2017 Trump Presidency Thread
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my position has been twisted and turned and mischaracterized and lied about many times here so i'm not surprised that you don't know. this is my position:
alasdair
alasdair
SKL
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;dr if you think it is tl; but there's a lot of worthwhile stuff in there and it is not just about Christian apologetics at all, more of a comparative religions type thing. I put effort into these posts because I know some people are reading and learning; unfortunately many of the least educated people on the subject are the least likely to read what amounts to a very short and very informal essay on the subject that any undergrad had ought to be able to understand and probably benefit from because there is a remarkable ignorance in this forum about both Christianity and Islam and both of their respective scriptures. I won't ask for a show of hands of who's actually read both the Bible and Qu'ran and a good bit about them, but it does not seem that there would be many raised. Much less anyone who's mucked around with the original languages (although I admit a total ignorance of Arabic and very weak Hebrew, only passable Greek and Latin, but what I mean to say is that I've actually put an effort into understanding this rather than just sloganeering and taking things entirely out of context and speaking on thing is that I don't actually know about, something which I find quite irritating. And sometime this rising to outright offensive as I'm sure it is the same for Muslims listening to ignorant people speak on the subject of Islam.)
as for your post, i said essentially the same thing, although avoiding buzzwords like "islamophohe" (why not just "anti-Islam?") which is to say, both Bible (and it's almost invariably the OT, particularly the earlier historical books by which I roughly mean those which in the standard order in which Bibles/Tanakhs have been arranged since time immemorial although it's not quite chronological) and Qu'ran (also roughly but not wholly chronological but chronological enough that you can observe a change in the attitude towards Jews, for example, before and after Muhammad had a lot of contact with them and tried and failed to convert them whereupon the attitude goes from remarkably tolerant to outright anti-Semetic) are historical works, or even if you don't believe they are authentic, are presented and intended as such, although they do teach morals, doctrine and religious law (the OT Jewish law being largely superseded and no longer held to be obligatory on Christians by any mainstream denomination, although there are still worthwhile lessons to be learned here and there), etc. the quotes like the one presented above, as well as many oft-cited Quranic quotes, in context, almost invariably deal with a specific situation that happened ~1,300-3,500 years ago or so.
a modern believer taking individual quotes out of context and abusing them is using bad hermeneutics and bad theology. people who use the same quotes to abuse the religion itself are guilty of the very same thing. But criticizing the small minority of practitioners of whatever faith who go way overboard with abuse of Scriptures (i.e., ISIS wanting to live, make war, and die because of examples in the Quran which record incidents during the life of Muhammad; the much, much larger movement Zionist revanchism, occupation and those who want to expand to "Biblical borders," both of whom resort to war, murder, and wholesale terror) is a different thing entirely and is completely valid; trying to extend this to all modern day practitioners of the faith is stupid.
criticizing Christianity over incidents in Jewish history 3,000 years after the fact and 2,000 years after Jesus, and the radical reforms that followed becoming considered another religion entirely after most Jews did not accept His teachings, divinity, and resurrection, just betrays ignorance of what kind of books the Bible really is the same can be said for people who criticize Islam based on the largely tribal wars fought by Muhammad and his contemporaries. ISIS, considered whacko even by Al-Qaeda and mainstream Saudis, wants to actually reenact all of this in the most literal fashion possible. They are an entirely different animal then almost any other group of religious people that you will find anywhere. In terms of people who want to live in another era you have groups like the Old Order Amish and certain the monastic orders but they are certainly not trying to reenact tribal warfare from the Biblical era, which is quite natural because they cling tightly to the pacifistic teachings of Jesus Christ. Revanchist Zionism (among Jews, some not even religious but simply racialists, and Christians as well) falls somewhere in between.
Most believers throughout history have practiced their faith rather than trying to revert to their world into one that resembles that in which the authors of their Sacred Scriptures lived. This is something that not only if these extremist groups don't understand but a lot of their critics don't understand either because the critics wind up over applying what is true of the extremists to everyone in the group; although passive support for Zionism and ISIS type Islam is fairly large (especially the former which is actually the only group in this category to succeed in becoming a world power and then only by exploiting bad theology to manipulate not only their own but Christians as well.)
