Harm Reduction ⫸Should I Try HEROIN?⫷

[JessFR]

I dunno chinup - "chronic use of an analogue drug might affect bone density in later life" wouldn't put me off occasionally using the drug. If you said it caused lung cancer and liver damage I might think again. But if bone density is something you're worried about then I get your point.

Occasionally? You speak like you have no idea what this class of drug can do to peoples minds.

It's fair to argue about the positives of opioids, not everything about them is evil incarnate. But at the same time. They are VERY powerful in a way, I'm not sure you can appreciate if you haven't been there.

We tend to think we are in control of our decisions, that we have free will. It's only once you lose it you realize how little you had to start with.

 

[JessFR]

That's interesting jess - I started drugs with mushrooms so for me heroin was always a big step down from the mushroom high. Perhaps if I'd started with heroin I would've been more impressed.

To be fair, different people seem to genuinely experience drugs differently.

Most people really like weed for instance. I don't much care for it at all. I can't imagine wanting to do it to the degree of many others I've seen.

The same is true for all drugs.

Yes, including opioids. Some people are not at risk from opioids, or at substantially less risk than say.. People like me. Just as I'm at less risk than some people for drugs like meth.

But just because it's fairly benign in some use cases doesn't mean it's benign, because we can't ensure only those use cases are the ones happening.

 

[Ismene2]

By benign I meant it's effects on the body - heroin isn't going to destroy your liver or lungs like cigs and alcohol. You can inject it into babies and terminal grannies - that to me is what you call a benign drug. The addiction is something apart from the drug - if someone wasn't addicted to heroin they would find something else to be addicted to. Did Johann Hari say something like 5% of the population is vulnerable to addiction?

But lets say for the sake of argument heroin is "dangerous" like the DEA says. How "dangerous" would you say it is compared to say driving your car? More or less? Going down the stairs? More or less?

Ecstasy is also said to be "dangerous" but more people die choking on satsumas in the average year than die from taking ecstasy so we need to put some kind of meaning to the word "dangerous". If a satsuma is more deadly than the drug you're taking - I say take the fucking thing

 

[Ismene2]

Only other thing that often strikes me among drug users is if there's one person on the entire earth, at any time in human history, who had some kind of negative reaction to a drug - that's held over every other drug user as a "threat" that they face, that it's "possible" that it may happen to you. I don't know of any other walk of life where that mentality is so strong.

If a dozen people choke to death on satsumas every year - people still don't tend to claim "STOP GRANNY STOP!! If you eat a satsuma there's a chance it may kill you, please put it down slowly..". It just wouldn't cross anyones mind to even think it when it's such a rare occurence. But if it was a drug there would be no end of "health education warnings". Why?

 

[tubgirl.jpg]

So you don't get the fuss about it and only use sporadically, but you want to uproot your entire life and are actively working towards cultivating a new life, that centers entirely around harvesting poppy alone in the wild so you can literally be high 24/7 by yourself? These two stances kinda seem to be at odds with each other man...

Thanks for calling out my bullshit, I saw it just nu, for some odd reason.

That statement I made was pure and utter bullshit in some kind of attempt to convince myself I wasn't hooked.
Goddamn, it's amazing what self-manipulation one (at least I, and I bet I'm not alone) practices too make ones flaws seems less... flawed.

Sporadically in that sentence meant that when I didn't have heroin - I did morphine or oxy.

What a fucking moron.
(Me, not you)

 

[December Flower]

By benign I meant it's effects on the body - heroin isn't going to destroy your liver or lungs like cigs and alcohol. You can inject it into babies and terminal grannies - that to me is what you call a benign drug.

Dude. Opioid receptors.

I don't like this "harmless to the body" argument, it's utter utter bullshit - yeah, sure, totally harmless, it just neurochemically changes you into being (almost)unable to feel happiness without opioids, maybe for the rest of your life, BUT OTHER THAN THAT...

That's nothing psychological, even if many probably think it is. No, manipulating your own receptors and desensitizing them to natural body-opioids by taking heroin, etc., makes it like instinct to take more of the heroin. We can't survive without opioids in our system, that's just that, so when the opioid levels are low, because you fucked them up, it's like stopping to breathe, or drink or eat. It's our drive to live, and that's what an addict injects here.

Also there are shitloads of physical side-effects of long-term use: veins, membranes, nostrils, skin, constipation, immune system, insomnia, heart rate, the list is really long.

