Opioids Bupe and the invisible bars

[starfarer]

As some of you may remember, I had a little DHC habit going a year or so back. This spiralled way outa control this year at university (Liverpool) and I had no other choice but to go onto bupe.
Im on pure buprenorphine at the moment, and initially it was the mother of all cures I was stimulated, calm and most importantly withdrawal free. Even my moods began to stabilise right out, which was a huge boon for me given my anxiety.
Few months on however and the opiate cravings are back with a vengeance. Its not a physical craving necessarily, but an emotional/psychological one manifesting itself physically. In fact its an emotion I have never been subjected to ever, sort of like a deep down violent longing - its a profoundly human emotion, not like one that which you'd expect from a chemical.
Im using naltrexone on the ultra low at the moment and its working wonders as i've bumped down 1mg with little discernible effect and as I type im still "buzzing" from a dose taken almost 12 hours ago. I have noticed that 1/2 mg feels like 1.5mg in intensity and even duration which has stumped me somewhat.
The issue is I cant get back to the old days since Bupe is squatting on those receptors and no amount of full agonism is gonna change that. Ive considered stopping the bupe and dosing with a high potency opioid to fill the cracks so to speak and slowly but surely increasing the dose until im off the bupe and onto the full agonist. My theory is that it will occupy the free receptors and the remaining bupe will remain on already triggered receptors. As time goes by the ration of FA to Bupe will sway to the left.
I am aware my tolerance has shot up like a bitch, and im almost double where I was, however I have a sensationally cheap provider and so cost doesn't factor into it 8) though how long that will last is anyone's guess.
I'm glad I went onto the bupe as I was in a situation where my anxiety levels were kicking my ass to the curb and I had to kick DHC. There was no way I was ever going to manage both. At least this way i've been able to go at my own pace.

Oh and its good to be back guys - i've missed BL for real :D

 

[axe battler]

Do you still get a little high from doing .5mg bupe? If so, how long have you been on it?

The DHC will do little or nothing when on bupe. Maybe stop taking it altogether until you're in full bupe WD's and then take it.

However, I regard bupe to be far superior to DHC recreationally. Without a tolerance a 1mg line will have me feeling really good for 6 hours or more, slowly fading after that, whereas 300-400mg of DHC will provide roughly the same high but only for 3-5 hours max.

I know everyone's different but it seems quite backwards to take bupe for DHC withdrawals, and to crave DHC whilst on recreational doses (.5-2mg) of bupe.

If you're not talking about getting back on DHC, and are referring to stronger opioids, then I would advise you strongly reconsider.

Maybe take a couple of days break from the bupe and then have a little holiday, go back into WD's, and then either get back on bupe or quit altogether--perhaps using opiates occasionally if you want to.

I'm not really clear what your question is though so forgive me if I have missed the point of your post entirely.

 

[kanyeknievel]

I didnt have time to read the whole post ,so if my answer is irrelevant im sorry im in a rush .

But if uve been on bupe for a few months and ur getting more cravings you should ask ur doc or if u get them on the street, go to a higher dose that will stabalize you again

 

[DeLee]

Are you actually wanting to get effect from "regular opioids" again or did i read your post wrong?
If so just stop the bupe and when you start getting withdrawals for real (it tends to take around 48h to really start to WD) and then use a real opioid and you can get effect.

I might have read the whole post wrong though..

 

[StaffWriter]

I read this as you wanting to get back on full agonists rather than the bupe and the fact that the bupe has made your tolerance much higher is making it hard for you to get maximum effects from DHC. Your problem was getting on bupe to get off of DHC, which is totally backward thinking. Bupe is soo much stronger than DHC and you should never have used it unless you were doing a quick taper. So basically you're stuck on a stronger drug than the one you were on initially. Basically you're going to have to go bupe-free for a while to get your tolerance down. As for the naltrexone, I'm not sure how it plays in this scenario. Can you please clarify your question?

 

[starfarer]

Well im sort of asking whether it would be feasible to replace the bupe with a full agonist slowly, filling empty receptors until i'm fully agonised as t'were. I have little choice but to use oxymorphone at the moment as I can get it manufactured by a kindly contact of mine in bulk at low prices.
The Naltrexone is being used by me to lower my tolerance. It skyrocketed once I stopped using it in the past and its now almost halved thanks to it. I've gone from 2.5mg to 1.5 mg, and i'll be taking off .5 soon. Im also going for proglumide therapy via proglumetacin, which reduced my tolerance in the past by 3/4.
One viable route would be ibogaine therapy. Ive been considering it for some time and im going to be having an MDMA evening with a friend next week which seems like the ideal time&setting.
I agree that bupe is a stronger drug, but I had no other choice. I was never going to quit under the circumstances and I needed something free which would stop me constantly fretting about my next dose. Its fulfilled that purpose and my tolerance is rapidly dimminishing with the Naltrex and soon the proglumide. Ive always recommended them as I have had nothing but the most exceptional results from them. Not only do they stop tolerance rising (I remained on the same DHC dose for months on end without any change) but they cause it to drop like a stone as in my case. Going from 2.5 to 1.5 is quite incredible and equates to a large quantity of an opiate like Morphine.

