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changing metabolism of nutmeg= different metabolites & effects?

Jamshyd said:
Quite frankly, I don't think most people here care much about the subtle differences between the subjective effects of toxic doses of household spices.
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if those people don't care then they shouldn't read/post in this thread.
 
I was replying to the one or three complaints as to why no one has replied with info yet.
 
Frankly, I don't think experimentation with allylbenzenes is safe at all.

Allylbenzenes like safrole (and myristicin, elemicin, eugenol, et cetera) have been shown to cause tumors in rats. Furthermore, even if this is not applicable to humans, these compounds are known in the literature to be hepatotoxic to some degree. You're simply poisoning yourself with toxic compounds to get a high that is really not comparable to better, safer, more widely used drugs.




(Source: ScienceDirect: Toxic properties of compounds related to safrole)
 
^ even if they are being metabolized into less toxic substances?

*also, i told a friend of mine about the combo so he tried it ang got the same effects i got. he had also tried nutmeg alone and said there was a huge difference in effects.
 
StaySedated said:
well i tried nutmeg with some black pepper and it made the effects completely different.
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I agree, tried this combo, with beef and potatoes, and had a completely different experience than nutmeg alone, TR later.
 
Almost everyone(including myself) seems to say that the nutmeg high is similar to cannabis... I wonder why no researcher has tested whether a cannabinoid antagonist such as SR141716 would negate the effect of nutmeg in experimental animals. In my own experience, taking the 5HT2A antagonist risperidone before taking nutmeg doesn't eliminate any of the psychoactive effects. So probably the effect of nutmeg isn't mediated by 5HTA2-receptors, like the myristicin -> MMDA hypothesis would suggest.
 
polymath said:
Almost everyone(including myself) seems to say that the nutmeg high is similar to cannabis... I wonder why no researcher has tested whether a cannabinoid antagonist such as SR141716 would negate the effect of nutmeg in experimental animals. In my own experience, taking the 5HT2A antagonist risperidone before taking nutmeg doesn't eliminate any of the psychoactive effects. So probably the effect of nutmeg isn't mediated by 5HTA2-receptors, like the myristicin -> MMDA hypothesis would suggest.
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5-HT antagonists don't really completely block out psychedelic's effects...

"Thorazine and other major tranquillizers are not specific neutralizers of the LSD effect. Used in high dosages, they have a general inhibiting effect that overrides and masks the psychedelic action of LSD. Detailed retrospective analysis of this situation usually shows that the patient experiences the action of both drugs simultaneously, and that the combined effect is rather unpleasant."
-- Stan Grof, LSD Psychotherapy
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- from Erowid Psychedelic Crisis FAQ

thorazine and risperidone have similar mechanisms of action on blocking serotonin receptors. the fact that risperidone didn't block nutmeg's effects doesn't prove anything for sure, and you didn't mention if you took the nutmeg with black pepper(which gave much more psychedelic effects).
 
^^
I didn't take the nutmeg with black pepper... How much pepper did you use yourself? Doesn't that have a stomach irritant effect at large doses? I wouldn't like to irritate my stomach as some time ago after binge drinking for 3 days I puked black bloody vomit...
 
polymath said:
^^
I didn't take the nutmeg with black pepper... How much pepper did you use yourself? Doesn't that have a stomach irritant effect at large doses? I wouldn't like to irritate my stomach as some time ago after binge drinking for 3 days I puked black bloody vomit...
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a few grams of black pepper. to my suprise it actually didn't bother my stomach at all and it wasn't hard to get down(i just put it in water). i would actually say the black pepper kind of settled my stomach after ingesting all the nutmeg.
 
it is stated that allylbenzenes are metabolized in rats and other subjects (dont beleive human studies have been done) to some pretty nasty products via the route of dihydrosulifid and epoxy metabolites cause hepatoxicity, now knowing that i wouldnt proceed but someones got to, lets keep this thread running and see what we can figure out. we need to analyze urine samples for mmda and such. does anyone know if mmda is further broken down in the body or is it just excreted, isnt a pratial metabolite of MDMA, MDA? in that thinking would mmda possibly metabolize to mda?
 
