Stimulants D-Meth instead D-Amph for ADHD?

[Rectify]

I Had A Rough Time With My Bottle Of Desoxyn.

 

[Rectify]

But I Ate 29 × 10 mg meth.sulfate Rx pillz. Dolly Hated Me Ever Since.

 

[BadBoy377]

Do you think if you go over the top with it then it's harder on you when you do it again?

 

[Deleted member 594230]

Imo there exists fundamental misconceptions about the nature of ADHD which the public have adopted from the corporate healthcare system — the same system where pharmaceutical companies influence scientific research allowing them to establish (1) specific theories about ADHD and (2) studies which justify the use of their drugs as the only suitable option available. They also influence the material used to train & educate doctors who distribute their drugs (3). You could call this a "triple win" but it's for their benefit, not ours.

There's no denying that ADHD drugs provide significant temporary relief from symptoms but if you dig a little deeper into the underlying biochemistry and take the time to appreciate the nature of the complaints & issues that people on the drugs are having you might start to question the official ADHD narrative, including whether the approved treatments are truly the most appropriate solution.

I agree with you on the idea that ADHD isn’t really a disease, but more of a spectrum of metabolic, neurological, and stress-related states rather than a fixed brain disorder.

I’m also aware that dexamphetamine can have negative long-term effects even at therapeutic doses (such as dopamine downregulation and neurotoxicity). That’s why I’m cautious with it and only use it when I really need to do demanding cognitive work (studying, research, complex problem-solving). For basic work or reading I can manage well with caffeine + L-theanine, but dexamphetamine definitely makes harder work feel easier and more efficient.

I’m curious what you think about this:
Do you think the potential neurotoxicity of dexamphetamine can be meaningfully reduced by actively supporting the brain’s stress pathways, for example by limiting excitotoxicity (NMDA modulation, e.g. low-dose memantine) and reducing oxidative stress (astaxanthin + CoQ10)?

And if someone only uses dexamphetamine for truly demanding work, for example ~20 mg/day, 4× per week and takes a 1–2 week break every 2 months, do you think it’s still neurotoxic in that pattern of use?
Or do you think it can be used strategically without long-term damage?

 

[Allylbenzene]

I’m also aware that dexamphetamine can have negative long-term effects even at therapeutic doses (such as dopamine downregulation and neurotoxicity).

Do you think the potential neurotoxicity of dexamphetamine can be meaningfully reduced by actively supporting the brain’s stress pathways, for example by limiting excitotoxicity (NMDA modulation, e.g. low-dose memantine) and reducing oxidative stress (astaxanthin + CoQ10)?

Yes definitely. I'd propose these strategies to make the long-term use of amphetamine more sustainable:

• theanine (calms adrenals/cortisol/adrenaline via lowering ACTH, GABAergic, unregulates dopamine system via GDNF, regulates glutamate)
• agmatine (endogenous NMDA antagonist, α2-adrenergic agonist, anti-cortisol effects, multiple other mechanisms)
• magnesium (behaves like an NMDA antagonist, anti-excitotoxicity)
• thiamine (mitochondrial support)
• niacinamide (mitochondrial support)
• low-dose pregnenolone ("ultimate" anti-stress, protective substance)
• Something to balance amphetamines influence on the enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. I wrote about this here.

Regarding oxidative stress, antioxidants are useful but excessive use can be disruptive also. CoQ10 is a good one, natural vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) too. I'm less familiar with astaxanthin.

Btw an unexpected source of oxidative stress would be polyunsaturated fats. They oxidise fairly easily, including at body temperature, which produces harmful free radicals & toxic aldehydes (eg acrolein). The most common source of these fats is fish oil followed by nut oils and seed oils (with the exception of macadamia oil).

And if someone only uses dexamphetamine for truly demanding work, for example ~20 mg/day, 4× per week and takes a 1–2 week break every 2 months, do you think it’s still neurotoxic in that pattern of use?
Or do you think it can be used strategically without long-term damage?

I'd say yes, strategic use alongside proactive metabolic support and excitotoxicity mitigation. Including mitigating amphetamines effect on carbonic anhydrase which I covered in more detail in this post.

 

[quahog94]

You´re not the first person or the last to posit this question in the forums. Methamphetamine is cheaper and more plentiful than prescription stimulants. However, I´m of the opinion that it´s just not suitable for chronic, stable usage. I´ll try to explain.

Stimulants are on a spectrum of sorts in my head. On one end, you have Caffeine, on the other, Methamphetamine or something similar.

