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12 step discussion thread Voice your opinions here!

neversickanymore, I enjoy reading your posts and your determination is admirable.

For me, abstinence is the only purpose of my program, period.
Everything else stays in play and we have to deal with it.

I understand the need for a "raft" for some people,
but I myself am of a different mind regarding Truth,
and I cannot make myself subscribe to a dogma that
I honestly feel (self-deception aside ;)) that I have seen through.

IMO, when you regain the ability to decisively exercise your Will
and can truly walk humbly on your own two feet it is time to head for the door.

You have your whole life in front of you, good luck.
Stay sober, friend.
 
crimsonjunk said:
Sounds to me like you have a good mindset. Just try and stay away from the opiates as its extremely difficult to just fo those occasionally
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That would be my only goal. The same mindset would have to apply as to alcohol.
With Opiates it would be a leash held out to about twice per month, period.
I don't know if I could do it.

Plus, I'm not 100% clear where the idea to use again is coming from, seems very suspicous to me.
I'm a very busy guy, doing things I love, so how would I benefit from investing the time it takes to get fucked up and feel OK for a couple hours?


michael said:
any time you use to self medicate away negative feelings is a step in the wrong direction.

i will also say this (and i think it's extremely important coming from the viewpoint of addiction) - as soon as you start laying ground rules about usage you are opening the door towards sliding back into an active addiction.
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This is my fear as well. I do know that if you were going to try to use occasionally you would have the proper documents from the Central Scrutinizer and agree to having ground rules that would be self-enforced. It would be kind of like a scheduled in advance, self-supervised visit. =D

Planning well in advance is the only way I can see that might work (like lsd; you don't just say "I'm sad, so I'm going to go take me some lsd right now)...

You might say, "I'm an adult, I'm can exercise Control over my craving, and two weeks from today I'm going to have 2 beers, and then wait two weeks not drinking at all and have two more. Once I've accomplished that I will have an intelligent conversation with myself and plan the following month, sticking to the plan when it comes up."

The problem with me is that the moment that you alter your mind with an intoxicant, you alter your Balance of Power.
You would want to keep a close eye on Pure Craving's antics, by not letting yourself get too intoxicated.

Now that I've thought it through, I think it is better to learn to enjoy life without intoxicants if at all possible.

Living Dangerously doesn't like that idea however, boring! :sus:

Still, it seems easier (and more pleasant) to just forget about using as opposed to constantly discussing it inside my head.
 
How have you been able to deal with the root issues? Do you find being aware of them is enough or that specific changes are required?
 
dillpickles said:
How have you been able to deal with the root issues? Do you find being aware of them is enough or that specific changes are required?
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What I've realized is that I was born with ADD which manifested itself into a disease of "more." Whether it was candy, hockey cards, or video games, the mental obsession was so great that I would often think about these things (they changed all the time). I enjoyed drugs because they became something I could obsess about. Marijuana in particular was my entire world during high school. Alcohol soon after. the trouble began when I started with the opiates.

What I've done is abuse drugs so many times, drink to excess and make bad decisions so many times, take my prescriptions improperly so many times. And I think the reason I truly believe that I will be able to enjoy alcohol responsibly is because I refuse to drink like an alcoholic under any circumstance. In the past I would walk into the liquor store, but an Old English, then proceed to the nearest bathroom on campus to chug it and ditch the bottle. Now instead of that, I go to the bar, have a couple, and listen to my body. I've found that usually after a couple pints I'm feeling really full, and although I know i'd feel more buzzed/tipsy if I had a 3rd, that is no longer the goal. The goal is to get more out of alcohol then it's got out of me, which I believe shows a level of maturity I've attained through hard work, making mistakes, and never giving up. Now that I worked out the root causes of my depression and realized why I was anxious/depress/unhappy, I don't self-medicate anymore. The most important thing I've learned is to never rely on any drug to lean on when I'm feeling down or depressed. I reached a place of maturity and love for myself where I no longer want to sabotage my own life messing around with hard drugs or acting like an alcoholic/addict. I know that I will always have an addictive personality, but instead of throwing in the towel and admitting I'm an alcoholic like AA wants me to. I'm finding balance in my life that is all about the grey area and moderation. Which in the past never would have been possible until I had a spiritual awakening which changed my heart and made me realize that I no longer want to screw myself over. Thats the best way I can describe it, and I did go to an AA meeting today and didn't feel even a tinge of guilt because I'm on my journey and I don't care if it doesn't look the same as the other people in the room.
 