The reason that I making this long posts and also the reason that I would like to see all of this moved into a different thread has a lot of this type of discussion is spread over many different political threads here is that there is a lot of the same old misunderstandings going on and it's owners should be given one space to debate and even learn a thing or two.
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What 23
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I haven't fully read the responses, to my post. I should welcome sourcing (and admittedly, I let myself down by my lack of trying). It isn't really that. But again, are your views that we're all equal, and all cultures are equal (or that the people can just easily transfer or will want to), and equally deserving of each other's affections and loyalty, something found to be good, by proof? I understand the push for it, and would agree that a general politeness and caring for life in general is the best policy... But a lot of what is going on right now, that people here seem to be defending as if it's the infallible truth of the way, or something (that it's desirable to become a minority... or okay, for instance), I have never exactly seen that it is information based... fact-based. People act as if there is already an established truth that has been proven, yet they don't offer real arguments for it. It's closer to ideology/dogma. They demand proof to take it down, and they rest on this unproven claim. And if things don't support their ideas, they'll just ignore them, dismiss them, and continue to repeat the same falsehood (such as, blank-slate ideology...). Other things, perhaps.
If you want to compare the religions, directly compare Muhammad to Jesus, and their actions. They're the role models. TL;DR (in that): Muhammad fucked a 9 year old and slaughtered cities. Jesus did not. He healed people, and loved people- that's the main story.
If you want to compare the religions, directly compare Muhammad to Jesus, and their actions. They're the role models. TL;DR (in that): Muhammad fucked a 9 year old and slaughtered cities. Jesus did not. He healed people, and loved people- that's the main story.
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SKL
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Human equality on any measure of any kind is most definitely not a proven truth and it's use as a "null hypothesis" in research, to say nothing of the attempts to suppress research that questions it, is extremely questionable if not downright wrong.
I do think that Americans spend too much time worrying about Islam; Europeans have a demographic crisis but it's racial and cultural rather than exclusively religious, although historic Churches being turned into Mosques is troubling; and yet a lot of that is because nominal Christian Western Europe has long abandoned it's religious ideals in favor of hedonism, solipsism, birth control, whatever. In general, Islam, in and of itself (originally an amalgamation of novelty and ancient Christian heresy which has evolved and been adapted over the centuries into a non-Christian religion, not unlike Mormonism [which has many striking parallels with Islam] and even Scientology [gnosticism in strange money colored Xenu-and-anti-psychiatry wrapping] in this respect) gets a bad rap, though. And anti-Muslim sentiment it is a convenient shield for Zionism and economic-political Jewish interests which pose far greater danger to Western civilization in the long run, and have done a great deal to bring about the current crises involving Islam, the dwindling Church, the degeneration of morals, immigration, multiculturalism and moral relativism and so on (cf. MacDonald, etc.)
To return to the subject of the threads at hand, Trump is doing just that, deflecting/shielding, and whipping up paranoia against Islam in a pussified nation who is still traumatised by 9/11, which is the type of shit that happens rather often in many places in the world, at least proportionally; to say nothing of what this country does to (mostly Islamic these days) other countries.
I do think that Americans spend too much time worrying about Islam; Europeans have a demographic crisis but it's racial and cultural rather than exclusively religious, although historic Churches being turned into Mosques is troubling; and yet a lot of that is because nominal Christian Western Europe has long abandoned it's religious ideals in favor of hedonism, solipsism, birth control, whatever. In general, Islam, in and of itself (originally an amalgamation of novelty and ancient Christian heresy which has evolved and been adapted over the centuries into a non-Christian religion, not unlike Mormonism [which has many striking parallels with Islam] and even Scientology [gnosticism in strange money colored Xenu-and-anti-psychiatry wrapping] in this respect) gets a bad rap, though. And anti-Muslim sentiment it is a convenient shield for Zionism and economic-political Jewish interests which pose far greater danger to Western civilization in the long run, and have done a great deal to bring about the current crises involving Islam, the dwindling Church, the degeneration of morals, immigration, multiculturalism and moral relativism and so on (cf. MacDonald, etc.)