I don't like this argument. It's illogical, and it's silly, and it's likely a lie by whoever says it probably to themselves, gotta defend the shit in order to keep actively lying to oneself and taking more heroin.


The other argument, the Satsuma one. I feel a bit insulted even answering to this, you're a class A bullshiter, but you likely know that. Death by citrus fruits is not as common as death by opioids. That's why we don't tell grandma how dangerous citrus fruits are, because they're not.

 

[Ismene2]

Dude. Opioid receptors.

I don't like this "harmless to the body" argument, it's utter utter bullshit - yeah, sure, totally harmless, it just neurochemically changes you into being (almost)unable to feel happiness without opioids, maybe for the rest of your life, BUT OTHER THAN THAT...

Steady on flower! What about Jim Hogshire? Have you read "Opium for the masses"? He says using opium every day made him a far happier person. You think being straight is always going to lead to more happiness than opium every day? Being straight every day is no picnic you know. I'm fucking miserable myself!

The other argument, the Satsuma one. I feel a bit insulted even answering to this, you're a class A bullshiter, but you likely know that. Death by citrus fruits is not as common as death by opioids. That's why we don't tell grandma how dangerous citrus fruits are, because they're not.

That's why I didn't say it kills more than street opioids tho. I said Ecstasy. It was a famous study years ago when Ecstasy was killing about 5 people a year and there was a national outcry about it - someone pointed out that 9 people died that year from choking to death on satsumas.

 

[December Flower]

Steady on flower! What about Jim Hogshire? Have you read "Opium for the masses"? He says using opium every day made him a far happier person. You think being straight is always going to lead to more happiness than opium every day? Being straight every day is no picnic you know. I'm fucking miserable myself!



That's why I didn't say it kills more than street opioids tho. I said Ecstasy. It was a famous study years ago when Ecstasy was killing about 5 people a year and there was a national outcry about it - someone pointed out that 9 people died that year from choking to death on satsumas.

I don't think anyone should take Ecstasy, or Opioids, or Marihuana, or Nicotine, or high amounts of sugar for that matter.

Ah, but did it make him a far happier person without the opioids, too? I mean, yeah, if you have the money to do the increasing tolerance and injecting yourself into orgasm-land, yeah sure you're "happier". It just means that your happiness can be expressed by a number: the money you pay for the shot you need. Also the genuine happiness stops, right? Only can be happy with the opioids, that's not saying it made him a happy person, that's saying he was a slave to the ecstasy it brings.



If that's a great life, I don't fucking know..


Also, I'm not going to read a book that tells people how to cultivate Opium, and celebrates this culture. I'm not going to say anything positive about this either. I think it's despicable to tell people that this is a good lifestyle, and anyone like this dude, or the "professor" the others posted about earlier, I think they should be shot, and not with heroin, with a 12-gauge

 

[Ismene2]

Well his claim was it's no problem being addicted cos they only cost 20 bucks for a thousand or however many he was getting. He wasn't desperate or unable to feed his habit - just ordered another case of poppies whenever he needed some. I can see his point - if you're fucking miserable sober and opium makes you happy what's the problem? A hundred plus years ago opium was as common as popping an aspirin today - you take it as a tonic or a mood lift to get you through another hellish day in the factory. It wasn't seen as any big deal.

Mind you I think Jim eventually got busted for something - as Keith Richards said "I never had a drug problem, I had a police problem"

I suppose it depends how miserable you are being sober.

 

[December Flower]

Well his claim was it's no problem being addicted cos they only cost 20 bucks for a thousand or however many he was getting. He wasn't desperate or unable to feed his habit - just ordered another case of poppies whenever he needed some. I can see his point - if you're fucking miserable sober and opium makes you happy what's the problem? A hundred plus years ago opium was as common as popping an aspirin today - you take it as a tonic or a mood lift to get you through another hellish day in the factory. It wasn't seen as any big deal.

Mind you I think Jim eventually got busted for something - as Keith Richards said "I never had a drug problem, I had a police problem"

I suppose it depends how miserable you are being sober.

There's an issue with this way of thinking.

If you're miserable, that means something with your brain-chemistry is not in balance. It means your thyroid is inactive, and one should work to STEADILY increase said balance, instead of feeding into a habit that in modern times is deadly. Depression is seldom purely psychological, especially long-lasting depression is most always a result of neurochemical imbalance.

