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changing metabolism of nutmeg= different metabolites & effects?

Just popping in to say that I did the same dose of elemi today but without the pepper (dosed 7 hours ago) and I've only felt a bit stimulated and "weird", a bit besides myself basically, not euphoric, sedated or at all in a psychedelic headspace. I'll wait a few days and try it again with the pepper. I expect to trip then.
 
basement_shaman said:
Just popping in to say that I did the same dose of elemi today but without the pepper (dosed 7 hours ago) and I've only felt a bit stimulated and "weird", a bit besides myself basically, not euphoric, sedated or at all in a psychedelic headspace. I'll wait a few days and try it again with the pepper. I expect to trip then.
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so far it seems as if my theory is correct, do post your next experience.
 
Not to be a complete negative nancy, but your theory won` t be correct unless you can determine the exact chemical mechanism for what you think is happening, and somehow prove that it actually works in vivo using proper data, not anecdotal reports. This can all still be explained by placebo.

Even if a drug test flags positive for amphetamines, there could be amphetamine-like metabolites that cause false positives without having any noticeable pharmacological effect. Their presence proves nothing. Again, not to be overly negative - just trying to help you figure it out.
 
Inedible said:
Not to be a complete negative nancy, but your theory won` t be correct unless you can determine the exact chemical mechanism for what you think is happening, and somehow prove that it actually works in vivo using proper data, not anecdotal reports. This can all still be explained by placebo.

Even if a drug test flags positive for amphetamines, there could be amphetamine-like metabolites that cause false positives without having any noticeable pharmacological effect. Their presence proves nothing. Again, not to be overly negative - just trying to help you figure it out.
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everything you said is true so i wouldn't consider you negative, i'd consider you smart to note those details.

it seems as if my theory is correct, but there is a lot of other explainations for what is going on. i could compare what is going on here to UFO sightings.

although there is one thing i disagree with, and its that amphetamines coming up positive with nutmeg and black pepper and not with just nutmeg shows that there is different metabolites and that nutmeg's metabolism is somehow altered.

it also says that this experiment isn't a pointless wild goose chase, even though the other evidence is circumstantial.
 
Didn't Shulgin say something about "essential amphetamines"?
I remember reading something about him saying that elemicin is processed in rabbits livers and excreted as a psychoactive compound?
This could of course have been bullshit and misquoted.
 
Munroe said:
Didn't Shulgin say something about "essential amphetamines"?
I remember reading something about him saying that elemicin is processed in rabbits livers and excreted as a psychoactive compound?
This could of course have been bullshit and misquoted.
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he did, but the addition of an ammonia molecule is needed for elemicin and myristicin to be metabolized into the essential amphetamines.

with the addition of an ammonia molecule myristicin becomes MMDA and elemicin becomes TMA.

Shulgin speculated this process can happen in the liver but it doesn't seem that way(at least with nutmeg ingested alone). my theory is that the compounds in black pepper(which affects liver function) when co-ingested with nutmeg changes it's metabolism so that different metabolites with different effects(possibly the essential amphetamine versions) are produced.

so far with the different effects of nutmeg alone vs. nutmeg and black pepper and the presence of amphetamines following a drug test with nutmeg and black pepper but not nutmeg alone seem to show that i may be correct.
 
it's been a while now, but I figured that I would drop in to give a quick update. I ended us doing 70 drops ten at a time over the course of two hours. It gave me some strange bodily feelings and initial stimulation followed by a head buzz and sedation, but it was not incredibly psychedelic. I ended up passing out on my bed. It was nice and relaxing though. But then last saturday I ate 2.7 grams of p. cyanescens and that reminded me that a real proper trip is so much MORE than what elemi offers. I have two nutmeg nuts and still a lot of elemi oil. And pepper me course. Does anyone have any ideas for a dosing scheme? I don't really have anything to do today anyway. Some combination of these should be optimal compared with all others, so what is it?
 
MarinQ said:
Áðàò îí ìîé, à óì ó íåãî ñâîé. Íå âåðü áðàòó ðîäíîìó, âåðü ãëàçó ñâîåìó êðèâîìó!
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...What?

Anyway, I gelcapped 650 mg black pepper and swallowed it half an hour before I drank tea made from ~11 grams of nutmeg (a medium and a slightly larger nut).

Finished the tea ten minutes ago, I'll be taking another gelcap of black pepper along with a glass of milk in which I have dropped 25 drops of elemi oil in two hours.
 
basement_shaman said:
...What?