Get2Think said:
Well the title says it all. Here is a little about me, I'm 27, and have been an addict my entire life. For the last 6 months I have been bone-dry from alcohol, mostly do to my circumstances. I progressed from weed at 16 to shrooms, to trying the harder stuff, and eventually got a love-affair with opiates. For these last 6-months I have gone to AA and admitted that I was an alcoholic. Now I drank heavily and would drink alcoholically for many years. But I was never a real alcoholic. How do I know that? Because I was the same way with pot, cigarettes, coke, anything. If I had a pack of cigarette's I would smoke every last one of those suckers even though I didn't want to.

So I'm an addict. I know that. And the last six months I've grown to become a really mature adult and I'm soon to finish my bachelors degree and relocate. The thing is, I am thirsty. I'm tired of everyone knowing about my addiction problems and being defined by them. I'm tired of AA, the steps, Bill wilson, etc. When I relocate I'm considering not going to AA at all because I don't want to have that reputation and stigma and honestly I just don't want my whole life to be about recovery and the 10 years of abuse. But thats what young people do anyways, I just let opiates ruin my life a couple of times. I have never relapsed because of alcohol, it's always drugs, esp. benzos.

So I guess my question is, have any of you been able to drink wine or beer and smoke pot occasionally without it ruining your life and leading you back to hard drugs and that cycle of misery. I want to be able to enjoy a bottle of wine at home watching a movie alone. I want to be able to drink beer on the golf course, enjoying the hot sun. I don't want AA and sober people to be everything my life is about. I'm very religious and rely on God to keep me sober, but I know that drinking again is taking a risk. I'm just over this negatively extreme way of thinking that I have a fucking disease and that I'll never be able to enjoy drinking again. I so so wish I were Italian or French and able to drink wine throughout the day and it's totally normal. I get a lot of enjoyment out of drinking and it's always the hard stuff and drugs that ruin it. I'm afraid that if I start drinking again I will eventually want to do my drug of choice, opiates.

If I could just drink wine/beer in the evenings and still have my career and be independent from AA that would be all I could ask for in life. I can't do that right now because my parents will kick me out of the house and I won't finish college. But once I get some independence and am able to live life my way, I think I'm going to incorporate wine/beer back into the picture and just make ground rules that I have to stick to. No more buying cheap 40oz. no more early drinking, etc. Just cut out all the alcoholic behavior and drink responsibly like an adult. I need success stories from you BL'ers.
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If you wanna go get drunk or high do it. Dont sit around and make excuses and blame it on this and that, you wanna get fucked up your an addict thats normal, theres no need to justify your use. Dont blame it on the program, you're the one at fault here. The program is there to simply provide guidance, not tell you what to do. Only you have the power over your decisions. Good luck to you, in my opinion you just made a really bad choice, you may be able to control your use for a few weeks or a few months but eventually you will fall back into the deep dark hole of addiction and back to your DOC, I've been through the same cycle over and over. You're an addict you can't complain about how it is'nt fair that you cant just have a few beers at the golf course or a glass of champagne at the wedding, thats just reality. If you could use sucessfully now, why couldn't you do it in the past? Whats any different about this time? Im not trying to rip on you, Im just calling it how I see it.
 
