16mg Suboxone per day 5 years to NOTHING! Terrified

[waiting4]

Doctor pulled the plug. I used my last 8mg on Thursday morning. Spent Thursday and This morning looking for alternative doctors/treatment. No luck.

I made another appt. w/doctor for next Thursday, but as you can imagine I don't trust them with my health at this point. (they are only available on Thursdays).

I think I may need some Imodium soon. On hand I have a bottle of T-3s. Some nice scotch. Smokes. Anti-histamines, Excedrin©. Some blood pressure meds (begins with I), and a bundle of h on order if I need it.

I can contact my primary md or go to er if it gets bad. Right now I'm fine--no appetite, tired, anxiety, but manageable.

I'm expecting the worst to set-in soon-or not. i really don't know what to expect and one person said that there is a possibility that i may be "recovered", and NOT HAVE ANY WITHDRAWAL. (I'm not counting on that but I will try and give that a chance ha ha)

I hope that I am not posting in the wrong topic. If-so I can move this to another.

What I'm hoping for is a little advice. Main concerns are heart-attack or dehydration from vomiting and etc. sickness. Once I get that sick, (if ?)--it will be hard to get to a doctor. That's why I'm planning on getting the immodium as soon as I can. So that may help me at least get from a to b.

I'm 50 and have been taking the sub as perscribed for the past 5 years two 8mg per day--(sometimes 3-but no more than 60 per month so I'm considering a stable amount).

I actually started suboxone about a year after it was legal. Withdrew from it twice in those early days so problems may have been from H, Oxy's ...but 1st time that I stopped I was fine, just a weird withdraw and led back to using. (stupid I know). Second time was physically bad. ER. Could not get out of bed. had to throw bed away from body fluids...a mess. OK-Then I was on 2mg for two years but it turned out that my body was in a weird state of constant withdrawal from that and developed bad tachycardia. (heart rhythm problem). So, put on 16mg per day and here I am.

Did I mention that I am terrified? Rambling typing is one of my detox symptoms so I may become chatty. If so I have a story about local resources and trying to find alternative treatment. Lets put it this way. In my state, they collect billions in fines and that money is supposed to be used to help drug addicts. It pays salarys for these places to operate but they are not real helpful from what I've experienced so far. And yeah I am taking names and numbers and I may have a report for the governor's office after this.

Any replies appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Coolwhip]

Do you have access to a methadone clinic? That might be your best bet if you can't get another sub doc to take you on. I don't think any incarnation of the "Thomas method" is going to help very much when your dosage was so high. And you should do a CWE on the T3's, or else you are going to consume way more than a safe dose of APAP in order for the codeine to even be a speed bump for your WD's. But if you end up not being able to find help from a medical professional, you may want to add DXM and PST to the mix since those are quickly available, but don't expect any miracles. And even if you can't get another doctor who deals with addiction to help you out, you should at least explain your situation to a GP and get some clonidine.

Not trying to freak you out even more, but for you the shit is about to hit the fan.

 

[waiting4]

Thank-you so much for the reply. Yep I was at the 2 methadone clinics yesterday. One said no and the other one said no but that I could fill out an application but that by doing so I would be making "work" for them and that by making work for this person I was not going to get any help. Seriously I want to record this BS because I am being 100 per cent honest with these people and hearing nothing but BS. OF course all of who I have talked to say that they do not believe that my doctor could cut me off like that-(for non payment. I didn't have my fee.They are not a private doctor and they even have a sign that says that they cannot refuse to see someone. Perfect urine tests for over five years etc.)

Physically I am doing fine for now. Waiting for it to set-in. It has been since Thursday morning and this is Saturday afternoon. I'm guessing that I had a large build-up in my system and that it hasn't even started to dissipate yet. I can only hope that any withdrawal symptoms like vomiting, heart-rhythm, are as insidious. Still no appetite but I am able to eat.

