. If I recall the testers found it to be lightly active in an atypical fashion for a 4-hydroxy-tryptamine, mostly a physical energy feeling.

But my point is that in discussing this you can't even assume that everyone shares the belief that baeocystin and norbaeocystin are active.

Jamshyd said:
^ I agree with you. There is no way in hell anyone could convince me (or many people I know who post here) that 4-AcO-DiPT converts into 4-HO-DiPT. These two are so different that the only similarity seems to be in the naming. I have also been always very dubious about shulgin's hypothesis about essential oils converting to their corresponding amphetamines in vivo, though if I'm not mistaken even shulgin doubts his own hypothesis on both matters.
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Yes, I am one of the most vocal at least of the people in this community who believes that there is more going on with the esters of 4-position tryptamines all converted in vivo to their 4-hydroxy counterparts. My main evidence is with 4-AcO-DMT and 4-HO-DMT, personally, since they affect me SO much differently (and yes, I've had both pure compounds on numerous occasions and situations and dosages). But you're right, Jamshyd, 4-HO-DiPT and 4-AcO-DiPT are also a great example. I think it's kind of silly to assume that their effects range so much simply due to the AcO converting and entering the BBB at a different rate... it seems much more likely to me, from my experience, that the AcO tryptamines (and the other esters, like PO), even if they DO convert to some extent in vivo, can cross the BBB in their own right or at least produce their different effects by a different mechanism of action than their counterparts.

My personal theory is that different bodies can convert the AcO (or PO or whatever) into the hydroxy at varying speeds... some do it quite quickly, leading to the people who find psilocin and 4-AcO-DMT to be pretty much the same or very similar, while some do not convert it nearly as readily, like me, who find the effects of the two to be dramatically different, easily distinguishable in a double blind trial every time. (NOTE: I have not actually conducted any double-blind trials with the two - see my next post)
 
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Xorkoth said:
My personal theory is that different bodies can convert the AcO (or PO or whatever) into the hydroxy at varying speeds... some do it quite quickly, leading to the people who find psilocin and 4-AcO-DMT to be pretty much the same or very similar, while some do not convert it nearly as readily, like me, who find the effects of the two to be dramatically different, easily distinguishable in a double blind trial every time.
Click to expand...
I'm curious to know whether you've actually tried a double blind trial of this, and if so how many times, or are you just so struck by the subjectively experienced difference that you'd be surprised if that much of a difference could be due to your expectations? However varied your range of sets and settings you've had for experiences of both compounds, a double blind trial would indeed be necessary to rule out the effect of subjective expectations, as I guess you must know. Particularly with a complex and multifaceted experience such as a psychedelic experience, I imagine there'd be much opportunity for perceiving and attending to radically different parts of the experience depending on expectation.

I hope you realize I don't mean to suggest you lack an acute ability to provide rigorous subjective reports about your experiences. I've read trip reports etc of yours, and know you are very perceptive and thoughtful. But without actually conducting a proper trial, it's difficult to rule out biases in perception and cognition about the experience. :)
 
No, admittedly I have not so perhaps I should have worded that differently. However, I would bet everything I have that it would be true. For me, 4-AcO-DMT is almost nothing like mushrooms, and is more like a slower-moving smoked DMT in feel and mental state. 4-HO-DMT is also different from mushrooms but it is clearly the main component of mushrooms as the core elements are there. I can honestly say that 4-AcO-DMT feels absolutely nothing like mushrooms for me, and the first time I tried it I fully expected it to be pretty much the same (which was why I was so excited to get it :)).
 
nopipesdfw said:
Shulgin is not God, just one hell of an incarnate of the human spirit. He does make mistakes and this is one I can so clearly taste! As somebody who has done many high dose mushroom and 4-aco-dmt trips.... I can't really compare them as much as people think. They are closer to each other than many other tryptamines, but really, they don't share the same themes for me in so many different ways.
Click to expand...


Well you compare 2 different things, mushrooms contain a wide mixture of different active substances (well okay maybe those are only 5% or less but they influence the trip for sure) while 4-aco-dmt is a pure substance so if you have acces to pure 4-po-dmt and 4-aco-dmt and test those Im pretty sure they fell the same. Everybody comparing those 2 have tested mushrooms gainst 4-aco-dmt or am I wrong?
 