Anyway, I gelcapped 650 mg black pepper and swallowed it half an hour before I drank tea made from ~11 grams of nutmeg (a medium and a slightly larger nut).

Finished the tea ten minutes ago, I'll be taking another gelcap of black pepper along with a glass of milk in which I have dropped 25 drops of elemi oil in two hours.
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do tell what you're feeling when it kicks in.
 
I've tried 15 mg of whole nutmeg crushed and mixed with apple juice. I did not feel any effects whatsoever and had been taking Mucinex, so maybe that counteracted with the nutmeg. The Mucinex contained 60 mg of DXM and was ingested 4 times daily spread out evenly throughout the day for a week. I wonder if pepper would help with the nutmeg high. Any ideas?
 
mysecret: strange that you got no effects from that dose (assuming you mean 15 grams). I must admit that ever since I tried nutmeg tea as a ROA, I haven't used it any other way. Nutmeg is pretty fibrous, and giving it thirty minutes in a simmering pot of water just works wonders for the digestion of it, it seems. some of the active compounds are also dissolved in the water. it,p really tasty with sugar or honey! chew the sludge well.
 
basement_shaman said:
mysecret: strange that you got no effects from that dose (assuming you mean 15 grams). I must admit that ever since I tried nutmeg tea as a ROA, I haven't used it any other way. Nutmeg is pretty fibrous, and giving it thirty minutes in a simmering pot of water just works wonders for the digestion of it, it seems. some of the active compounds are also dissolved in the water. it,p really tasty with sugar or honey! chew the sludge well.
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15 grams would be more like it. It was one large nut and one small nut. They were fresh.
 
Well, strange. I know I would feel mildly euphoric and stimulated at first from that, followed by sedation, blurred vision, and drymouth 4-6 hours later if I drank that dose in a tea. You probably digested it too slowly, so the peak blood concentration at all times (even though it lasted for very long) wasn't enough for you to feel anything.
 
Macropiper excelsum is a great replacement for nutmeg. It has myristicin and elemicin like nutmeg but it also has piperine because it is a pepper plant. I have been smoking a lot of it lately and it is very euphoric. It is also great made into a strong tea.
 
basement_shaman said:
Well, strange. I know I would feel mildly euphoric and stimulated at first from that, followed by sedation, blurred vision, and drymouth 4-6 hours later if I drank that dose in a tea. You probably digested it too slowly, so the peak blood concentration at all times (even though it lasted for very long) wasn't enough for you to feel anything.
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Nope, gulped it down immediately in a shot glass sized amount of Mountain Dew.
 
reminds me of how cocaine interacts with ethanol, vanillin & Aspirin which each make different active constituent metabolites in vivo. The first a transesterification, and the second two a re-constituted benzoyl group to the naturally cleaved benzoyl metabolite serving to reactivate the ecgonine tropane to a yet again functional DARI with more affinity than having benzoyl proper as its constituent conformation.
 
giantsquid said:
Macropiper excelsum is a great replacement for nutmeg. It has myristicin and elemicin like nutmeg but it also has piperine because it is a pepper plant. I have been smoking a lot of it lately and it is very euphoric. It is also great made into a strong tea.
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Wow, that's really cool! I never imagined that there'd be a plant with built-in enzyme inhibition. That's like, I don't know, it's comparable to Mimosa Tenuiflora containing significant amounts of a monoamine oxidase inhibitor! Awesome!

MySecret said:
Nope, gulped it down immediately in a shot glass sized amount of Mountain Dew.
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Digested, not ingested. And yes, I think the slow digestion is due to you now boiling it. You'll see what I mean when you try it - raw, nutmeg is crunchy as fuck. When you boil it (well, simmer really, and finely chopped, for 30-45 minutes) it becomes almost like oatmeal in consistency.

Nagelfar said:
reminds me of how cocaine interacts with ethanol, vanillin & Aspirin which each make different active constituent metabolites in vivo. The first a transesterification, and the second two a re-constituted benzoyl group to the naturally cleaved benzoyl metabolite serving to reactivate the ecgonine tropane to a yet again functional DARI with more affinity than having benzoyl proper as its constituent conformation.
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Thanks for providing this brilliant example of a situation where drugs change each other's metabolites. I was starting to think some people didn't believe it to be possible at all...

