Harm Reduction ⫸Should I Try HEROIN?⫷

[Ketamania]

Sorry this isn't following the flow of conversation, I just had my first IV drug use situation recently I wanted to share.

I didn't try heroin, but I tried IV Subutex.

Subutex is much more potent than heroin and it is what Dr's prescribe to get people off heroin (for those that are unfamiliar). It holds heroin withdrawls (WD's) at bay.

However, certain forms of Subutex can be snorted, injected, and boofed. I've been snorting Subs for a long time now, and I got really curious with the needle. I've always been a person that has been curious about heroin, but has had it on my "no no" list. So I thought, "okay, a sub is fine then".

No, no it was not. Subutex is stronger than heroin, just not as euphoric since it is a partial opioid-antagonist unlike heroin where it is a full antagonist of the opioid receptors. This doesn't mean it's still not addicting however.

I finally get what everyone is talking about now. At first I was pleased by the high, but then it was like, "okay, now what, that was kinda lame for injecting it and all that effort". So even though it was lame, get this: I STILL HAVE A MASSIVE CRAVING.

My fiance found my rig set and threw it all out, no questions asked. Sucks, but it's for the best. A person who was a bad influence on me whom I was hanging out with taught me how to do it safely and stuff at least.

I really do wish I never injected. It's a false sense of euphoria (I mean it is euphoric, but you always want more and you're never satisfied, idk hard to explain) and is exceedingly dangerous.

 

[dalpat077]

Many people are ashamed of this shit, and don't just blurt it out to everyone

This an important point and something I've also been thinking about of late (it's becoming apparent I've way too much time on my hands to think! ).

Stigmatization of use and addiction is a problem. And from what I gather: it's a big factor when it comes to kicking the shit if that's a point that an addict has reached and wishes to put it behind them.

Problem: how do you destigmatize something without desensitizing people to something (and the latter which could easily be misconstrued as encouraging)?

Like I said: apparently too much time to think about shit! Then again and in my defense: not like I have anybody else that shares my overall interest in narcotics and pharmaceuticals etc. The (very few) people that I know in real life couldn't be bothered, have no interest in the topics, and have the typical societal knee jerk reaction when it comes to such things. So ya'll just have to put up with my shit! Sorry!

 

[gyp0]

My main concern is that by the time BPD people are desperate enough to start putting heroin up their arm they're not far from deciding just to check out permanently anyway, which could even happen subconsciously "accidentally" and suicidality is a valid concern with BPD people.

And, call me paranoid if you want, I don't trust any government not to do a cost benefit analysis and realise that it's cheaper to kill these people off with punitive drug legislation and lack of support than it is to include them in our brave new world.



So, again, If you watch that video and think "hrmm that does seem rather familiar" Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT fuck about with opiates. The only good that could possibly come of it is that you would find your way into a 12 step support group with other people like yourself and you could do that anyway without the wrenching addiction. Join a porn addiction group or something.

 

[gyp0]

It sounds like you would be among the 20-30% of people who would become addicted after regular use of heroin. The research points to co-morbid illnesses such as BPD and stressful environments (i.e. war, economic recession, ruptured family, abusive relationships) as being the real drivers of addiction.

However, 70-80% of people might be legitimately interested in experiencing the euphoric rush of heroin and they are at no more risk than if they were trying LSD, psilocybin, MDMA, or other drugs.

Fine but the sort of people who aren't going to get addicted are the sort of people who have better things to do so people for whom the use is likely to be problematic are over represented in the group of people who would even consider it.

As Professor Carl Hart says:

"...I have been studying drugs for 22 years, 14 years at Columbia, and we have quite a bit of scientific, evidence-based information. And I am here to tell you, drugs are not the bogeyman that people said they were...

I agree but the facts about society that bring about the problematic drug laws in the first place are unlikely to change in our lifetimes so don't take up a ruinous addiction on the assumption that your fellow man is, any minute now, about to come to his senses and treat you with rational enlightened humanity.

 

[dalpat077]

I agree but the facts about society that bring about the problematic drug laws in the first place are unlikely to change in our lifetimes so don't take up a ruinous addiction on the assumption that your fellow man is, any minute now, about to come to his senses and treat you with rational enlightened humanity.

Now THAT, the above, is spot on the mark and noteworthy. Not to mention very eloquently expressed. For better or for worse: that is reality.

 

[Olivia Nicole]

...the facts about society that bring about the problematic drug laws in the first place are unlikely to change in our lifetimes...

If Portugal can change, so can every other country.

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

If Portugal can change, so can every other country.

Yes, you would think so.

But unfortunately, British politics doesn't quite work that way for some reason. We have a coke snorting, adulterous, lying, fat fuckin fuckwit for a PM and yet people still vote for the cunt.


It's our people that need to change first.