4-aco-dmt has a completely different feel to mushrooms. mushrooms always had more emotional content to them, 4-aco-dmt just feels very different in a more clearheaded but much crazier halucinations way. things look FAR more topsy turvy on 4-aco-dmt the halucinations are more REAL if that makes sense while the corresponding mental state is less confused and you can do things without having to think about them where as on mushrooms its harder to keep your head together. both can make a mess of you

plus the visuals look very different- shrooms are more clouding and blurry, while 4-aco-dmt is clear and vibrant
 
I personally believe, or have a hunch, that, in the case 4-aco-dmt, it depends on the individuals rate metabolism, for whether 4-aco-dmt exhibits more unique characters than 4-ho-dmt. From my experience there is only a few differences in the subjective experience, though I've never dosed pure 4-ho-dmt, only different types of mushrooms. I find that different mushrooms have just as much varying effect as 4-aco-dmt from mushrooms (i know this sentence doesn't make that much sense, just don't know how else to say it). 4-aco-dmt comes on a little bit slower than mushrooms, about an hour and 15 to peak rather than an hour, and the come up is a little bit less anxious. I find it to be way more similar to mushrooms than to DMT. I honestly probably couldn't tell the two substance (4-aco-dmt and mushroom) apart besides the comeup, but even then I wouldn't be sure as I recently took some mushrooms that come up a little bit longer than usual.
 
invert said:
I'm curious to know whether you've actually tried a double blind trial of this, and if so how many times, or are you just so struck by the subjectively experienced difference that you'd be surprised if that much of a difference could be due to your expectations? However varied your range of sets and settings you've had for experiences of both compounds, a double blind trial would indeed be necessary to rule out the effect of subjective expectations, as I guess you must know. Particularly with a complex and multifaceted experience such as a psychedelic experience, I imagine there'd be much opportunity for perceiving and attending to radically different parts of the experience depending on expectation.

I hope you realize I don't mean to suggest you lack an acute ability to provide rigorous subjective reports about your experiences. I've read trip reports etc of yours, and know you are very perceptive and thoughtful. But without actually conducting a proper trial, it's difficult to rule out biases in perception and cognition about the experience. :)
Click to expand...
I don't know if trials of subjective effects would be of any utility when it comes to psychs. But if there was a way to detect and measure 4-HO-xxT in the blood of someone who ingested the acetate-ester, then an objective trial could provide some more insight.
 
Torabora said:
Well you compare 2 different things, mushrooms contain a wide mixture of different active substances (well okay maybe those are only 5% or less but they influence the trip for sure) while 4-aco-dmt is a pure substance so if you have acces to pure 4-po-dmt and 4-aco-dmt and test those Im pretty sure they fell the same. Everybody comparing those 2 have tested mushrooms gainst 4-aco-dmt or am I wrong?
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Yep, you're wrong ;)

Just a couple posts above you, Xorkoth mentions that he's had pure psilocin on many occasions and finds it very unlike 4-aco-dmt. I'm sure someone's done the same thing with pure psilocybin, but unless you're proposing that psilocybin is substantially different from psilocin (which would be kinda odd, since the evidence that psilocybin is a 'mere' psilocin prodrug is much stronger than the evidence for psilacetin being one), I don't see how that would matter.

I'd find the 'other actives in mushrooms are the main source of subjective differences' theory if 4-aco just felt like mushrooms lite - like the same basic experience but missing some elements. It doesn't feel like mushrooms at all to me, though, and it feels a LOT like sub-breakthrough DMT. The visuals, the body high and the mental state are all shockingly similar to an extended DMT experience.

Jamshyd: how would that rule out the theory that, while 4-aco does deacetylate into 4-ho, it's also active on its own? Maybe I'm in the minority and don't realise it but that's what I thought the general consensus was among those who feel the acetate is active on its own and experientially distinct.
 
Not ruling out anything, simply debunking (or not) the idea that acetoxies are simply prodrugs to the hydroxy versions.

If the hydroxy is found in the blood of someone who only consumed the acetoxy, then we know at least with some certainty that at least part of the effects are caused by the conversion.
 
Jamshyd said:
I don't know if trials of subjective effects would be of any utility when it comes to psychs.
Click to expand...

Well, it would at least allow one to see whether the claim that 4-AcO- and 4-HO- are subjectively different, for a given individual making that claim, is true. But yes, not massively informative; just more so than the untested reported subjective impression. It wouldn't tell us anything about the metabolic and/or psychopharmalogical differences underlying the subjective difference in effects.

But if there was a way to detect and measure 4-HO-xxT in the blood of someone who ingested the acetate-ester, then an objective trial could provide some more insight.
Click to expand...
Sure, that would of course be much more informative. :)
 
Cellular and Molecular Life Sciences
Volume 16, Number 11, 505-506, DOI: 10.1007/BF02158367
Kurze Mitteilungen

Pharmacological actions of 4-hydroxytryptamine and 4-hydroxytryptophan
There is this study i found which I belive supports the claim that 4-OHT is active.
I can't quite tell becuase I haven't read the full article.

To doubt the veracity of the identification of the chemical is one thing: to assert that in fact my experience, whatever one might think it was was an experience of, was no more than a placebo experience another thing entirely. This was pretty solid trippiness, easily a +++
I'm not how anyone posting any trip report about any substance is meant to overcome such assertions. It's setting the bar a little unfairly high. Although, I believe that "extraordinary claims require extra-ordinary evidence" I don't think that this claim is particulary extraordinary. For instance, I don't know of anyone who has ever asserted that 4-OH T, or 4-Ace T would be or are inactive - do you?
 
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