I'm going to look up PST. The other thing is that I am in the acute phase of menopause right now. So--I am hoping that with that and the length that I have been taking the suboxone stably that may affect the effects? What I mean is that due to the menopause, I have already been having extreme insomnia for the past six months. Also--I've had menopausal hot-flashes, (not the kind of hot-flash from the suboxone- a little different). Since Thursday, I have had my 1st two nights of "real" sleep that I've had in a looong time.

Don't worry I am not deluding myself, just hoping and trying not to panic. I will update here unless this thread is moved. I posted here because it looked like some people here knew what they are talking about. I have been in other forums but so many stupid recommendations.....

 

[sekio]

this is not advanced discusssion.

 

[waiting4]

I'm a little bit lost here Sekio. Can you please point me in the right direction if this is not the correct?

I also called one other methadone clinic but they would not make an appointment for me and tried to mess with my mind with nonsense. That is what pretty much every "expert" or paid professional has done so far and I have contacted quite a few since Thursday. I also discovered that in my state the fines charged by courts for driving offenses and misdemeanors are what pay the salary and costs for Drug treatment. These people do not know that I have friends in the governor's office so at this point I am taking names. I just hope that my report is coherent, and that I survive to tattle-tale on these jerks.

DXM-I'm confused. So would it help the suboxone come off my receptors faster, or help it stay on longer??? That doesn't really matter, what matters most to myself is not dying. And stomach issues. I have not been to the drug store yet, that's my goal for later today since I'm thinking that it could get to a point where i cannot leave the house except to go to the ER. And I still apparently have a window of time to stock up. Some Robitussin and Imodium on hand? And would the two counteract? I cannot do a CWE. So I'd probably use no more than 2 of the T3s. But I'm actually trying to avoid other opiates at this point just in case I am able to get back on the Suboxone.

 

[Coolwhip]

PST is poppy seed tea, poppy pod tea would be much, much better but you can't exactly get those in a hurry(gotta order them online). You need them in bulk from a place where they sell them loose buy the pound, not just containers from a grocery store.(think whole foods, health food stores, a co-op, etc.). And DXM is dextromethorphan, look for gel caps not cough syrup since you want DXM to be the only active ingredient and most the syrups have other stuff in them. And maybe this isn't a common experience, but avoid caffeine at all costs once your WDs start, it seems like a good idea because you want the energy but it's always made it so so so much worse for me.

And if you can, find something different than antihistamines for sleeping, they always made my RLS and akathisia worse during WD's. Try to get some benzos or z-drugs. The only other thing I can think of that might help is black seed oil which you can find at middle eastern grocery stores.

I feel really sorry for you, and hope you can find some way to make it through this. Good luck.

edit: ADD is for theoretical drug discussion, Sekio has already moved your thread to the proper area, you don't have to do anything else.

Nothing that you or I have mentioned are going to affect the clearance rate of the buprenorphine(besides maybe messing with liver enzymes a little bit). And the only things that actually hit the the mu-receptors would be the codeine(pro-drug for morphine) and the immodium which is a peripheral MOR agonist(doesn't cross the brain blood barrier). And of course poppy seed tea, which will contain some small amount of opioid alkaloids(like codeine and morphine). Everything else are just "comfort meds", they can help with the symptoms of withdrawal but have no direct effect on it. And while wanting to avoid taking any more MOR agonists is noble goal I really think you should consider doing a cold water extraction on those T3s because 2 or 3 probably isn't going to do shit and you are going to be hurting, I would at least do the CWE on the codeine before resorting to getting more dope(as mentioned in your first post). But when you are coming off that huge a dose of bupe(which is an extremely potent partial agonist) anything besides other powerful recreational opiates is just going to be like sticking your finger in the leaking dike.

Generally, if you aren't in poor health and aren't a poly-drug addict, even extremely severe opiate withdrawals aren't fatal it's just about doing what you can to maintain your sanity and decrease your pain until they are over. I'd really try to get some clonidine from your family doc, its going to help more than anything besides more MOR agonists or maybe benzos and its not a drug of abuse so your doctor shouldn't be to reluctant to prescribe it.(assuming you don't already have low blood pressure or heart problems or something.)