 

[Znegative]

I've never done DHC but I cant imagine that any opiate or opioid that you cant inject will do much, unless you pop or sniff some roxi or oxy or opana.

Yesterday it was insane. I ended up shooting mephedrone with my friends and one of them gave me a bag of dope (of which earlier I had found her unconscious in her car and got so scared that I called 911). I figured if she whent out that hard, I'd probably feel the heroin even over 16 mg of sub, so I loaded up and BANG, by god the rush I felt, and the high! it was like i was never ever on suboxone, i felt like a virgin being gently made love to by a beautiful beast.

Hence, you can break through any ammount of sub, but if your drug of choice isn't as least as strong as morphine, I imagine it would take a ton of pills to get you where you want to be.

 

[starfarer]

Yeah I agree with you Z its possible but costly to break through. I mean one could do that for a period of time and slowly wean themselves off the subs and onto the new opiate. Im interested in doing this in order to limit the time spent in withdrawals.
Sub withdrawals go on forever and tapering is just like water torture. However if I were to substitute with another opiate and transfer my dependance I believe that I could reduce withdrawal time to 3-4 days with most other opiates, rather than several weeks
Within those 3 4 days I would essentially unplug my brain from the mains, loperamide and weed with perhaps a generous helping of benzos. The naltrexone indubitably helps, for instance last time I quit I had no withdrawals at all, and I was on a fairly hefty DHC regimen. I was using >20 mg of Loperamide but that wouldnt be enough to make even a fair sized dent in that kind of habit.
Anyways im rambling like a madman - all im saying is that 4 days is easier to manage than 2 weeks.

 

[adder]

Forgive me this curiosity but it's important for me. You've been given buprenorphine for a DHC addiction? (I'm moving to the UK soon and I need to get on temporal Methadone Maintenance Treatment for foreigners)

 

[starfarer]

No worries Adder. Yeah I was addicted to DHC when I went onto the bupe. I would advise bupe over methadone any day though simply because bupe is far less harsh on the body, and tolerance to bupe doesn't usually rise, unlike methadone.
Whereabouts in the UK will you be? Im near London at the moment.

 

[Pegasus]

My personal opinion is that using DHC for maintenance in a DHC dependent person and just tapering that is much more logical... Bupe is undoubtedly stronger than DHC!


Dihydrocodeine is a good choice for a maintenance opiate in my opinion and is used in this way in some countries. I'm not sure if this was practical for you, I was really commenting more on the medical practice in this scenario...

 

[starfarer]

I agree yes, however I was originally tapering from the DHC with a doctor. After failing several times (I was supplementing my dose when it was pushed down due to the need to retreat to the ivory tower)I decided to give up since it would soon have become impractical. With the bupe I had the oppurtunity to remain stable whereas my doctor was aggresively forcing me down.

 

[comatoserct]

if you want to get back on a full agonist, it is certainly possible to stop dosing your bupe and either wait 24-48 hours to dose a full agonist, or just keep dosing your full agonist until it's effects take hold. it's not going to put you in withdrawal, you'll just be wasting good drugs until the bupe loosens its tight grip on those receptors

you said you have a source for oxymorphone, but it seems like a shady situation if your "friend" can "manufacture" it for you. if it's not oxymorphone from a pharmaceutical company, such as some recent "homebake" recipes people are doing with oxycodone, you are putting your body at some serious risk. but I suppose it's no worse than people shooting up god knows what when they pick up a sack of heroin.

now, on to the point of tolerance. you have the right idea with the naltrexone, but if you are taking it now whilst currently on bupe, it's doing absolutely nothing and you are wasting pills. that is why narcan is ineffective in, albeit rare (but still possible), bupe overdoses.

if you plan on using naltrexone to lower your tolerance while still using a full agonist, check out this thread. it is effective, but in the MICROgram range. that's a seriously ultra low dose, which is going to be hard to measure out evenly for daily usage.

another thread you might want to check out is this one, which talks about using NMDA antagonists, such as DXM, ketamine, and memantine to lower one's tolerance to opiates.

best of luck to you

 

[starfarer]

Cheers for the heads up Comatoserct those links are goldmines. Im not sure what you mean by the NLTX being ineffective with the Bupe. My experience says otherwise. I've managed to chop my use in half more or less within a matter of days. I was previously on 3 mg which decreased to 2.5 and thence to 1.5mg which is quite and achievement over a 1-2 week period. That can be attributed to NLTX in my humble opnion.
The oxymorphone is pharmaceutically manufactured. My friend owns a pharm production lab that he inherited from his late father, consequently he is able to produce pretty much whatever he wishes. The only problem i'll have is measuring out the powder myself unless I can get him to do that for me which I highly doubt as he is already in a precarious situation. Mg scales are over 200 so that's not an option, only other way is to play it by ear - sounds fun :D