I imagine a scene from the film 'If' where the whole of middle England are confined into a small space where they can be eliminated en mass.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I agree but the facts about society that bring about the problematic drug laws in the first place are unlikely to change in our lifetimes so don't take up a ruinous addiction on the assumption that your fellow man is, any minute now, about to come to his senses and treat you with rational enlightened humanity.

I think that you're underestimating the potential for change re: drugs/drug law. In fact over the past ten years there has been a large amount of change regarding drugs and the social perception of drug abuse. Cannabis is obviously the big one...10 years ago I would have said that cannabis would never become legal during my lifetime...when I was in high school there was not only a possibility but a probability that you'd be taken to jail if a cop found cannabis on you, and I lived in one of the more "tolerant" states regarding weed.

Just to be clear, this is not to draw any kind of direct comparison between cannabis and heroin, only to illustrate the point that these supposedly stable conceptions of drugs and drug law can shift dramatically. Similar shifts in perspective can be seen regarding other classes of drugs over the past ten years. Not long ago at all I would've said that someone whose a mainstream academic coming out and say "I heroin!" would've been career suicide, and yet Carl Hart came out and did just that...he violated the taboo and I think we're all better for it, despite my disagreements with Hart on certain matters

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

Such an intelligent, well-reasoned perspective! I don't know why anyone who supports the HR philosophy wouldn't look upon Portugal's experiment with optimism

 

[dalpat077]

If Portugal can change, so can every other country.

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

I was wondering how long it would take you to chime in again!

Just an observation:

Somewhere around here is a link to an article or paper in where it is mentioned that there are more addicts in rehabfacilities than historically. I do knot know if that is as a result of there being more addicts or if addicts are now receiving the aid that they need. Could even be both. It is late here now but I will try find it tomorrow.

Guess all I’m saying is that I’ve noticed Portugal and a very few other countries constantly being referenced as success stories. And I’m not questioning that. But it’s not the free-for-all that’s it’s made out to be i.e. restrictions do still apply. And that little nugget is usually omitted. I guess also it depends largely on the broadness of the definition of success.

But I agree with the three pillars of their policy. I’ll say that much. Simply addressing the physical addiction issue is an exercise in futility.

Anyway. As noted I will search tomorrow. It may not have even been in reference to Portugal now that I think of it. But certainly remember it being one of the countries where decriminalisation was adopted.

 

[gyp0]

If Portugal can change, so can every other country.

Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

The long read: Since it decriminalised all drugs in 2001, Portugal has seen dramatic drops in overdoses, HIV infection and drug-related crime

www.theguardian.com

"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
-Susana Ferreira, The Guardian

Yeah, 20 years ago and still no change. How quickly did a covid vaccine appear? How quickly were lockdowns enacted? How much money was printed to address that health issue? It's almost as if our society decided to throw drug users under the bus. In a representative democracy in which the majority of people have drug use experience. Weird. It's almost as if they're trying to thin the herd or something. Starting with people who might be described in such terms as a "basket of deplorables" e.t.c. Not that anyone in the democratic west could be so divorced from their electorate as to describe them in such terms without fear of repercussion though, eh?

Re-gaining Unconsciousness (NOFX)

Who made how much money from the massive increase in opium production in Afghanistan under western coalition occupation? How much of that money went into treatment? HSBC was founded to profit from the opium war and apparently it's still quite profitable.

HSBC Controversies

How much of that profit goes into treatment?

See where I'm going with this?

Chris Hedges described the US Government as "a wholly owned subsidiary of Goldman Sachs" well, the UK is HSBC.

They don't care about justice or health or what's right. They certainly don't care about me or you. They don't care about healthy or unhealthy relationships. They care about profit. And when they talk about "sustainability" they mean depopulation. There is a reason that none of us can afford to have children anymore. It's only going to get worse in our lifetimes and a heroin habit isn't going to help.

Don't believe me?

Dan Price Baby Boom Where is the ticker tape parade for this guys astounding discovery? We've got prep now, we can just print more money have a global orgy and bring on the baby boom and yet....

Fertility rate: 'Jaw-dropping' global crash in children being born

If you're a bitcoin millionaire and can afford to buy a lifetimes supply of heroin in one go then I guess that's your prerogative, but even then you're missing out.

For everyone else: Unless you really want to know your fellow mans capacity for cruelty, and I promise you that you don't, stay away from the opiates.

 

[blockbusterparty]

Omg. I thought ALL of these justifications in the OP for trying H. I literally thought there was like, a negative chance of me becoming a regular user, let alone addicted, despite the fact I already had SA issues.
Re: one use addicting you: while you won’t become physically dependent after one use, the intense euphoria is unlike anything I have ever seen experienced and have been unable to get out of my mind. And I’ve only ever sniffed it.