And I guess I should add a disclaimer that I am in no way trained or qualified to be giving you or anyone medical advice, I'm just another junkie.

 

[Zerrr]

I dont know where you live, I live in America and this is what I would do if I were in ur situation.
(This is not a recommendation really, just what I would do)

1. Id try to get some form of opiate/oid. (pref heroin)
2. At the same time Id be calling detox places trying to reserve bed for tomorrow
(If this works- take heroin, wait for withdrawal, then take methadone they give you) Most likely the first 24-48 hours would be miserable cause the dose of methadone would be so low, eventually ud get enough in ur system.

If 1&2 are not an option-

3. Id got to the ER and tell them your exact situation. As long as you don't run into some asshole you should at least get clonidine and valium/ativan

4. some variation of the above

wish you well.

 

[waiting4]

Thank-you Seiko! I don't consider myself sober here but it is a great goal.
Actually I do tend to have ultra low BP and body temp as well. So if I ever am ill, I practically have to get a blood test to look for germs because "sick"-my vitals actually look normal, (compared to what they usually are).
But in withdrawl one of my symptoms is tachycardia. So once that sets-in my BP could be all over the place.
I hate that this is the weekend so it is looking like I may have to go to ER and then hopefully they will transfer me to the detox unit. If it gets bad. The inpatient places that I called said that they use suboxone to DETOX people and that they DO NOT detox people from suboxone. One that I chatted with online said that if my insurance was good that they would send me a plane ticket for California--but then I was looking at TMZ and the top story was an actress who was in a California rehab who was not given medical withdrawl for her alcohol addiction and she died. (I took that as a sign).
The other place said that I need 14 grand upfront-for a nice comfy medicated detox. I don't have that.
So it looks to me like it could go as far as 96 hours before I feel real bad. Probably sooner. If I make it through the weekend I think that I'll have a better chance of having more options. Right now i am just pretty lethargic. And I had a really nice nap. Going psychotic would probably be a blessing, but so far I cannot wish myself into that state.
Thanks for the tip about caffeine. But yeah I don't want to withdraw from that too so I have to have a little of that.
The rls didn't start yet and i was planning on using antihistamine for that. So ty, I will remember that.

 

[neversickanymore]

Hey waiting for.. sorry you find yourself in this mess and welcome to BL.. greedy pain and addiction Drs.. seems like allot of that going around. Are you in the states? >How to Complain About Your Doctor< another thing is that if you are in the states acess to your medical records is your right.. just make an official request for you records and they have to provide them to you in a timely fashion, then you can look through them and see what that Dr put down as the reason you were cut as a patient and bring these to any future appointment to facilitate faster care. IDK something doesn't seem to be adding up, I mean why are all these places refusing you service?

By blood pressure medication do you mean clonidine? The medications I would get to promote the most comfortable and quickest withdrawal are clonidine >here 2< and a drug like nuerotonin >here< >here< >here< other drugsfor the Restless legs syndrom>here<.

You can do this.. seven years is a long long time to be on subs.. maybe look at this a the door to a whole new life because it could be.

The addition of loperamide will help with the withdrawals in the short term but it will ultimately cause you to stay in acutes for a longer time and many people I see just become physically dependent on them.. so I would not use any opiat at all.. and yes lope does cross the blood brain barrier but is broken down to quick to facilitate a "high" but not before it antagonizes the opiat receptors, and the key to getting out of acute withdrawal and physical dependence at some point is not to antagonize these receptors ever.

 

[waiting4]

TY neversick! Yes my DR. who retired said that he used Clonidine for 20 years to detox his patients. I was unable to take it because of my low BP, but once I am in Withdrawl I will probably be allowed. I am planning on complaining to the practice/office also my GP is there so he will I hope want to talk to the sub doctor and ask her what the F. It was an outstanding bill for one visit-(which I have done before-not too often), and I did not have the full payment for that visit.
I don't want to get this doctor in a lot of trouble because she has been OK, but I think she just had some personal probs. of her own that made her stick to whatever boundaries she has. She did warn me before that she is never available on weekends but I sure did not think that meant fridays either because I called on Friday and by that time I had the payment and she never returned my call.