 

[starfarer]

Cheers for the heads up Comatoserct those links are goldmines. Im not sure what you mean by the NLTX being ineffective with the Bupe. My experience says otherwise. I've managed to chop my use in half more or less within a matter of days. I was previously on 3 mg which decreased to 2.5 and thence to 1.5mg which is quite and achievement over a 1-2 week period. That can be attributed to NLTX in my humble opnion.
The oxymorphone is pharmaceutically manufactured. My friend owns a pharm production lab that he inherited from his late father, consequently he is able to produce pretty much whatever he wishes. The only problem i'll have is measuring out the powder myself unless I can get him to do that for me which I highly doubt as he is already in a precarious situation. Mg scales are over 200 so that's not an option, only other way is to play it by ear - sounds fun :D

 

[jamesBrown]

No worries Adder. Yeah I was addicted to DHC when I went onto the bupe. I would advise bupe over methadone any day though simply because bupe is far less harsh on the body, and tolerance to bupe doesn't usually rise, unlike methadone.
Whereabouts in the UK will you be? Im near London at the moment.

I have found this to be quite untrue. Bupe is an extremely potent drug and tolerance to it rises just like any other opiate would.

 

[jctoona84]

if you want to get back on a full agonist, it is certainly possible to stop dosing your bupe and either wait 24-48 hours to dose a full agonist, or just keep dosing your full agonist until it's effects take hold. it's not going to put you in withdrawal, you'll just be wasting good drugs until the bupe loosens its tight grip on those receptors

you said you have a source for oxymorphone, but it seems like a shady situation if your "friend" can "manufacture" it for you. if it's not oxymorphone from a pharmaceutical company, such as some recent "homebake" recipes people are doing with oxycodone, you are putting your body at some serious risk. but I suppose it's no worse than people shooting up god knows what when they pick up a sack of heroin.

now, on to the point of tolerance. you have the right idea with the naltrexone, but if you are taking it now whilst currently on bupe, it's doing absolutely nothing and you are wasting pills. that is why narcan is ineffective in, albeit rare (but still possible), bupe overdoses.

if you plan on using naltrexone to lower your tolerance while still using a full agonist, check out this thread. it is effective, but in the MICROgram range. that's a seriously ultra low dose, which is going to be hard to measure out evenly for daily usage.

another thread you might want to check out is this one, which talks about using NMDA antagonists, such as DXM, ketamine, and memantine to lower one's tolerance to opiates.

best of luck to you

Homebake oxy what? you have my attention. I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[starfarer]

^^ with bupe + NLTX my tolerance has remained level and is actually falling as I type. Whereas before 3mg just about held me, i'm now on 1.5mg and have adjusted swimmingly. Imight add that Bupe tolerance doesn't seem to rise as rapidly as say H tolerance from my experience. This just my personal experience however.
^ It is possible to homebake any drug as long as you have the chemical know how and the facilities. From what i've seen oxy is particularly finicky, but is indeed possible.

 

[adder]

No worries Adder. Yeah I was addicted to DHC when I went onto the bupe. I would advise bupe over methadone any day though simply because bupe is far less harsh on the body, and tolerance to bupe doesn't usually rise, unlike methadone.
Whereabouts in the UK will you be? Im near London at the moment.

I'm going to be in London or somewhere near the city as well. I've heard that there's no problem with drug maintenance in the UK as the country is actually flooded with bupe and methadone. Here in Poland there is no way for a foreigner (even from the EU) to get buprenorphine (Suboxone is the only form used) or methadone because few programs we have are full and they have long waiting lists for local patients.

I've already tried buprenorphine and sadly it doesn't do the job for me, a lot of withdrawal effects stayed unless I took high doses. I know nobody is going to schedule me with such doses of buprenorphine a day, it's Poland. It's different with methadone, maybe because it's been available the longest here and Suboxone has been available for just a few years. And it's easier with methadone for one more reason, I've been on it for a over year now (I switched from buprenorphine in February '10).

From what I know I need a paper from a doctor that I may bring in my methadone to the UK and a paper stating I'm treated with methadone so I can go to some program in London and apply for acceptance for a treatment there. If I were to look for treatment from the start in the UK, I would have to take some methadone with me anyway and I would have no paper from a doctor. So basically, it would be illegal to bring in methadone and I dose twice a day so I'd be in withdrawal before I'd get to London. I don't want any problems right from the start. I just want to accomplish in the UK what I couldn't have here. I want to finish studies, I want to live normally on methadone from the program (I will ride to Warsaw and tell a doctor I'm immigrating in days and I don't actually need Polish methadone because I've got mine for survival), I want to get a job, pay taxes, and live like a normal person who has some problems but they're no problems you can't solve. Right now and right here I've got plenty of ridiculous problems that can't be solved because it's Poland.