About my experience some days ago - scratch that, I'm not going to write up a longer report, but I will try to explain one feeling that I have now been getting every time I've dosed a significant amount of elemi. It usually only comes once during the "trip" (I don't like to call it that, but "experience" takes so long to type), and it seems like it may be the peak, usually occurring 3-5 hours into the trip. It's as if I suffer a slow loss of proprioception over the course of 10-15 seconds. If I then close my eyes, I feel completely dissociated and disconnected from the outside world. Even if I move my limbs around I still can't judge accurately where they are in relation to my body. It's much different from dissociation I've experienced on DXM or nitrous or extremely retardedly baked... It's more of a feeling of just being a torso and a head, instead of feeling like you're just a consciousness. Oh, and this is the best part: there's also a significant rush of euphoria and beautiful CEVs during this part of the trip.

I actually came here to say something else. I've been an almost everyday toker since the summer of 2009, but quit smoking weed non-socially last Thursday.
Well, at 1 pm today I drank a cup of tea from one nutmeg nut, organic grown, very fresh and strongly smelling so probably very potent, weighing 2.8 grams. I had another cup from a 2.1 gram nut at 3 pm.
At 4 pm I dosed 10 drops of elemi oil sub-lingually...
...and I drank a 20-drop elemi oil milkshake at 7 pm.

I was feeling the nutmeg in less than 20 minutes (as usual, I think some sub-lingual myristicin absorbtion happens) and I am completely and utterly convinced this was not a placebo effect. My cannabis cravings disappeared immediately, and my mind switched from feeling like a billion Ferraris overcrowding a superhighway to feeling like a rainbow-colored VW beetle happily strolling along the scenic route. Nothing more happened until I started the next cup of nutmeg tea, at which point the mellow feeling intensified and I started feeling slightly "megged out", for me that means dry mouth, dry eyes, slightly blurry vision, a light non-painful and ignorable throbbing in the back of my head, and very slight but noticable mood lift with transient euphoria.

This kept intensifying until around 6:30, where I suddenly became quite stimulated. I'd been a bit tired all day despite having slept well, but suddenly I felt weird and I kicked into gear, I was moving around like I usually only do on MDMA or speed, I was cleaning the fuck out of everything, doing fifteen things at once and keeping track of them all, I spoke to my dad for half an hour on the phone telling him about me quitting my everyday cannabis use and a lot of other stuff that's currently going on in my life, and after that I played two games of Red Alert 2 against him that I dominated so brutally as I ever have - I was all over the map, again doing a million things at once but keeping track of them all... It was awesome. And holy fuck am I still stimulated. I mean, have you seen the length of this post? Did you see that run-on sentence I just wrote, I mean, holy fuck, this shit really works, and it's different.

That's my point. It's much, much different from when I toyed with the same things while smoking every day. And oh the euphoria. Holy crap this feels good. It's like a warm, happy feeling that radiates out from my spine into my stomach and all the way into my thighs. It comes in a ten-second wave every couple minutes or so. It's not rushy at all, but actually mellowing and relaxing. My body is completely relaxed, sedated and mellowed out right now, but my mind is moving at lightning speeds, and in the good way, not in the "ferraris clutting up the highway" way.

This is of course only the first of my trials with combined nutmeg and elemi oil (no pepper, remember that!) after ceasing my everyday smoking, but I am almost convinced that my liver was, before, busy with processing the cannabinoids and their gazillion metabolites, and therefore unable to properly metabolize the elemi oil into what I want it to be metabolized into.

The funny thing is that I've usually only been using nutmeg when I have run out of weed for a few days and the cravings have set in (psychological cravings, I know, but cravings nonetheless), so I wasn't aware of the huge difference because I simply hadn't had a reason to combine the two (nutmeg and cannabis) before I started with my elemi oil trials, which were unrelated to lack of cannabis and simply due to curiosity.

Take from this what you want, but I think it's interesting. Time to go do some research!

Edit: I think I'll go repost most of this on the Experience board. Yeah, I'll do that!
 
Digested, not ingested. And yes, I think the slow digestion is due to you now boiling it. You'll see what I mean when you try it - raw, nutmeg is crunchy as fuck. When you boil it (well, simmer really, and finely chopped, for 30-45 minutes) it becomes almost like oatmeal in consistency.
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I was referring to the act of placing the Mucinex tablet into my mouth (ingestion)... I was unaware that freshly crushed nutmeg must be boiled in order for it to work, but I could see how that might make a difference. I found many Erowid reports and did not see one that said that it must be boiled, unless I must have missed it.
 
All I know is that it hits me a lot quicker and harder when I simmer it compared to when I don't. Remember to put on a lid so the volatile oils don't evaporate away. I've tried it five times without and upwards of 20 times with simmering now, and while I may be wrong, I feel like I am in the position of judging the difference pretty well ;)
 
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