And the medicine that I have on hand is Inderal (propranolol). I'm wondering if that would work as well?

I could also use some prayers here if anyone is inclined.
The best outcome would be that I could just stay home and this crap would eeek out of my system and then I would only have to deal with cravings. If it doesn't get too intense that is my intention and why I am holding-out on the T3's or the half roxy that is right next to my desk. Seriously if I make it to day 10 I will dispose of that. I have 9 days without subs as my benchmark because I heard somewhere that it shows in the urine for that long or something like that.

And the menopausal hot-flashes are worse than anything that any drug withdrawl will throw at a person, so I'm immune to that at this point it just doesn't bother me.

 

[neversickanymore]

As it blocks the receptors of epinephrin I would assume that it does as many of the withdrawal symptoms are directly related to adrenalyn and clonidine is used to prevent the release of norepinephrine. So if the Inderal is preventing its reception and clonodine is preventing its release I would think that the Inderal would help. I detoxed off a large methadone, roxy, and xanax habit and received beneficial results from the clonidine so if this is something you can eventually use i would try it. So are you then able to get your script filled on monday?


EDIT: prayers sent

 

[waiting4]

No I am not able to get any suboxone for sure 'till thursday. As far as I know that is the only day that my doctor is in and I made an appt. for next thurs. when they refused me last Thurs. If I am not deathly ill by then-I really don't want any. And if i have to take some other opiate, well, then I have to deal with precipitated withdrawals or avoiding that.

If I get a hold of the practice office maybe they will contact her-she has a separate office from the main GP. Another prob. I am having is trying to switch doctors. The methadone program had some 30-day rule (where you have to be out of another dr.s practice for 30 days)-and I said well it has been exactly 30 days and they said no, your prescription just ran out and the clock starts ticking there. I know that I am hearing a lot of bs from these "professionals", but this is what they are saying. Also they are telling me that I could not be refused for financial but the dr would have seen me on thurs. if I had the payment then.

 

[neversickanymore]

red tape.. need to find a way to cut that shit.

best way to cut it is decide to quit and set yourself free

 

[waiting4]

And ty neversick for sending prayer. Ha ha-yeah the red-tape is crazy. My parents were/are still involved in a red-tape nightmare from hurricane Sandy, (direct hit from storm house was under-water) so when I told them my dilemma they were skeptical but after my mom tried to call my dr they believed me.

 

[neversickanymore]

well so your last dose was thursday rite.. you should have like a three or four day window until the withdrawal start for real. so maybe monday.. then about ten or so days of acutes.. wont be that bad if you can get the correct meds.. but then I fear your paws might be significant as you have been on maintenance for so long.. but you will have to do it sometime if you ever want to get free.. if you switch back to the H.. you will need to be careful and not rely on the subs protecting you so much.. and remember everyday you will loose some of the protection of the bupe so you will have to adjust your dose.. man why not just jump off?

 

[waiting4]

Yes-that is what I am hoping for the most. Just jumping off. If that is possible. I'm thinking that if I can hold out til Monday, and if it seems like I need some sub. I should be able to get someone to phone some in for me or just see another dr. Really jumping is what I would like to be able to do, but everyone says "taper" is the way to go.
I've already decided that if it has to be a taper that I'll have my mom hold it for me-she is like a demon when it comes to being tough.
I still have my drug-addict mentality so that is a problem for me, but I'm looking at my past years of treatment as somewhat of a "success", as far as treatment goes. Even though it was always my intention to taper myself down, (and I quit trying to do that a long time ago)-----I actually was using as prescribed. If that makes sense.

 

[T. Calderone]

Sorry to hear that you're getting jacked around, especially at two methadone clinics. Try not to go back to the H if you can help it. For now just try the immodium and inderal. What would happen if you just showed up at the doctor's office Monday? They must have other doctors there that can help you because they have your physical records. It is terrible that they won't accommodate you after all these years.