Your body is the perfect chemistry lab, and by feeding it the right ingredients, we can live a long and happy life. We don't need to resort to putting opioids in our body, we should give our body and brain what they need in order to feed off our body-own opioids.

It's just illogical, and it destroys our entire reward system, making "acquiring opioids" the highest priority. It should be - not by munching pills or sticking a needle up your arm - but by working out, having sex, eating healthy, drinking water, making music, going into nature. This way we have a healthy relationship to the entire concept of "action - reaction". If you just can push a button and feel happy, you're going to push the button, and everything else will fall out of relevance, since you have the button to make you happy.

 

[Ismene2]

What if you're too shy to get laid? What if socialising with other people does nothing for you? Life is boring and drugs relieve boredom. I'm not saying taking drugs is the answer to life (er..or am i..?)

But sure - I like working out and going in nature - I prefer going into nature stuffed full of mescaline mind you

 

[papercuts]

There's an issue with this way of thinking.

If you're miserable, that means something with your brain-chemistry is not in balance. It means your thyroid is inactive, and one should work to STEADILY increase said balance, instead of feeding into a habit that in modern times is deadly. Depression is seldom purely psychological, especially long-lasting depression is most always a result of neurochemical imbalance.

Your body is the perfect chemistry lab, and by feeding it the right ingredients, we can live a long and happy life. We don't need to resort to putting opioids in our body, we should give our body and brain what they need in order to feed off our body-own opioids.

It's just illogical, and it destroys our entire reward system, making "acquiring opioids" the highest priority. It should be - not by munching pills or sticking a needle up your arm - but by working out, having sex, eating healthy, drinking water, making music, going into nature. This way we have a healthy relationship to the entire concept of "action - reaction". If you just can push a button and feel happy, you're going to push the button, and everything else will fall out of relevance, since you have the button to make you happy.

We don't need to resort to opiates, I agree, it's a choice. I use opiate meds to relieve pain, it's unrivalled for that and you are lucky but also naive if you think healthy living as per your instructions will solve the problems others face.

 

[JessFR]

We don't need to resort to opiates, I agree, it's a choice. I use opiate meds to relieve pain, it's unrivalled for that and you are lucky but also naive if you think healthy living as per your instructions will solve the problems others face.

I agree. And this is why I'm less cut and dry about the dangers of heroin to people already suicidally or near suicidally depressed and have tried and failed more conventional approaches to getting better.

For all the damage it did, opioids have helped me cope with some really bad shit. I am not entirely sure I wouldn't have killed myself by now if I hadn't found them.

That doesn't make using heroin a good idea, and I think if your life is already even half decent you'd be crazy to go anywhere near opioids unless you have severe physical pain.

But for people already in a lot of trouble... It complicates things and makes the picture a bit less clear.

Of course it's still worth mentioning that heroin caused my a lot of suffering on its own, I was just better able to deal with it.

Heroin is an excellent painkiller, mental pain included, no one can seriously deny that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I agree. And this is why I'm less cut and dry about the dangers of heroin to people already suicidally or near suicidally depressed and have tried and failed more conventional approaches to getting better.

For all the damage it did, opioids have helped me cope with some really bad shit. I am not entirely sure I wouldn't have killed myself by now if I hadn't found them.

same. i don't think heroin is ever a good idea, but it does need to be acknowledged that taking such a dangerous drug is suggestive that things aren't ok.

if your suffering in the short term feels intolerable, then risking more suffering in the long term seems rational.

 

[December Flower]

We don't need to resort to opiates, I agree, it's a choice. I use opiate meds to relieve pain, it's unrivalled for that and you are lucky but also naive if you think healthy living as per your instructions will solve the problems others face.

You'r kidding yourself, if you think that after 5 years of heroin you will be better off, than after 5 years of doing what I said: I said this is the long-term solution, and it is.

Saying this won't help, is like saying your chemistry lab(body) is broken. Yeah, there are cases, where opioids are absolutely fine. The terminally ill, people in chronic pain, but if you're depressed, maybe try what I said for a month first, before saying it won't work, because it will work in most cases. You seem to miss the point that this is solely Biology. This is what your body does if you feed it right. There's no "in my opinion" here, this is how it is. And yes it takes hard work and time, but I still need to see a case that wasn't in hardcore PTSD, or terminally ill, or in nonstop pain where this doesn't work.