 

[JessFR]

Omg. I thought ALL of these justifications in the OP for trying H. I literally thought there was like, a negative chance of me becoming a regular user, let alone addicted, despite the fact I already had SA issues.
Re: one use addicting you: while you won’t become physically dependent after one use, the intense euphoria is unlike anything I have ever seen experienced and have been unable to get out of my mind. And I’ve only ever sniffed it.

You won't become dependant from one use.

But anyone who says you can't become addicted from one use is naive. You can. You can try it one time and that can be all it takes to struggle to stop, potentially up to the remainder of your life.

Some things once experienced can never be forgotten.

 

[gyp0]

while you won’t become physically dependent after one use, the intense euphoria is unlike anything I have ever seen experienced and have been unable to get out of my mind. And I’ve only ever sniffed it.

Yeah, that. Then you've got a "the precious" in your head singing siren songs to you every time life hurts. If you're really unlucky you end up with a devil on your shoulder talking like an anti-natalist which is one degree removed from talking like a suicidal and worse you've set yourself apart from your brothers and sisters which is effectively the same thing as setting yourself apart from "G-d". I've no way of knowing but I suspect a cruel irony and that is that the "intense euphoria" you experienced is what, or very close to what, some (maybe most) people take for granted as their everyday experience.

When I first used Taineptine, and this was legit Tianeptine from that Turkish pharmacy that was shut down for filling about 30% of global Taineptine prescriptions, I was using 2 of the 3 recommended tablets per day and the difference that made to my mood, initially, was small but this is where language fails, it was small like the temperature difference between water at -1 degree and + 1 degree. A normal person might have felt a change from 10 to 12 degrees, no big deal, but for me it was a phase change. It profoundly changed everything, all my interactions.

I was certain that people would notice that I was intoxicated, so profound was the change in my mood but that didn't happen at all. I'm inclined to assume that this is because the Tianeptine made me significantly more normal.

The only time I had enjoyed such a profound transformation in my internal state previously is when an ex-girlfriend and I had seperated the codeine out from a heap of co-codamol and shared it at a social get together. Coincidence? I rather suspect not.

I'm inclined to assume that the real opiates are doing the same thing for others.

I'm as pro drug law reform as anyone, I'd rather house and treat the worlds destitute and addicted than leave them all on the street suffering abuse from drunks. Like Johnny Cash, I am the man in black,



but he wrote that song in 1971. I've been that way since 1996 and there have been seven general elections in my country since then so I'm not holding my breath for change.

Just in case I've been too withholding in terms of cynicism, two reasons why the war on drugs won't end and one reason to hope.



I realise that this isn't directly about the war on drugs but these people aren't idiots, this isn't simple ineptitude. Consider their motivations.



"it perhaps speaks to the salesmanship of Lex" Yeah, it perhaps speaks partly to that. Partly to something else. That something else is what religious people might describe as idol worship, the worship of money. By "Worship" I mean give your time and attention to, to the exclusion of most everything else, because that's what the word means. These patterns play out over long spans of history so, again, don't hold your breath for drug law reform. I'd level the same accusation at people who choose to modulate their own internal pain, and I'm in that group myself, with drugs-that-won't-offer-a-recovery like cocaine and heroin.

MDMA, ayahuasca, ketamine, shrooms e.t.c. can all be therapeutic or at least pro-social. Cocaine might even be therapeutic to some couples, in the bedroom, say, but heroin, for a significant minority at least, is an isolating pursuit, wrongly so, perhaps, but don't expect change and don't expect healing. Anyone using heroin is trading cold comfort for change, to borrow from Pink Floyd. If that's the best that person can hope for then personally I'd rather the NHS just gave them the heroin but what would that do to all those profits that I pointed out earlier?

A question: If we're throwing heroin addicts under the bus to keep pensioners in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed via banks laundering drug cartel money e.t.c. How different is that than previous instances of human sacrifice? How enlightened is our society compared to the Inca, say?

Finally, some grounds for optimism.

 

[silver darling]

Yknow that's just such bullshit. I don't think there's t. There might be 80% who THINK they are not dependant, because it has to be mostly honeymooners, right? Most older users are long dead, usually. Also I need to read that study, or the number is pure coinci80% of people who take heroin and are not dependandental, anecdotal nonsense to me, sorry.

Read - How Permanent Was Vietnam Drug Addiction?

In 1971,drug use by U.S. servicemen in Vietnam had,by all estimates,reached epidemic proportions. A follow up study of returning Army enlisted men was carried out in order to facilitate planning of programs for these soldiers and to gain insight concerning the natural history of drug use and abuse when drugs are readily available to young men from all types of social backgrounds. Findings on the permanence of Vietnam drug addiction are presented.

------

But agreed, in most places 80% of heroin users will be addicted/dependent. People attracted to heroin are predisposed to addiction , thats why they're attracted. But from 100% of genpop , dose up everyone for 3 months, only 10% will go on to develop chronic dependence.