To return to the subject of the threads at hand, Trump is doing just that, deflecting/shielding, and whipping up paranoia against Islam in a pussified nation who is still traumatised by 9/11, which is the type of shit that happens rather often in many places in the world, at least proportionally; to say nothing of what this country does to (mostly Islamic these days) other countries.
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looks like an absolutely humiliating defeat for trump - and republicans - today on the healthcare bill.
he said he'd drain the swamp. not so much.
he said he'd build a wall and mexico would pay for it. not so much.
the travel ban. not so much.
he made repealing obamacare an immediate priority for his administration. not so much.
on obamacare repeal, he'll blame everybody but himself but this is his failure. i guess he's not the amazing "art of the deal" negotiator he claims to be.
alasdair
he said he'd drain the swamp. not so much.
he said he'd build a wall and mexico would pay for it. not so much.
the travel ban. not so much.
he made repealing obamacare an immediate priority for his administration. not so much.
on obamacare repeal, he'll blame everybody but himself but this is his failure. i guess he's not the amazing "art of the deal" negotiator he claims to be.
alasdair
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Cream Gravy?
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Maybe they should have tried to make compromises with the other party; oh wait, that would defeat the whole anti-poor/female/minority/drug user agenda of the GOP ![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Not that Democrats are being any more reasonable these days though...
Not that Democrats are being any more reasonable these days though...
What 23
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I don't think they could really work out a plan that wasn't going to fail, like Obamacare is supposedly set to (I don't know enough about it)- they knew it would be disaster if they changed it. Maybe let it fail, and go to single-payer? I'm ignorant on these matters.
SKL
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What a goatfuck. I have little to say. I am in favor of neither Obamacare or whatever the fuck Ryancare/Trumpcare would turn out to be (I'm strongly in favor of single payer), but yeah, goatfucking is abundant here. It's symptomatic of the failures of the Republican party in general; although the Democrat party is hardly doing any better these days. Both are really circling the drain, as is our whole political system, really; this is just one manifestation. The vast majority of people, and probably a considerable number of the Congress members in question, don't really understand what the fuck is going on and what changes are really getting put into place (there's been more emphasis in the media, etc. about what's not being changed), although the numbers projected about the uninsured, etc. are not looking good; the #1 agenda should of course be dealing with the medical and pharmaceutical lobbies, but that shit isn't going to happen. So all of this is just a whole lot of nonsense, a trainwreck.
And it does not bode well for Trump, at all, and his whole pitch of "making deals," etc., and the various faux pas diplomatically and otherwise; we're barely into the first year and already reëlection, if not even talking about finishing out the term without some kind of major constitutional crisis not seen since Nixon, is not looking good for him at all.
What he needs, of course, is a war. That's always been a good way to get Americans behind their president. That's a scary prospect for the future; but now, in basically every domestic battle he's fighting now, he's winding up on the losing end, and there's really nothing to say about him and his appointees is other than amateurism or dilletantism. Although, personally, I'd rather a government full of imbeciles and incompetents than one full of competent and very, very wicked and deeply entrenched in the system political operatives. Amateurism in politics is not new but domestic and international politics is so much more complex now. What I wonder, in the nearish term future (a decade or so) is whether Trump's goatfucking will lead to more and more technocrats running or winning, or if amateurism is the new thing, what with social media and all that shit.
But anyway, on topic…
From the Atlantic (the whole thing is worth a read)—
And this is a hell of a thing, too—the Donald Himself callls a Washington Post reporter to say that the health care bill is dead.
And it does not bode well for Trump, at all, and his whole pitch of "making deals," etc., and the various faux pas diplomatically and otherwise; we're barely into the first year and already reëlection, if not even talking about finishing out the term without some kind of major constitutional crisis not seen since Nixon, is not looking good for him at all.