blessedamines said:
it is stated that allylbenzenes are metabolized in rats and other subjects (dont beleive human studies have been done) to some pretty nasty products via the route of dihydrosulifid and epoxy metabolites cause hepatoxicity, now knowing that i wouldnt proceed but someones got to, lets keep this thread running and see what we can figure out. we need to analyze urine samples for mmda and such. does anyone know if mmda is further broken down in the body or is it just excreted, isnt a pratial metabolite of MDMA, MDA? in that thinking would mmda possibly metabolize to mda?
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MMDA could cause a positive for MDMA or amphetamines, if one of the metabolites is MMDA. we still have no clue what nutmeg + black pepper metabolizes into...
 
MDMA is metabolized to MDA, and that is a removal of N-methyl. The conversion of MMDA to MDA would be a removal of a methoxy group at the phenyl ring, and that would be a much more unlikely reaction...
 
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StaySedated said:
5-HT antagonists don't really completely block out psychedelic's effects...



- from Erowid Psychedelic Crisis FAQ

thorazine and risperidone have similar mechanisms of action on blocking serotonin receptors. the fact that risperidone didn't block nutmeg's effects doesn't prove anything for sure, and you didn't mention if you took the nutmeg with black pepper(which gave much more psychedelic effects).
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Thorazine is a typical antipsychotic; it only affects dopamine receptors. Atypical antipsychotics like quetiapine will block the effects of LSD; typical antipsychotics like haloperidol will not.
 
yes MDMA metabolizes to MDA and doesnt it also get excreted as MDMA as well theres not a total metabolism?
so mmda has a methoxy group at what position on the ring? is that the 3 position? since mdma is bonded at the 4,5?
there wouldnt be any metabolism of the methoxy group? why is that?
 
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I have heard that as much as 60% of mdma gets excreted unchanged
 
someone could eat loads of nutmeg and get their urine analysed looking for the phenylpropanone and any amine metabolites, I think the whole idea is somewhat unlikely and that the toxic delerium caused by nutmeg is caused directly by myristicin and safrole.
 
blessedamines said:
yes MDMA metabolizes to MDA and doesnt it also get excreted as MDMA as well theres not a total metabolism?
so mmda has a methoxy group at what position on the ring? is that the 3 position? since mdma is bonded at the 4,5?
there wouldnt be any metabolism of the methoxy group? why is that?
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I guess it would be more likely that the methoxy is converted to a hydroxy group in the liver. Yes, it's in the 3-position.
 
vecktor said:
someone could eat loads of nutmeg and get their urine analysed looking for the phenylpropanone and any amine metabolites, I think the whole idea is somewhat unlikely and that the toxic delerium caused by nutmeg is caused directly by myristicin and safrole.
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we're not just talking about nutmeg alone, we talking about changing its metabolism by ingesting it with black pepper.

black pepper contains piperidine and other drugs that could change the metabolism and/or structure of the compounds in nutmeg if ingested together.

nutmeg + black pepper has given distinct psychedelic effects every time i've taken then and a friend tried it after i told him and he got the same psychedelic effects i did. the effects without black pepper are greatly different in my experiments.
 
well to see if piperidine is acting on certain enzymes inhibiting or hibiting certain functions is well beyond us on bluelight and would require knowledge and equipment of a certain degree, so all we can do is speculate, and honestly i really dont know how piperidine would act on theses enzymes and there direct mechanics, my hypothesis would be that its a combined effect of the two components, who knows they could be having a synergistic effect.
 
(ok, so a probable route of metabolizm would be what for mrysticin? campared to the drug MMDA that is a possible metabolite of Mrysticin?)being that myristicin having a methyl grouping on the methoxy on the 3 position of the ring, and instead of there being a primary amine there is a methylene grouping instead??? whats the probability of having those reduce in the body? POLYMATH stated that the probable route for the methyl group to metabolize to a hydroxide.
 
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