Caffeine no doubt has effects on our cognition. You could even say that a high dose of Caffeine can cause Euphoria if you are not tolerant to its effects. However, the stimulation of the mind comes with extensive peripheral stimulation. In short, Caffeine is self-limiting in how ¨high¨ a person can get on it. You can only handle so much caffeine before you´r contending with palpitations, tachycardia and anxiety.

Then you have Amphetamine. We are moving up the spectrum. You can get much higher on Amphetamine, but even still, higher dosages are going to limit the amount of Central Nervous Stimulation the user can tolerate. In simple terms, it is analogous to my Caffeine reference.

We keep moving up the spectrum and DextroMethamphetamine is pretty much at the top. You get much more of the Central Nervous Stimulation and less of the peripheral effects produced by less potent stimulants. This is why you see Meth users acting in a very characteristic way, dancing, strutting, jumpy and with stereolochomotion that makes them impossible to miss. This is a result of them just being overloaded with the flood of neurotransmitters to the point that they eventually break from reality and become fully psychotic.

Now, you can see why D-Methamphetamine is a great choice for getting as fucked up as you can possibly get. However, if you´re looking for something functional, that will give you the stimulation you need without constant fear of going over the edge of Meth and losing your shit, weaker stimulants just make more sense.

I know exactly zero people who decided to use Meth to treat their ADHD who then were able to pass their doctorate and become legendary in their field. I know dozens of people who have tried though. If you don´t feel like reading all of this, just know that Methamphetamine does not typically improve anyone´s life. It can make life more fun and exciting for a short while, but there is not an infinite supply of Dopamine. You hit a wall with tolerance and then flip flop between psychosis, anxiety and the itch of wanting to be high that you now, frustratingly cannot scratch.

I appreciate the concern but as someone with narcolepsy, ADHD, depression (not so severe, just lost all adult friends cus a zoomer in our orbit is a psychopath, no thoughts of harm), at least the quality gear I can get works. I take naltrexone to reduce the neurotoxicity cus I have it. I keep my doses low, 3 mg pervitin, 15 mg Panzerschokolade. Affects at that dose are similar to dextroamphetamine at higher IR doses, with the exception that methamphetamine appears to be a stronger SRA, hence more antidepressant properties. Doses in the 5-15 mg range, especially with naltrexone, seem to be perfectly suitable for therapy of ADHD, depression even. Of course I haven’t and would not recommend use profiles commonly seen, but this compound, along with its 3,4-Methylenedioxy counterpart seem to have more therapeutic value than tha scolds tend to credit them with.

If d-meth + naltrexone can be proven to significantly reduce dopaminergic neurotoxicity, as it should, then there’s no reason to restrict its application. It just works better than dextroamphetamine. Dextroamphetamine has incredibly dysphoric side effects in my experience as an ADHD kid especially with extended release.

 

[sixteenthnight]

I get Attentin (pharma d amph) for 2,2€ per 5mg pill. I take 15mg 5x a week so monthly costs are around 130€.

I can get D-Meth powder for 70€/g, so around 20€ monthly costs.

Some people claim that d meth is neurotoxic even on therapeutical dosages (that d-methylamphetamine damages parts and pieces in the dopamine and serotonin pathways)

But if that were true i dont think it would be fda approved. Should I switch to d meth because it costs a lot less?

Low dosages of d-meth are actually pretty similar to d-amph but seem to be more effective actually for ADHD, and caused less side effects imo. I would stick to only per oral use, ime 5mg worked well but even 2.5mg if I was taking it in combination with one of my other stimulants, even 1.25mg was effective at times in combination, dosed volumetrically of course. I'd say substituting 10mg of dextroamphetamine with 2.5mg of d-meth worked fine (in combination with 70mg vyvanse), even 5mg doses worked to substitute 10mg d-amph AND 70mg vyvanse, every 4 hours, albeit i was slightly more tired than usual and had dips between doses, but when taking an adequate dose (or in my case, in combination with other stimulants) 6 hrs of duration was achievable, the crash from it was useful in my opinion as it helped me calm down and go to sleep, wayyyyy better than sleeping after vyvanse thats for sure! I don't think you'd have any issues at all whatsoever with neurotoxicity at any therapeutic dosages, and experienced far less side effects compared to equivalent doses of d-amph or vyvanse, and it kicks in much faster and unlike d-amph it doesnt seem to get inhibited by citric acid/vitamin C ime. I wouldn't get any d-meth powder at all though, crystal only, no reason for them to sell powder at all unless theyre cutting/lacing it... Christ that price is high though compared to in the US!