What he needs, of course, is a war. That's always been a good way to get Americans behind their president. That's a scary prospect for the future; but now, in basically every domestic battle he's fighting now, he's winding up on the losing end, and there's really nothing to say about him and his appointees is other than amateurism or dilletantism. Although, personally, I'd rather a government full of imbeciles and incompetents than one full of competent and very, very wicked and deeply entrenched in the system political operatives. Amateurism in politics is not new but domestic and international politics is so much more complex now. What I wonder, in the nearish term future (a decade or so) is whether Trump's goatfucking will lead to more and more technocrats running or winning, or if amateurism is the new thing, what with social media and all that shit.
But anyway, on topic…
From the Atlantic (the whole thing is worth a read)—
“This was absolutely a bad decision to move this type of bill this early.”
Trump had initially insisted that Republicans hold a vote on the bill regardless of the outcome, wanting to see which members would defy him. He dispatched his top lieutenants to Capitol Hill on Wednesday night to urge rank-and-file lawmakers to fall in line, ending negotiations with the party’s right and left flank on further changes to the bill. But few members were persuaded, and by Friday, party leaders in the House wanted to spare their members from having to cast a vote in favor of an unpopular bill that would not become law. At a hastily arranged meeting in the Capitol basement, Ryan told Republicans he had called off the vote and said Trump was on board with the decision. Minutes later, stone-faced lawmakers left the meeting and prepared to head back to their districts for the weekend. One Republican staffer was in tears as she exited the room.
While conservative members of the Freedom Caucus withheld their support despite winning a last-minute amendment to broaden the repeal, it was the defection of more moderate and electorally vulnerable members that sealed its fate. Republicans could afford to lose no more than 22 votes to achieve a majority, and in a statement at the White House Friday, Trump estimated that they were 10 to 15 votes short. In perhaps the most ominous sign for the GOP leadership, the chairman of the powerful Appropriations Committee, Representative Rodney Frelinghuysen of New Jersey, announced he would oppose the bill on Thursday morning. In previous generations, it would be unheard of for a top committee chairman to oppose party leaders on such a major vote. Representatives Barbara Comstock of Virginia and David Joyce of Ohio followed suit about an hour later, sapping momentum from the effort less than a day after Trump delivered his ultimatum to Republicans to pass his bill or see Obamacare live on.
“We need to start having victories as a party.”
The White House and GOP leaders searched for votes wherever they could, but there were few lawmakers willing to suddenly support a bill they had already publicly denounced. Representative Walter Jones of North Carolina, a frequent dissenter in the party, said he waved off a last-minute call from the office of Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the party whip. “I said, ‘Let me tell you: I don’t want to waste his time,’” Jones told reporters. “I don’t see anybody that was a no yesterday changing their vote.” He then ripped into the proposal and the leadership’s insistence that it pass. “This was absolutely a bad decision to move this type of bill this early,” Jones said.
Defeat on the floor dealt Trump a major blow early in his presidency, but its implications were far more serious for the Republican Party as a whole. Handed unified control of the federal government for only the third time since World War II, the modern GOP was unable to overcome its internecine fights to enact a key part of its policy agenda. The president now wants to move on to a comprehensive overhaul of the tax code, but insiders on Capitol Hill have long believed that project will be an even heavier lift than health care.
Trump had initially insisted that Republicans hold a vote on the bill regardless of the outcome, wanting to see which members would defy him. He dispatched his top lieutenants to Capitol Hill on Wednesday night to urge rank-and-file lawmakers to fall in line, ending negotiations with the party’s right and left flank on further changes to the bill. But few members were persuaded, and by Friday, party leaders in the House wanted to spare their members from having to cast a vote in favor of an unpopular bill that would not become law. At a hastily arranged meeting in the Capitol basement, Ryan told Republicans he had called off the vote and said Trump was on board with the decision. Minutes later, stone-faced lawmakers left the meeting and prepared to head back to their districts for the weekend. One Republican staffer was in tears as she exited the room.