I couldn't use responsibly in the past because I wasn't a responsible person with regards to anything, not just drugs/alcohol. How am I blaming AA? And no the program does tell people what to do, calling it guidance, when really their attitude is if you don't do what we say you will definitly relapse. You may be right about falling back to my DOC and the deep hole of addiction but God has removed that desire from me and if I had heroin/opiates right in front of me I would chuck it into the trash. AA doesn't understand that people, even addicts, change and outgrow their DOC. And your experience doesn't have to be mine pleasantly, what happened to you doesn't need to happen to me because I've changed. A lot is different this time, and I left AA because they wanted to pigeon-hole me into something I knew I had risen above. I've evolved from a careless immature addict to a much wiser responsible addict. And now that I know I'm not an alcoholic, I can focus on staying far far away from the harmful drugs which were always what ruined my life to begin with. Being able to drink and smoke pot on rare occasions is enough for me to be content, and I see no sense in throwing the baby (alcohol) out with the bathwater(hard drugs).Only time will tell but the significant paradigm shift that I've undergone cannot be denied and I no longer feel that I need AA.

What I do need is to continue facing my problems head on, never self-medicating, and addressing my ADD. The drinking and drugging was just a symptom of the disease. Saying that because I am choosing to incorporate alcohol back into my healthy lifestyle will certainly lead to being a junkie again is not something I believe and at the end of the day what works for me doesn't have to make sense to anyone but me.
 
Get2Think said:
I couldn't use responsibly in the past because I wasn't a responsible person with regards to anything, not just drugs/alcohol. How am I blaming AA? And no the program does tell people what to do, calling it guidance, when really their attitude is if you don't do what we say you will definitly relapse. You may be right about falling back to my DOC and the deep hole of addiction but God has removed that desire from me and if I had heroin/opiates right in front of me I would chuck it into the trash. AA doesn't understand that people, even addicts, change and outgrow their DOC. And your experience doesn't have to be mine pleasantly, what happened to you doesn't need to happen to me because I've changed. A lot is different this time, and I left AA because they wanted to pigeon-hole me into something I knew I had risen above. I've evolved from a careless immature addict to a much wiser responsible addict. And now that I know I'm not an alcoholic, I can focus on staying far far away from the harmful drugs which were always what ruined my life to begin with. Being able to drink and smoke pot on rare occasions is enough for me to be content, and I see no sense in throwing the baby (alcohol) out with the bathwater(hard drugs).Only time will tell but the significant paradigm shift that I've undergone cannot be denied and I no longer feel that I need AA.

What I do need is to continue facing my problems head on, never self-medicating, and addressing my ADD. The drinking and drugging was just a symptom of the disease. Saying that because I am choosing to incorporate alcohol back into my healthy lifestyle will certainly lead to being a junkie again is not something I believe and at the end of the day what works for me doesn't have to make sense to anyone but me.
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Sounds like you met the wrong people, my sponsor never told me what to do he just offers his experience to me, I choose to take it or leave it. I find it hard to believe you can go from an irresponsible addict to a responsible adult in 6 months. If you werent trying to justify your use you wouldnt have come here and make a thread to ask for other peoples approval to make it seem like a better idea. If you want to go get drunk do it, im not trying to tell you what to do, im just talking from my experience and the experience of many other addicts I've met. Just because you can handle it now doesnt mean things wont change in the future, im just trying to save you the trouble of going back down that road, nothing good comes out of addiction. It seems like your experiencing euphoric recall, you're not remembering all the baggage that came with the good times. Its not a fact that people grow out of there DOC, thats just your opinion, even if you did why risk changing to another drug and getting addicted to that? You're in a very dangerous spot right now if you think you've already beaten addiction, I know many people including myself who get cocky and before they know it there right back to where they started. No one wants to give up drugs or alcohol, I still miss them everyday but I know that eventually things will get out of hand again if I start using. Its not easy to let them go, its like losing the love of your life. Im not preaching NA or AA, everyone can believe what they want, theres plenty of other options out there for recovery based programs other than NA or AA.
 