 

[Mirage3000]

I know exactly zero people who decided to use Meth to treat their ADHD who then were able to pass their doctorate and become legendary in their field. I know dozens of people who have tried though.

WTF. I'm trying to do that!!! Been producing gold for a couple of weeks now .

 

[Cheradenine]

The seller claims 99.9% purity with a photo of lab testing. If I were to try it, I would strictly stick to low, therapeutic dosages and only take it orally.
Right now, d-amphetamine works well for me. But it seems reasonable to consider switching to something significantly cheaper if it does the same job.

In my country, Elvanse is available so I could get it for free with an ADHD diagnosis. I don’t really want Elvanse as it still leads to prolonged amphetamine exposure throughout the day, including times when dopamine signaling isn’t really needed (e.g. late evening or even when your asleep). That means more dopamine adaptation and tolerance over time. Attentin is approved only to children under 18, so getting it as an adult would require an off-label prescription, which I’m not sure I could get.

I understand the concern about abuse risk, but I honestly don’t think I would “slip” and start using it recreationally. If I wanted to get really high, I could already do that with Attentin.

If the abuse risk really is higher, even at therapeutic doses, then it wouldn’t be worth it to me. Ruining my life over saving 110 € obviously makes no sense, and in that case I’d stick with Attentin.

I’ve read a lot of mixed opinions about Desoxyn (methamphetamine). Some people claim it works better than any other ADHD medication and argue that it isn’t prescribed mainly because of stigma around meth. Others say it’s neurotoxic, while some claim that at low, therapeutic doses it’s pharmacologically very similar to Adderall or d-amphetamine.


If from a pharamalogical point d-amphetamine is simply the better and safer drug, then I would stay with it. But if methamphetamine and d-amphetamine are essentially the same in effectiveness and side effect wise at proper ADHD dosages, then I don’t see a strong reason not to at least consider trying it.

Your logic about duration is weird. Yes Lisdexamphetamine has a long duration. But so does methamphetamine too. My experience with street speed (god knows if it was amphetamine or methamphetamine) was a longer duration that with Lisdexamphetamine.

Beyond this I think Keif Richards has a very important point. When it is possible to up the euphoria by taking a larger dose it becomes extremely tempting. I would not be comfortable taking anything with a higher ceiling than d-amph due to the addiction potential.

 

[Leprechaun]

I know exactly zero people who decided to use Meth to treat their ADHD who then were able to pass their doctorate and become legendary in their field. I know dozens of people who have tried though. If you don´t feel like reading all of this, just know that Methamphetamine does not typically improve anyone´s life. It can make life more fun and exciting for a short while, but there is not an infinite supply of Dopamine. You hit a wall with tolerance and then flip flop between psychosis, anxiety and the itch of wanting to be high that you now, frustratingly cannot scratch.

I know a few, in fact some of them are blue lighters.

 

[tryptakid]

I take both decedrine and desoxyn. I change my rx month to month and use them for different purposes.

Meth is better for a more fluid focus (less rigid, but also less stimulating at therapeutic doses)

Dexamp is better if I need to be charged up and locked in to one thing, but it can make task switching more challenging.

Often I will use 5mg meth, 10mg dexamp.

 

[Mirage3000]

I've had severe drug problems in the past. Don't do anything now, except DMT or LSD here and there. But the workload I face these days, I "had to" do something. I have d-amph and d-meth at hand.

Meth is better for a more fluid focus (less rigid, but also less stimulating at therapeutic doses)

Dexamp is better if I need to be charged up and locked in to one thing, but it can make task switching more challenging.

I find this to be true. I tried both meth and amp for analysis work, meth works better somehow. I do 10 mg (these are street drugs, not excatly sure purity). I can't confidently speak for the quality of my work, but the amount of time I can spend in front of the computer, writing, reading, and keeping my behavior on task before my brain is fried for the day is highly amplified!

Been keeping a good pace for almost three weeks. Dosing every day. Sleeping weel every day. But still, maybe feeling the tempo and the ability (perceived problem solving skill) stagnating a bit last two days. Not sure if its an obstacle of the assignment or maybe something to do with supplementation.

 

[fuckabout89]

I would like too try some pure Dex Amp no vyvanse just pure Dex Amph no added bullshit too it.

 

[drewbocop]

I get Attentin (pharma d amph) for 2,2€ per 5mg pill. I take 15mg 5x a week so monthly costs are around 130€.

I can get D-Meth powder for 70€/g, so around 20€ monthly costs.