While conservative members of the Freedom Caucus withheld their support despite winning a last-minute amendment to broaden the repeal, it was the defection of more moderate and electorally vulnerable members that sealed its fate. Republicans could afford to lose no more than 22 votes to achieve a majority, and in a statement at the White House Friday, Trump estimated that they were 10 to 15 votes short. In perhaps the most ominous sign for the GOP leadership, the chairman of the powerful Appropriations Committee, Representative Rodney Frelinghuysen of New Jersey, announced he would oppose the bill on Thursday morning. In previous generations, it would be unheard of for a top committee chairman to oppose party leaders on such a major vote. Representatives Barbara Comstock of Virginia and David Joyce of Ohio followed suit about an hour later, sapping momentum from the effort less than a day after Trump delivered his ultimatum to Republicans to pass his bill or see Obamacare live on.
“We need to start having victories as a party.”
The White House and GOP leaders searched for votes wherever they could, but there were few lawmakers willing to suddenly support a bill they had already publicly denounced. Representative Walter Jones of North Carolina, a frequent dissenter in the party, said he waved off a last-minute call from the office of Representative Steve Scalise of Louisiana, the party whip. “I said, ‘Let me tell you: I don’t want to waste his time,’” Jones told reporters. “I don’t see anybody that was a no yesterday changing their vote.” He then ripped into the proposal and the leadership’s insistence that it pass. “This was absolutely a bad decision to move this type of bill this early,” Jones said.
Defeat on the floor dealt Trump a major blow early in his presidency, but its implications were far more serious for the Republican Party as a whole. Handed unified control of the federal government for only the third time since World War II, the modern GOP was unable to overcome its internecine fights to enact a key part of its policy agenda. The president now wants to move on to a comprehensive overhaul of the tax code, but insiders on Capitol Hill have long believed that project will be an even heavier lift than health care.
And this is a hell of a thing, too—the Donald Himself callls a Washington Post reporter to say that the health care bill is dead.
Great that you didn't lose Obamacare.
It is nothing great compared to a real tax funded healthcare such as the system we have here in Finland but atleast Obamacare is something which may finally reform into a scandinavian style healthcare.
It is nothing great compared to a real tax funded healthcare such as the system we have here in Finland but atleast Obamacare is something which may finally reform into a scandinavian style healthcare.
they've already started blaming democrats but this is a loss for the republicans and for trump.
control of the white house, the house and the senate and they couldn't get this done. the 'art of the deal' indeed.
alasdair
control of the white house, the house and the senate and they couldn't get this done. the 'art of the deal' indeed.
alasdair
Erikmen
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True.
Escher's Waterfall
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I don't think the ACA will ever evolve into a single payer system, but at least the protections are better than what we have.
Cream Gravy?
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Yeah, I would have cancer right now if not for the ACA. No joke. Just skin cancer, but still...
I'm sure I've said that a few times, but I just want to drive the point home that healthcare is a necessity and I'd be in some deep shit, not posting here right now, if it weren't for the Obama era healthcare reform.
I'm sure I've said that a few times, but I just want to drive the point home that healthcare is a necessity and I'd be in some deep shit, not posting here right now, if it weren't for the Obama era healthcare reform.
