Harm Reduction ⫸Should I Try HEROIN?⫷

[Jabberwocky]

Which is another reason you're not gonna be convincing most of us who've had to deal with this for a while, most of us have already seen what happened to people who were so sure they were functional and had it under control, sooner or later.

that was me.... the problem is, that as with any addiction, it is progressive. i maintained all my addictions and functioned at a very high level, getting a PhD in a shit hard subject while being addicted to benzos, weed and alcohol, then heroin too towards the end. but thought that cos i was functioning, i didn't need to stop. so i carried on, got worse, lost almost everything and ended up paying for my habit on my back.

but, being a functional addict also doesn't mean you're fine. my first thread about addiction on this forum (i posted in TDS years ago no idea if its still there) was full of fear and despair. but i had a decent job and a social life at the time of writing, so i was functional. but i was still in hell.

being an addict is horrendous. its worse being a non-functional one, cos you're further along, but at least at that point you're free from having to maintain the illusion of being a normal person, which is fucking exhausting.

 

[JessFR]

I don't think there are a pile of hidden functional heroin addicts who have it all under control. What I think is that there is a pile of hidden functional heroin addicts who are right on the edge and all it'll take is a sharp bump to knock them off.

How many people on bluelight could at some point in their lives have classed themselves as part of the hidden functional heroin users, but then it all went to shit soon as something went wrong.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I don't think there are a pile of hidden functional heroin addicts who have it all under control.

just to clairfy, i was agreeing with you and disagreeing with whoever was suggesting that its OK somehow to be a functional addict

 

[Ismene2]

I've taken heroin maybe 5-10 times a year for the last 10-20 years. Never found it remotely addictive, never even thought much of the high (I snort it). I don't believe heroin addiction has much to do with heroin - it's more to do with the nature of the person taking it. Check out Johan Hari's book on drugs for the full story but the idea that "you take it once and it's so good you can't stop" is utter bollocks. To become a heroin addict takes long, hard effort and a lot of work. You really need to put in work to get "addicted" - taking it every day for months and months which is a pretty punishing thing to do - and even if you do do that - heroin use was rife among soldiers in Vietnam - the DEA scare story was "They'll all be heroin addicts when they get back from Nam" - the reality was there was piss-all heroin addiction once they came back from Nam cos they had other things to do in their life apart from sit waiting to get shot at.

But I'm not saying take it (I'm not saying don't take it either).

Oh go on, I will just mention "Rat park" - all those studies you've read about where when rats were offered heroin/coke/crack water and they drank it till they die "because it's like so terribly addictive dude" are all based on rats left isolated in wire cages with nothing else in their lives. You put the same heroin water in an area where rats have room to move around, meet other rats and have a bit of a life and none of them ever give a flying fuck about the heroin.

 

[JessFR]

I've taken heroin maybe 5-10 times a year for the last 10-20 years. Never found it remotely addictive, never even thought much of the high (I snort it). I don't believe heroin addiction has much to do with heroin - it's more to do with the nature of the person taking it. Check out Johan Hari's book on drugs for the full story but the idea that "you take it once and it's so good you can't stop" is utter bollocks.

Sorry but that's crap. From the moment I first tried opioids I had trouble stopping. I've known many others with the same experience.

Not everyone is prone to heroin addiction that is true, but some people are and some of them can develop an addiction pretty much straight away.

Whether you wanna call that the "nature of the person taking it" or something else, suggesting that you can't become addicted from trying heroin simply isn't true.

Some people will become addicted pretty much straight away, some will take a while. And for some it's just not their drug.

Meth for instance isn't my drug. I can't see myself ever being addicted to it cause I just don't like it that much. That does NOT mean nobody has problems with it as soon as they try it though.

It's probably, like so many things in life, genetic and environmental.

 

[Ismene2]

Well how come I can take heroin and never find it remotely addictive? In fact after taking it 2 days in a row I need to take a week or two off because it makes you feel so shit. Doesn't that prove it's not the heroin it's the person taking it?

Addiction is real - but there's so much more to it than taking the drug. I'd say it's 5% taking the drug and 95% about what your life is like at the time. Didn't you ever find it a slog taking heroin every day when you first started? After two days I was exhausted, I feel like shit, I've spent money I don't have, I've got other responsibilities in my life that require me to be straight - it takes a very special kind of person to feel like that and go "You know what, what I feel like doing today is taking more heroin".