Especially the food is important. I don't believe in "untreatable" depression, it's just bullshit, unless it's linked to some severe PTSD, and even then there's other long-term solutions. It's definitely going to take some time to get better. And heroin is the quick & easy way out, a fast "Feel Good"-button, that completely destroys your relation to feeling good without the button, and after that you need the button. Maybe try living healthy first, at least?

You're joking if you say that everyone tried this already before resorting to heroin

edit: If opioids help you get better, why would body-own opioids be ANY different?

 

[JessFR]

You'r kidding yourself, if you think that after 5 years of heroin you will be better off, than after 5 years of doing what I said: I said this is the long-term solution, and it is.

Saying this won't help, is like saying your chemistry lab(body) is broken. Yeah, there are cases, where opioids are absolutely fine. The terminally ill, people in chronic pain, but if you're depressed, maybe try what I said for a month first, before saying it won't work, because it will work in most cases. You seem to miss the point that this is solely Biology. This is what your body does if you feed it right. There's no "in my opinion" here, this is how it is. And yes it takes hard work and time, but I still need to see a case that wasn't in hardcore PTSD, or terminally ill, or in nonstop pain where this doesn't work.

Especially the food is important. I don't believe in "untreatable" depression, it's just bullshit, unless it's linked to some severe PTSD, and even then there's other long-term solutions. It's definitely going to take some time to get better. And heroin is the quick & easy way out, a fast "Feel Good"-button, that completely destroys your relation to feeling good without the button, and after that you need the button. Maybe try living healthy first, at least?

You're joking if you say that everyone tried this already before resorting to heroin

edit: If opioids help you get better, why would body-own opioids be ANY different?

Getting depressed people to actually do hard work in their long term best interests can be virtually impossible. Hell I've found it exceedingly hard to get people to do even the most simplest things that might help with their depression. Getting depressed people to go get ANY help can be an uphill battle because depression makes you believe it's pointless.

Sooo, even accepting the idea of there being no untreatable depression in theory, in practice is another story.

Especially when you add in useless medical systems and psychiatrists who at any given time have 1 and only 1 set course of favored treatments at a the time, and if that doesn't work they won't try anything else.

 

[December Flower]

Getting depressed people to actually do hard work in their long term best interests can be virtually impossible. Hell I've found it exceedingly hard to get people to do even the most simplest things that might help with their depression.

Sooo, even accepting the idea of there being no untreatable depression in theory, in practice is another story.

Especially when you add in useless medical systems and psychiatrists who at any given time have 1 and only 1 set course of favored treatments at a the time, and if that doesn't work they won't try anything else.

Yes, you're right about that, sadly. It's very hard to do that.

I was very depressed after abusing MDMA for a long time, I mean absolutely empty, and I had to figuratively kick my own butt in order to do things. I just forced myself to, but once I saw how much better I felt when I just went running for half an hour, I started pushing myself more.

What I did, however, was start with the food first, because it was easy. I didn't have to move much for it, and after about 2 weeks I felt good enough to go running. I still didn't want to, ofc.

I think another person to motivate you is exactly what depressed people need.
Someone to say "get your lazy ass off the couch!"

 

[papercuts]

You'r kidding yourself, if you think that after 5 years of heroin you will be better off, than after 5 years of doing what I said: I said this is the long-term solution, and it is.

Saying this won't help, is like saying your chemistry lab(body) is broken. Yeah, there are cases, where opioids are absolutely fine. The terminally ill, people in chronic pain, but if you're depressed, maybe try what I said for a month first, before saying it won't work, because it will work in most cases. You seem to miss the point that this is solely Biology. This is what your body does if you feed it right. There's no "in my opinion" here, this is how it is. And yes it takes hard work and time, but I still need to see a case that wasn't in hardcore PTSD, or terminally ill, or in nonstop pain where this doesn't work.

Especially the food is important. I don't believe in "untreatable" depression, it's just bullshit, unless it's linked to some severe PTSD, and even then there's other long-term solutions. It's definitely going to take some time to get better. And heroin is the quick & easy way out, a fast "Feel Good"-button, that completely destroys your relation to feeling good without the button, and after that you need the button. Maybe try living healthy first, at least?

You're joking if you say that everyone tried this already before resorting to heroin

edit: If opioids help you get better, why would body-own opioids be ANY different?