I didn't go from irresponsible addict to responsible adult in 6 months, more like 3 years of hard work, failures, finding what works and doesn't work for me. Recovery is a long process, but the last 6 months finally revealed what I had been striving after for so long. Please stop posting in my thread. Your opinion that I'm doomed to fail is why I left AA, it's such a defeatest/negative attitude and I'm sorry you can't drink moderately but I can so get off your AA soap box and go be pessimistic in some other thread.
 
this
Space Firebird said:
I'm not into AA at all.
I went with Rational Recovery.

It's up to you, and you alone, whether you are going to use or not.
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fuck AA. fuck being "diseased." the mind does not contract diseases. sobriety is a choice in the exact same way you choose to become addicted.
 
^ It just doesn't work for you, but it works for many other people. Also, certain drugs when abused at an addictive rate do cause changes in the brain that make it very difficult to quit (E.g Methamphetamine), so it technically can be considered a disease, but some people just use that as an excuse. It's one thing calling it a disease but it really all depends on whether that person is taking responsibility for their actions or not.


Just remember, once you feed the monkey again he comes back twice as hungry and twice as angry. Approach with caution. Whether or not you need AA is completely up to you, and has been said, it is just a guidance program.
 
Pleasantly Opiated.

You know what having slept on this I feel like this was an inapropriate thing for me to say. I know pleasantly is just trying to be straight forward and not sugar coat anything because he actually gives a shit. So pleasantly, I apologize for lashing out on you the way I did friend. You may be right, maybe my leaving AA was a huge mistake.
 
@Get2Think, I'm glad you wrote that. I was just thinking about how all the either/or, black and white thinking shortchanges the mind. I've learned that when I actually can force myself to listen to another point of view, especially one I have strong feelings about, I usually get something out of it whether I agree or not. At the very least, people deserve their own opinions. The whole issue of recovery is so difficult to navigate. Resistance to change is a huge part of it, but how does one know when it is defensive resistance to a good idea or a sane response to a bad idea? IMO, there is simply no one right way to frame it; it is individual and personal. I can see a parallel in how different people view mental illness or mental disorders. You can either accept the labels or reject the whole paradigm that makes (and profits on) the labels but in the end it all comes down to you being able to change and manage your own behavior. If it helps for one person to see their circumstances as illness and another to completely reject that assessment, who are we to take away each others strategies for healing?
 
Get2Think said:
Pleasantly Opiated.

You know what having slept on this I feel like this was an inapropriate thing for me to say. I know pleasantly is just trying to be straight forward and not sugar coat anything because he actually gives a shit. So pleasantly, I apologize for lashing out on you the way I did friend. You may be right, maybe my leaving AA was a huge mistake.
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See this is what cults do they brainwash you to believe that you will die without them. Live your life dude. Live your life.
 
neversickanymore said:
Here is a paper exploring AA and brainwashing/cult found through California State University...

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/aacultbk01.htm
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I've been in AA awhile now, sober for 2 years, and I was thinking about the cult-like aspects recently. That article was really interesting, but in the long run, I really kind of believe that "my brain needed washing thing." For the most part, the people I know in AA went from liars, thieves or worse who were depressed, angry, suicidal and homicidal, and are now mostly good people. Not perfect, sure, but better than they were be for an trying to get better every day.

So, yeah, my addiction hurt me a lot more than AA has.
 
It doesn't matter how you do it as long as you do it.

AA only bugs me for two reasons:

1). On some levels it strikes me as being kind of the "procrastinator's club."

But now that I think about it, I think that says more about some of the members
than the techniques of the system.

2). It has undertones of the aspects of society that I consider to be fucked up, Ie: the Nanny State.

People get forced into it against their will, it is self-fulfilling prophecy, as well as a self proliferating source
of funding and social control. It is also a great place to hang out telling folks what a victim you are.

The court ordering a person into a 12 step progam is not going to cause that person to make
the decision in their heart to become a different person.

It takes away people's sense of free will and independence.
I am nothing, if not fiercely independent.


That said, it does many good things and has helped countless people,
so, in sum, it is still a good thing, IMO.
 
^ It's actually a really bad place to go around telling people what a victim you are. Fastest way to get stuck talking to an old-timer about gratitude, let me tell ya.
 
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