 

[Jabberwocky]

To become a heroin addict takes long, hard effort and a lot of work. You really need to put in work to get "addicted" - taking it every day for months and months which is a pretty punishing thing to do

like Jess, i was obsessed from the first time i tried it properly. it took me about 18 months from then to get aphysical habit despite moving to almost daily use the second i got a job. honestly i had disdain for addicts in that time cos like you, i thought you must have to try really hard to get addicted. really i was just on borrowed time by that point.

Oh go on, I will just mention "Rat park" - all those studies you've read about where when rats were offered heroin/coke/crack water and they drank it till they die "because it's like so terribly addictive dude" are all based on rats left isolated in wire cages with nothing else in their lives. You put the same heroin water in an area where rats have room to move around, meet other rats and have a bit of a life and none of them ever give a flying fuck about the heroin.

we all know about rat park. that doesn't mean we can suddenly up and move our lives and rewrite history so that we can be in the park and not the wire cage.

i have read chasing the scream and i don't recall any moralistic bullshit about blaming addicts. the message i took from it was about how deadly prohibition is.

Well how come I can take heroin and never find it remotely addictive? In fact after taking it 2 days in a row I need to take a week or two off because it makes you feel so shit. Doesn't that prove it's not the heroin it's the person taking it?

has it occurred to you that your circumstances are vastly different to that of most heroin addicts? have you read gabor mate? if your childhood is not characterised by some sort of abuse and repeated trauma, then you probably don't get what we get out of heroin. even if it was, some people just find another way to cope and if its less destructive than addiction then good on you.

honestly, you are lucky, you dabble and get away with it. that doesn't mean you know shit about what causes addiction or makes a drug addictive. yes, it is down to the user's circumstances but that doesn't make heroin any less addictive.

 

[Ismene2]

Not blaming anyone chinup - just saying becoming a heroin addict is a full time occupation. Taking it every day for months and months when you arn't addicted to it is simply beyond most peoples capacity.

Read chasing the scream again - his point is heroin isn't addictive for the vast majority of people who take it.

 

[JessFR]

Well how come I can take heroin and never find it remotely addictive? In fact after taking it 2 days in a row I need to take a week or two off because it makes you feel so shit. Doesn't that prove it's not the heroin it's the person taking it?

Addiction is real - but there's so much more to it than taking the drug. I'd say it's 5% taking the drug and 95% about what your life is like at the time. Didn't you ever find it a slog taking heroin every day when you first started? After two days I was exhausted, I feel like shit, I've spent money I don't have, I've got other responsibilities in my life that require me to be straight - it takes a very special kind of person to feel like that and go "You know what, what I feel like doing today is taking more heroin".

It's both. It's the drug and the person taking it.

Anything enjoyable can be addictive, some things are addictive to more people and some aren't.

Heroins at the top, addictive to a large number of people and very strongly so.

But not everyone, clearly not you. And that's probably mostly genetic. You probably literally aren't experiencing it the same as I do.

No, I didn't find it a slog. From the moment I tried it I wanted more. I've never stopped wanting it since.

Sure I felt bad over wasting money, I felt bad over pawning all my shit, I felt bad about losing it. I felt bad about stealing from other people, I felt bad about begging for money and winding up homeless and have everyone I knew stop trusting me and being arrested and losing my driver's license and prostituting myself just so I wouldn't be sick that night.

But I still kept doing it. No matter how many times I'd tell myself no, or this time it'll be different, or enough is enough.

That's essentially addiction. Not everyone is prone to it and not everyone is vulnerable to the same drugs.

But some are and when they are and when it really gets going whether that be sooner or later, they stop being able to exercise self control.

 

[JessFR]

Not blaming anyone chinup - just saying becoming a heroin addict is a full time occupation. Taking it every day for months and months when you arn't addicted to it is simply beyond most peoples capacity.

Read chasing the scream again - his point is heroin isn't addictive for the vast majority of people who take it.

It's impossible to say how many people it's addictive too. But if it's even addictive to just 0.01% of the population that is an enormous amount of destruction and lives ruined if everyone were trying it.

Be glad you're not vulnerable to it. You dodged a bullet. Cause there's really no way to know until you've tried it how you'll react.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Not blaming anyone chinup - just saying becoming a heroin addict is a full time occupation. Taking it every day for months and months when you arn't addicted to it is simply beyond most peoples capacity.

i was psychologically addicted. if you only consider addiction to be physical then crack shouldn't be addictive. i was addicted during that period and in denial cos i wouldn't get sick if when i didn't use. i don't understand how you think its possible to use a drug every day for months and not be addicted.