In many ways you are right, but I'm speaking for my own situation. I haven't had the five year herion habit you mention, I have used, but so little and long ago that I don't think it's relevant here, I wouldn't know where to get it. It ended when my boyfriend failed to come back with it, he never came back at all and by the time I eventually realised all that I was too sick to go anywhere, so a friend stayed with me and I've not used it since.
My situation was I smoked hash as a kid and poppy stalks when in season, taken from a relative's garden that's a harsh smoke though, just about worth it. From age twelve I was schooled in the use of virtually every drug available at the time by a helpful older relative of mine, right under the noses of our social workers. When I ran away age sixteen, knowing as my sister had before me, that I could look after myself better without our parents around, that street knowledge was essential and is probably one reason I didn't die then even though I fully expected my life to end in my early twenties at the latest.
What I didn't say, but you probably gathered by now is I was well traumatised as a child for all sorts of reasons and I've used drugs for as long as I can remember to block it out except for the first twenty four years of my marriage when my husband insisted on sobriety while we raised our kids. I fully agreed in principle and we both mainly did the right thing, not wanting my kids to feel like I did as a kid. I feel guilt for using drugs in pregnancy, but done is done and the kids all went to uni and seem to like us (their parents) even after a year of various lockdowns and all staying together in the same house!
So now I'm in my fifties and my kids are all adults, I have had a painful condition since birth which I always had to live with as a kid, I was always in trouble for not keeping up in anything physical, in hindsight I was probably drawn to drugs for the pain relief as well as mental relief.
During my sober years I didn't even take an aspirin, nothing (except for the occasional slip up, but that wasn't for aspirin!). My middle child had ADHD and was very affected by food additives, so for many years I cooked every meal from raw ingredients as they were when they left the farm, organic if I could afford it. No processed food, no coloured sweets or flavoured crisps, no fruit juices (rots kids teeth). So none of my kids ever had a filling, the two who have graduated uni so far, did so with a first, the highest grade. And they even like us! So I'm very pleased with life in general right now.
But lockdown is fucking boring isn't it?
Therein lies the problem.
I'm at home 24/7 with all my family.
And I love them
And I know that me without drugs right now would mean the rest of my family put up with me being a moody menopausal bitch 24/7
So isn't it better I find ways to be the happy person who cheers everyone else and everyone loves to be around me?
I'm not spending beyond my means, we all have our own incomes now so money is fine.
My doctor gives me a lot of prescription meds, it's on the relevant thread already, plus I have ethically sourced weed and additional opiates, not heroin though.
I don't drive.
I work from home on the computer and I can manage that part time at times when I'm clear, but really I'm stoned one way or another 24/7 and I'm not coming out of this comfortable way of being any time soon.
I see no reason to. I dose up on opiates before cleaning the house for example, I put on my headsphones and I don't even notice the time, I'm so enjoying cleaning those toilets, lol.
The alternative is to be sober, straight, whatever you like to call it. I try to scrub the shower, but my fingers are too painful after a couple of minutes, I change cloths, brushes, try to manage the pain I'm in. I begin to feel whatever chemicals are related to pain and stress coming into my brain, they make the pain worse and make me think back to my childhood, I get caught in circular thoughts that persist until the night, I'm no fun to be with, I can't sleep, I wake up tired and have brainfog all day.
That is sobriety. How is that better?

 

[Olivia Nicole]

I agree. And this is why I'm less cut and dry about the dangers of heroin to people already suicidally or near suicidally depressed and have tried and failed more conventional approaches to getting better.

For all the damage it did, opioids have helped me cope with some really bad shit. I am not entirely sure I wouldn't have killed myself by now if I hadn't found them.

I'm glad you acknowledged this. For people in severe physical and mental/emotional pain, the risk of addiction is serious. But even in those cases it can help. My boyfriend is a guitarist and suffers from major depression and heroin clears his head enough to allow him to write and play music.

But other people asking themselves, "Should I do heroin?" are drawn to it out of a sense of adventure and curiosity. Heroin is, to quote a song by Cold Play, "an island to be discovered".

Not everyone becomes hopelessly addicted. Some people really are invincible. But you won't know until you try it.

 

[LandsUnknown]

Basically, some people who try it get lucky and either don't like it or at least like it less than other, less dangerous drugs. Thus, they try it once or a few times and have no interest in it.

However, many people DO like it. And REALLY like it, unfortunately. This typically leads to addiction, which is often very difficult to quit. However, it isn't just a state of mind thing. Whether or not this happens is partly physiological. Some people get addicted without having been in a bad place at all when they first used.