If you start feeling really poorly before then, the emergency department would be my next option. I'm hoping that your blood-pressure meds will help. I think clonidine might work better since it's an alpha 2 agonist and would help with possible tremors besides blood pressure. Where the Inderal is a non-selective beta blocker (different class of drugs) which mainly addresses heart rate and blood pressure.

The menopausal thing sucks completely on it's own. When I was using oxys heavily, I went 13 months with no period so my OB assumed I was going through the change. Put me on hormone replacement because the sweats were so bad I had to change nightshirts sometimes 2-3 times a night. Then when I dropped down to Percocet, the periods came back like nothing happened and all those symptoms went away, go figure! This was seven years ago and I was just 42.

Don't hesitate to go to the ER if you feel it's too intense. On Monday be a squeaky-ass wheel because you know they get the grease unfortunately. I really feel lots of these doctors have no good education on suboxone. To just drop you like this with no taper is inhumane in my opinion. I hope you can get some resolution soon, just hang in there!

 

[waiting4]

Yes-now that I have looked it up it appears that Clonodine would be safer for me and the other bp meds are not indicated unless I am in Tacycardia. At that point I should really see a doctor anyway.
The idea that my period could return over this did occur to me since this is a major shock to my system. That would really suck! But I'm pretty sure that I'm over that. The waiting and wondering is just nuts on its own. I don't seriously feel like much of it at all has cleared out of my system yet. (from Thursday am). But I am thankful that I have made it this far. My pupils are still on the smallish side but not pinned like they normally are for myself.-So I'm using that as a gage. Also, I have not sneezed once yet and that will be another signal for me that the detox is officially started.
I really would not mind going inpatient for 21 or so days to get a proper medically monitored detox. If I could find somewhere that i could afford etc.

 

[waiting4]

By the way the pain that initially got me started on abusing opiates is something that i have seen mentioned elsewhere in this forum. It is a condition that actually is NOT helped by narcotics-(as far as I could tell), but it took a long time to diagnose. the thing is called Trigeminal Neuralgia -a facial nerve pain that can masquerade as tooth nerve pain. Well they did root canals on almost every single one of my teeth and then said it was probably TN.

When I found out that was what i had, "Dr Google" and online resources said that it would only come and go-(it did), and get progressively WORSE-it did, with basically no treatment for the pain or cure except maybe surgery. And that there was a brain operation to cut the nerve but that since it is a brain operation, it was risky. I was still experiencing the TN for a few years on the Suboxone but then it went away completely. I am afraid that it could come back but I really don't think that it will. Since i had had shingles many years ago in that same area on my face, it was probably from that. The thing there was that nerve damage pain from shingles is only supposed to last for five or so years after having shingles, and this was way after that-over ten years past that. but it was in the same area and at the time that I had shingles and even when I was a kid and had chicken pox, the sores were inside my ear--so it seems that area was "prone" or the virus was living on those facial nerves?
Anyways--I'm just posting this here in case anyone is suffering from TN. There really isn't much you can do but wait-out an attack, and once I saw a photo of the nerve involved putting pressure on the skin above the nerve seemed to help. But-please don't believe everything that they say online. They make it look hopeless and almost suggest that a bullet is the only cure--(yeah if you have this that thought occurs during an attack but I even worked through some of it it is survivable). --But my point is that in my case it did not just keep getting worse. It did for a few years but I have been in remission from it for much longer than anything that I was able to find online said. Once i saw an image of the Trigeminal nerve and I thought that i could feel it spazzing when I was having an attack of the pain, and all I could do was put pressure there with my hand or ice-pack, and soon after that it did not come back. So did the shingle nerve damage heal? I don't know-it should not have been shingle-pain. But that is what happened to me not what was predicted.

 

[neversickanymore]

The neurontin may help with this as well as the withdrawal.. and actually I had really good luck with methadone for neurological pain, but the analgesic properties of methadone only last 4-8 hours so it has to be redosed as such. I know just how bad nerve pain can be and I hope you find an answer. check out the link on the neurontin as it is commonly used for nerve pain and works much better for most than narcotics. >here<