Read chasing the scream again - his point is heroin isn't addictive for the vast majority of people who take it.

so you missed everything about prohibition in there? people take different things from books. even at different times, i've read the unbearable lightness of being many times and find it being about something different each time. ditto most books i've read more than once.

 

[JessFR]

To be clear, when I say addiction, the way I use the word, there's no such thing as physical addiction or psychological addiction. There's just addiction.

And what addiction is is when for complex reasons of neurology and biochemistry your brain stops behaving rationally and starts justifying continued use of a drug or activity in spite or negative repercussions and a desire to stop.

It's nothing to do with dependence.

Heroins one of the worst because it's highly addictive relatively speaking and torturously dependence inducing.

 

[dalpat077]

Almost scared to put my hand up in class here... But just another two cents worth...

In my humble opinion: there's a difference between addiction (which could be construed as a habit) and physical dependence. Comments?

If I'm right then maybe that's where the distinction lies.

I'm probably one of those that would give it a bash and say nope. Not for me. Why? Because it's a downer as I understand it (as with any opiate as I understand it). And if it's anything even remotely like Fentanyl: well that's me out before we even get started.

But take somebody who is into that feeling and enjoys it and carries on "working at it" (and I can only assume that anybody that asks "Should I try Heroin" would be leaning in that direction and it would be their preference): well how long does it take before we're in physical dependence territory?

I mean to say: I know of more than one that's experienced withdrawal from daily use, over one single month period, of Tramadol for goodness sake. And not at heroic doses either. So in just putting two and two together: I don't see somebody using this stuff daily, enjoying it, and then simply walking away unscathed after a month or so (particularly not from IV use)?

Maybe the above more questions than statements of fact. Not sure. Just trying to put an alternate spin on the topic (as I see it).

 

[JessFR]

Almost scared to put my hand up in class here... But just another two cents worth...

In my humble opinion: there's a difference between addiction (which could be construed as a habit) and physical dependence. Comments?

If I'm right then maybe that's where the distinction lies.

I'm probably one of those that would give it a bash and say nope. Not for me. Why? Because it's a downer as I understand it (as with any opiate as I understand it). And if it's anything even remotely like Fentanyl: well that's me out before we even get started.

But take somebody who is into that feeling and enjoys it and carries on "working at it" (and I can only assume that anybody that asks "Should I try Heroin" would be leaning in that direction and it would be their preference): well how long does it take before we're in physical dependence territory?

I mean to say: I know of more than one that's experienced withdrawal from daily use, over one single month period, of Tramadol for goodness sake. And not at heroic doses either. So in just putting two and two together: I don't see somebody using this stuff daily, enjoying it, and then simply walking away unscathed after a month or so (particularly not from IV use)?

Maybe the above more questions than statements of fact. Not sure. Just trying to put an alternate spin on the topic (as I see it).

How long it takes for dependence to set in, at least with opioids, is highly variable. Some people can go a few years and still not be dependent. Some people show withdrawal within months.

It seems to vary a lot.

If you use daily though it's probably gonna be less time rather than more, but from the accounts I've heard it seems to vary a lot.

But dependence isn't addiction. Lots of substances cause dependence. You can become lethally dependant on substances like prednisone within weeks, but noone abuses prednisone because it's not addictive.

Conversely gambling is addictive but not dependence inducing.

The most dangerous drugs in terms of social destructiveness, alcohol, opioids, benzos, are often both highly addictive and dependency inducing.

 

[dalpat077]

How long it takes for dependence to set in, at least with opioids, is highly variable. Some people can go a few years and still not be dependent. Some people show withdrawal within months.

It seems to vary a lot.

If you use daily though it's probably gonna be less time rather than more, but from the accounts I've heard it seems to vary a lot.

But dependence isn't addiction. Lots of substances cause dependence. You can become lethally dependant on substances like prednisone within weeks, but noone abuses prednisone because it's not addictive.

Conversely gambling is addictive but not dependence inducing.

The most dangerous drugs in terms of social destructiveness, alcohol, opioids, benzos, are often both highly addictive and dependency inducing.

Nice explanation. Thanks.

For better or for worse, and as you well know, my only yardstick is Cocaine and Crack. Physical dependence after so many years? Nope. Psychological dependence: damn sure as hell. Hence my usually, possibly mistakenly, always making the distinction between habit (or let's call it psychological addiction) and physical dependence. But as which you've quite correctly now pointed out in a previous post: both are addictions. And from what I've seen and read on just these very forums: either, or both, can end up the same way.