 

[paranoid android]

I have surprisingly never taken Heroin probably because i have almost always had access to script opiates. I have been addicted to Morphine, Dilaudid and Fentanyl though. But in all my time using these drugs i have never even come close to ODing or having anything more serious then withdrawal happen to me. Yet i can't even count how many dead friends i have from using whatever the fuck is sold as Heroin. Here it's mostly Fentanyl anyway. I have no doubt if i had to use street Heroin id probably be dead by now but as i have a script for Morphine i have no need to resort to buying smack. The morphine kills my pain and gives me a rush when i shoot it which is rare these days. I know shooting pills is never safe but atleast i know the dose im using won't kill me.

So obviously it's because your buying unknown doses of a often unknown drug that's the problem here. Heroin like Morphine is quite safe when used properly. Diamorphine was used in Canada up until the late 90's i think. I even had a doctor mention Diamorphine to me as a potential painkiller because she didnt know it was taken off the market as this was around 2006. So had it been available i could have gotten a Diamorphine script to brag about but i got Dilaudid instead which suited me. They use Dilaudid as a Heroin substitute in BC which sounds like a pretty good idea. Though i can see problems coming from having to dose Dilaudid more often then Heroin.

 

[silver darling]

The possible flaw here, though, is the money that the smack business is worth. But is that a result of addiction mainly or mainly due overall recreational use?

IDK size of recreational market. Traditional economics of heroin is "addiction makes good money because its a stable, reliable market - users come back day after day". With the usual business model focused on poorer areas I guess that targets more at risk users - poverty a major risk factor for chronic addiction.

But as extreme as the economics of heroin are I'm not sure how they'd influence a 10% of users get addicted heuristic. Other drugs with other business models see similar addiction rates.

 

[silver darling]

Thanks for mentioning this. I would definitely agree with 80% non-dependant on opioids in general. That's a number I can believe, especially because many people dabble in weak/prescription opioids for quite some time before they.."upgrade"

Another thing is the admittal of dependence. I really need to see this study, or it's utter BS to me :/
I need actual numbers. Who are they asking?

Similar 10% addiction rate as weed -

Is marijuana addictive?​

Those studies suggest that 9% of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it,

Cannabis (Marijuana) | National Institute on Drug Abuse

Learn more about NIDA’s research on the health effects of cannabis.

www.drugabuse.gov

--

But fair point, defining dependence and getting proofs is hard. And I'm like your description above. Dabbled in opiates from my teens, used heroin later. Never IV and kinda kept on a max 2 day use min 2 week break for years. But now in my mid 50s, last 2 years I've slipped over, smoking and sniffing. I get withdrawal now not just hangover . I couldn't work with or afford a daily habit but I cant handle, or work, the withdrawal. I think heroin is done for me. I also think i was addicted as a teen , always to some substance, or a combination. Heroin worked for me, i thought i had it kinda sussed, but now it'll finish me.

 

[JessFR]

I don't think marijuana is any more addicting than any pleasurable activity, which is to say, not very at all.

I don't think it's any more dependency inducing than a few other very mildly dependency inducing things.

It's nothing whatsoever like heroin. In either sense, addicting or dependency inducing.

 

[silver darling]

I don't think marijuana is any more addicting than any pleasurable activity, which is to say, not very at all.

I don't think it's any more dependency inducing than a few other very mildly dependency inducing things.

It's nothing whatsoever like heroin. In either sense, addicting or dependency inducing.

Thats opiate exceptionalism, mythology. i kinda agree, if drugs were legalised i dont want to see smack advertised on TV. When the pleasurable activity of gambling has a 5% addiction rate - "Three to five gamblers out of every hundred struggles with a gambling problem" and heroins a far better feel good bet than a horse.

But fact is more people are addicted to chocolate, weed and drink than smack. Agreed the physiology of heroin addiction is horrific - I'm getting a lesson on that now, myself - but addiction and dependence are primarily psychological and any mood altering substance/activity can be a vector.

That's the vietnam study - military were doing good dope but most did a months withdrawal and never went back to it. Only 10% continued with a chronic addiction. There could be physical and psychological/experiential predispositions but evidence is even the most addictive substances dont, of themselves, have much hook effect if the human is not vulnerable.

If the human is vulnerable it doesn't need heroin to hook them.

 

[JessFR]

Yeaaaa you'll have to excuse me if I rely more on my life experience.

Which is that I've never seen anyone do the shit I've seen people do for heroin for chocolate or coffee or weed or mdma or lots of other drugs and addictive shit.

There's no getting around it that I can see. To a certain proportion of the population, heroin is a ticket to enslavement.

There's lots of things we could do as a society to lessen the harms of that enslavement, but you're still a slave.