China Rider
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hi i'm practically a peaceful hippie that has been brainwashed to believe that i lean right when in reality i'm probably a libertarian/down for whatever and here's a few random thoughts i have, unless noted they're self observed/identified
- i think as americans we need to stop crowning the POTUS as some kind of king or guru, it's just one of many power positions in washington
- islam is everything radical liberals want trump to be, you think the middle east just got over the shit we've 'helped' them with for past 40 years? i don't have a solution
- we need a spike in domestic population, a 2nd baby boom would go a long ways, but modern feminists(IMO are digging their own grave) have woman convinced that exhausting themselves to close the grossly exaggerated/imagined wage gap is more important than motherhood
- something needs to be done to make it easier for fathers/mothers to stay together, the absence of a father during adolescence really screws with developing brain and the results more often than not are criminal....not just for the 1 on 1 father son/daughter relationship, but a child needs to witness continuity of a father supporting family and their mother openly loving an entire family
-trump and the media hate each other and it's not going to change(i love him for it, but for the nation, it's not halal, (as the muslims say), people doubling down too hard on the snake oil they're being sold carries serious socioeconomic consequences, the media dictates the size/transparency of the nations peep hole into washington, investing too much in any form of journalism is accepting defeat through deception
-if you find obsessing over your frustrations over trump, you're probably dealing with pretty serious emotional/personal distress, so stop being scared and ask for help
- americans need to recognize we're our own worst enemy and how about we do something about it
- i've been brainwashed into leaning right the same way most people were brainwashed to the left, through humor. during bush years jon stewert was the most powerful person in the media. well the right wing version of the daily show is programs aired over on compound media;online PPV programing, there are no rules....gavin mcinnes and anthony cumia are main two shows that combine comedy with politics, there's other programs that are just comedy/sketch/satire, and god damn does material go against the PC rules of the past 25 years...it's refreshing and i love it
-if trump does fail in a big way, people all over the world are going to suffer, stop rooting for it
-people are interested in politics for silly reasons, they just want to be entertained i guess, if there's one thing wikileaks proves is that most of the policies and practices are best kept classified....respect their privacy, i do believe it's for our protection
- people close to me sucesfully steered me into ''rooting' democrat my entire life up until this race, not because i'm in love with the right, it's because the radical left(mostly young, damaged, misguided people...same problems with radical right) appears(i use that word in jest) to be begging for a civil war....who knows maybe we need one?
- i think as americans we need to stop crowning the POTUS as some kind of king or guru, it's just one of many power positions in washington
- islam is everything radical liberals want trump to be, you think the middle east just got over the shit we've 'helped' them with for past 40 years? i don't have a solution
- we need a spike in domestic population, a 2nd baby boom would go a long ways, but modern feminists(IMO are digging their own grave) have woman convinced that exhausting themselves to close the grossly exaggerated/imagined wage gap is more important than motherhood
- something needs to be done to make it easier for fathers/mothers to stay together, the absence of a father during adolescence really screws with developing brain and the results more often than not are criminal....not just for the 1 on 1 father son/daughter relationship, but a child needs to witness continuity of a father supporting family and their mother openly loving an entire family
-trump and the media hate each other and it's not going to change(i love him for it, but for the nation, it's not halal, (as the muslims say), people doubling down too hard on the snake oil they're being sold carries serious socioeconomic consequences, the media dictates the size/transparency of the nations peep hole into washington, investing too much in any form of journalism is accepting defeat through deception
-if you find obsessing over your frustrations over trump, you're probably dealing with pretty serious emotional/personal distress, so stop being scared and ask for help
- americans need to recognize we're our own worst enemy and how about we do something about it
- i've been brainwashed into leaning right the same way most people were brainwashed to the left, through humor. during bush years jon stewert was the most powerful person in the media. well the right wing version of the daily show is programs aired over on compound media;online PPV programing, there are no rules....gavin mcinnes and anthony cumia are main two shows that combine comedy with politics, there's other programs that are just comedy/sketch/satire, and god damn does material go against the PC rules of the past 25 years...it's refreshing and i love it
-if trump does fail in a big way, people all over the world are going to suffer, stop rooting for it
-people are interested in politics for silly reasons, they just want to be entertained i guess, if there's one thing wikileaks proves is that most of the policies and practices are best kept classified....respect their privacy, i do believe it's for our protection
- people close to me sucesfully steered me into ''rooting' democrat my entire life up until this race, not because i'm in love with the right, it's because the radical left(mostly young, damaged, misguided people...same problems with radical right) appears(i use that word in jest) to be begging for a civil war....who knows maybe we need one?
Escher's Waterfall
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tathra
bluelighter
He's our employee, get it right.
Morninggloryseed
Bluelight Crew
I dont see it as a defeat since I had little faith in the bill anyway, or Paul Ryan. Im glad a bad idea was not implemented; the good stuff didnt happen till later phases. They can get it right down the road, maybe when voters are set to go to the polls again... as costs continue to rise, and choices from the open market dwindle to one awful provider in some areas (like here.)
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