Some people claim that d meth is neurotoxic even on therapeutical dosages (that d-methylamphetamine damages parts and pieces in the dopamine and serotonin pathways)

But if that were true i dont think it would be fda approved. Should I switch to d meth because it costs a lot less?

When it comes to methamphetamine, for me, the issue doesn't lie in potential long-term neurotoxicity, price, or any of that... it's that it:

1. Lasts too long, making split dosing difficult. They claim Desoxyn may be dosed every 4 to 8 hours (if I remember correctly) vs. Adderall IR's every 4 to 6 hours. That seems off to me. If i took a second Desoxyn 4 hours after my first dose, I would start to feel spun. And if I took it 8 hours after my first dose, I would be up all night. Guaranteed. It's more like 8 to 12 hours in my personal experience, and even then I have residual effects for several more hours, and that makes it tricky. So you'd likely wind up taking a higher dose all at once first thing in the morning. But then, let's say you get to sleep in. Shit, woke up at 12 noon. Now you either have to skip your meds for the day or commit to staying up later and praying you're not too stimulated for bed by the next morning. Then again, with that being said, I've never taken only 5mg of methamphetamine, or 10 for that matter. Maybe that does leave you within 8 hours.

2. It's insanely efficient at dumping dopamine. This is the big one for me. Meth, again if I remember correctly, releases somewhere around 4-6x as much dopamine than dextroamphetamine. More euphoric, more stimulating, harder crashes, and longer recovery. Not your grandmammy's stimulant. I think for the vast majority of ADHD sufferers, this is overkill, and over time will greatly increase the likelihood of negative side effects or abuse. I know me, and I know how bad I want to abuse regular amphetamine, so I know exactly what would happen having a bunch of tiny little meth pills in front of me. I'd have no tiny little meth pills left and circles under my eyes 1 week out of every month.

As far as what I would prefer, what I know I could get prescribed from this ridiculous medical system and my particular psychiatrist, costs, and overall ability to meet my needs in terms of treating ADHD and NOT recreation, I would choose 40mgd of Dexedrine over 10mgd of Desoxyn any freaking day of the week. If you could even convince them to give you 2 pills per day... after you somehow managed to get it at all. I've only known 2 people in my almost 4 decades on this planet that have been prescribed Desoxyn. One of them has autism, severe ADHD, a 160 IQ, and a disease that is killing him. The other was a boomer clear back in the early 2000s.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Interesting stuff. I've come across few people in my day who receive a Methamphetamine Rx. Definitely interesting @tryptakid.

I want to make the point regarding pharmaceuticals as opposed to street drugs. I feel it is a very important phenomenon that it is easy to gloss over. When you have say, a gram of Methamphetamine gotten from the street or wherever. Our logical brains are going to say, "it's easy, perhaps I will just measure out 5mg doses, every time, no cheating". That sounds perfectly reasonable. A human should be capable of pulling it off if we put our minds to it. In practice, it rarely goes that way. I can't sit here and tell a person "you are incapable, you are too weak". I just cannot do that. However, I feel the addictive nature of the drug, combined with the relative difficulty of measuring out such small doses, people make mistakes, they decide not to measure once or twice, just eyeball it because maybe you're in a rush.

I am not a "stimulant guy" I guess, but I've used them enough and moreover known enough users of Methamphetamine that I would advise people to not fuck with Meth at all if they desire stability. I feel it is a world away, still not easy, when you get a bottle of 28 5mg Methamphetamine tablets as opposed to a random bag of Methamphetamine. You also have no idea of purity, either in terms of Amphetamine content or contamination with other substances. It is not wicked common, but to say Fentanyl never ends up in Methamphetamine is not correct. It happens enough that anyone who cares about stability in their life should steer clear of it.

@Mirage3000 I know you're not really asking for it, but I have to say this. You mentioned having severe drug problems in the past. You also describe having a solid couple of weeks without issues. I get that. I wish I could come at you with something scientific. I just have to say, as someone who knows and cares about you, that fucking around with this shit is unlikely to bring you anywhere you want to go. It's not uncommong to make it several weeks or even months using Meth effectively. You might be doing great at work, killing it in your personal life, the life of the party even. It is much more common for the wheels to eventually fall off completely.