Forgot about benzodiazepines though didn't I. I've heard it said and read that withdrawal from those little wonders can be as bad, if not worse, than alcohol and Heroin withdrawal. I cannot say that's my experience (although I know nothing of withdrawal when it comes to the two latter mentioned so again have no point of reference)?

I dunno. Maybe time to butt out given my lack of experience with this stuff (and how many times have I said this now? ).

But I'm steadfast on one thing: having these new age, and qualified to boot, experts advocating the adult and recreational use of any, possibly addictive, substance doesn't fit with me. And as they say in Congress: "the nays by far exceed the yays". That's good enough for me.

 

[JessFR]

If someone finds an addictive drug on their own, OK, fine, so be it. But don't help them.

There's a reason why when I advocate drug legalization I mention that I'd still ban advertising and competition, with the hard drugs like heroin that is.

Just because it could be less dangerous than it is doesn't mean it's not dangerous.

 

[dalpat077]

There's a reason why when I advocate drug legalization I mention that I'd still ban advertising and competition, with the hard drugs like heroin that is.

Totally off topic so I apologize upfront.

But that immediately made me think of the UK legalization thread i.e. one of the guidelines proposed by that organization (Transform) was the prohibition of Cocaine advertisements! Sorry but it made me cackle. I could just see it now i.e. different brands, colors, flavors, monthly specials, you get the idea!

 

[Ismene2]

It's impossible to say how many people it's addictive too. But if it's even addictive to just 0.01% of the population that is an enormous amount of destruction and lives ruined if everyone were trying it.

Be glad you're not vulnerable to it. You dodged a bullet. Cause there's really no way to know until you've tried it how you'll react.

Well, the first thing to say is that heroin doesn't destroy lives - illegal heroin destroys lives. If was prescribed by a doctor it would cost a tenner a kilo. Healthwise pure heroin is one of the safest drugs a human being can take. You can give it to babies and grannies with terminal cancer. Totally benign - incredibly so. It's even safe overdose wise - you take twice as much heroin as you usually take and you'll fall asleep for a few hours. Take twice as much paracetomol as you're suppposed to take and you'll destroy your liver. People on prescription heroin can lead healthy productive lives well into their 90s.

I think this idea of it being addictive because it's such a spectacular high that "no-one can resist" is tremendously overblown. A heroin high certainly wouldn't make my top ten of drug highs. It would be struggling to make the top 20. To put it in perspective:

A heroin high: Warm feeling in stomach, a bit floaty, your problems don't feel as serious. That's about it. And the second day the high isn't even as good as the first. You really want to take it every day for months on end in the knowledge that at some point it could get a physical grip on you?

Psychedelic high: Tremendous physical and mental euphoria - far, far greater than any heroin high anyone has ever had, you appreciate music in a way you never have in your life, feel at one with nature and the universe, lets you access your deepest emotions, lets you laugh like you've never laughed in your life. Not physically addictive.

I really can't understand this myth that heroin is some kind of "ultimate danger drug" and "take it once and you are doomed". Not even close. I think people are confusing DEA propaganda with reality.

 

[Ismene2]

How long it takes for dependence to set in, at least with opioids, is highly variable. Some people can go a few years and still not be dependent. Some people show withdrawal within months.

One thing Jess - if it wasn't illegal, if you were getting prescribed pure heroin from the doctor, would being dependent on it be a problem? You'd take your dose in the morning and go to work and live your life the same as everyone else. I know an elderly woman with health problems who has been prescribed morphine for years - she leads a totally normal life, maybe a bit of constipation. If she stops taking it suddently obviously she rattles but why would she stop taking it? Pure heroin isn't like alcohol that's slowly destroying your liver - heroin is totally benign on the body.

Blackmarket heroin cut with shit is going to cause problems sure, but heroin itself isn't.

 

[Jabberwocky]

would being dependent on it be a problem?

yes. opiates are known to be bad for a number of bodily systems- obviously you can't run ethical trials to find out the long term effects. but autopsies of long term heroin addicts have revealed significant differences, apparently their brains go mushy. a big concern for me is the impact on bone health, as i had osteopenia before getting addicted to heroin. so its not harmless.

also. you are not emotionally available, you don't process things normally. this impacts your life in subtler ways and certainly impacts your relationships. ffs i did not grieve a good friends death for over 5 years, til i got clean, cos i literally didn't feel it. that is not healthy. if you have children or a partner, it will significantly affect how you interact with them, and in the case of the former, their emotional development.