I hate to be such a cliche bastard here, but you will have to pay for everything that the drug gives you. It's pretty simple math that we all are familiar with. The increase in energy, the good neurotransmitters coursing through your body, the seeming ability to master your life with time to spare... you pay it back. Sometimes you pay way more back; losing a relationship, a job or something else. Whatever you think you're going to get from this drug, it is the very definition of a Faustian bargain. If you stop while you'e ahead, address the issue and take a couple of days to sleep, you can stop this before it gets out of hand. It gets out of hand fast for people without previous addictions. This is not you.

Addictive drugs kill our good-decision-making skills and we really don't want to admit it while the good feelings are going strong. The act of using Amphetamines properly with an already-established addictive personality means doing it by the book every single time, never making mistakes, never taking an extra dose... EVER. The first time, after a month or two that you decide to "cheat" a little bit; your internal dialogue will call it a one-time thing. When you make a hole in the dam though, it's inevitable that the whole thing is going to fail.

Having pre-packaged dosing units; I've talked about this at length over the years, is more relevant than people give it credit for. When it's a bag of powder, what's just one more little flake? Again, the addictive qualities of these substances are going to have you taking the extra flake every time.

I don't want anyone to feel like I feel I know everything. I don't, but when I see someone who clearly cares about his life and responsibilities, with a history of addiction and knowing the destructive capabilities of this drug, I had to say this.

 

[Mirage3000]

@Keif' Richards Yes. You deliver all good points, and you are right, of course. I was a bit stricken by the seriousness of my choices from reading your reply. I felt it, and still feel it in my gut. Thank you for that. I'll save you explanations and rationalisations.

I am flattered by the content and thoroughness of your response!

​

 

[Keif' Richards]

Cool, I'm so glad it meant something to you. Coincidentally, I was just in another thread with an individual trying to figure out how to come off a moderately-high Methamphetamine habit without losing his job etc. I have put a little bit of thought and time into his situation and I'd be totally happy to help you out too. Sometimes you don't even need a rocket scientist, you just need someone to help conduct things a little bit, as it is a confusing time for anyone. Anyway, I'm happy to help if you want it. I am fairly confident I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Mirage3000]

I'll be allright! But it is really nice knowing I have some solid support in this forum! Nice discovery, unexpected I must say. Been reading around for a few days now. A lot of cool readings.

 

[sh1vambuDancer]

I get Attentin (pharma d amph) for 2,2€ per 5mg pill. I take 15mg 5x a week so monthly costs are around 130€.

I can get D-Meth powder for 70€/g, so around 20€ monthly costs.

Some people claim that d meth is neurotoxic even on therapeutical dosages (that d-methylamphetamine damages parts and pieces in the dopamine and serotonin pathways)

But if that were true i dont think it would be fda approved. Should I switch to d meth because it costs a lot less?

honestly, I've got ADHD and i don't do "meds"*.

changing your diet, and introducing regular hardcore exercise, and then self massage & yoga practices are essential..

ADHD is mostly caused by severe neuroinflammation in developmental years, so, reduce inflammation,
with a non-toxic species-specific diet;
no grains, no fried foods, no flesh, no bsdly combined meals, plenty of fruit, nuts, seeds, & ideally no cooked food at some point of your health journey. but 20% is permissible, and it won't hold ya back in any way.

herbal supplements, & yoga, and HIIT exercise are fucking essential though.
inner work vs. relying on drugs.

it's very very worth it.

* fuck big pharma (especially tweaking all day 24/7)...nature provides

 

[Cheradenine]

Some people claim that d meth is neurotoxic even on therapeutical dosages (that d-methylamphetamine damages parts and pieces in the dopamine and serotonin pathways)
But if that were true i dont think it would be fda approved.

I think you are a bit naive if you assume that neurotoxicity automatically would bar FDA approval. You should view this from a psychiatrist's perspective. All stimulants are potentially harmful. Furthermore, the harm potential for a particular individual is unpredictable. I know people who had permanent psychosis triggered by large doses of amphetamine and I have read about people who developed psychosis from only a few prescription doses of ritalin. Then there are the cardiovascular issues, addiction potential, and short-term benefits versus long-term harm. A psychiatrist will have this risk picture in mind when deciding whether to prescribe a drug. In most cases they will land on the conclusion that the risks associated with extended release methylphenidate, lisdexamphetamine or maybe adderal are acceptable. The risks associated with desoxyn/methamphetamine may also be acceptable, but only if ADHD symptoms are so crippling that the patient simply cannot function without medication, and, presumably, if also the former alternatives were not sufficient. In these very extreme cases (maybe 1 promille of all ADHD cases) a psychiatrist, and the FDA, may be willing to experiment with methamphetamine as a last resort despite its stronger neurotoxicity.