Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[ThePharmicist]

^^^

Makes more sense now James. I figured one would have to be stable at that dose to enjoy the benefits from it. I find that in times immediately following use of H, or at least the time necessary to be in w/d and be able to use Sub, .25-.5mg would never hold me.

I've been/was on Suboxone for over a year and was just about to titrate my dose down to about 2mgs - it's nice to know that when I do finally decide to stop with the dope I'll be able to get back down to my target dose fairly easily. I have found myself wondering though, if I might not be able to get by on a partial agonist, and that I might need a full agonist. Just my mind/addiction trying to get me on a better opioid I suppose.

 

[jamesBrown]

^^^

Makes more sense now James. I figured one would have to be stable at that dose to enjoy the benefits from it. I find that in times immediately following use of H, or at least the time necessary to be in w/d and be able to use Sub, .25-.5mg would never hold me.

I've been/was on Suboxone for over a year and was just about to titrate my dose down to about 2mgs - it's nice to know that when I do finally decide to stop with the dope I'll be able to get back down to my target dose fairly easily. I have found myself wondering though, if I might not be able to get by on a partial agonist, and that I might need a full agonist. Just my mind/addiction trying to get me on a better opioid I suppose.

Actually, if you do what I reccommend and take daily suboxone doses of 1mg or less, you actually will be "getting by" on a full agonist. Because at those low doses, bupernorphines metabolite norbupernophine(which is a full agonist just like heroin) has the ability to bind to the open receptors in your brain. like I said before, this is what gives people euphoria from low dose suboxone. So technically, if you are maintaining on a dose of suboxone ATLEAST lower than 1.5-2mg's, you actually ARE maintaining on a full agonist(as well as a partial agonist, the bupe, but you feel the effects of the full agonists, the norbupe, the most for obvious reasons).

 

[SkagKush]

he speaks the truth....

 

[rolls_]

I am down to 1mg daily from 8/16mg initially, it has been almost a year and I relapsed on poppy tea maybe 20 times over that period. I can happily say I am completely over my tea habbit now and have been for about 3 months, I feel zero urge to use it and the pleasure is gone so I don't even miss it slighly, am happy that I don't have to drink a litre of foul liquid and pretend I am enjoying it, work is going great and I have a fantastic routine so I sleep well, exercise well 4x a week and I generally feel pretty good most days, almost zero depression or lethargy.

Anyway I am hoping to jump off in a month or so, will hopefully get switched to subutex and drop to 0.4mg, my plan is to then have 4 or 5 up my sleeve and jump off, wait for wds and then have the smallest amount of a tablet possible, do this for a week or two and go completely clean.

Is 0.4mg a low enough dose to jump off? Or am I still going to get bad withdrawals? I would like to make them as mild as possible, and can go down to 0.2 or lower if I absolutely need to before jumping completely.

I have ridiculous amounts of clonidine which completely kill the hot flushes, night sweats and crawly skin so that will make it easier, problem is they make it impossible to get an erection, make you sleepy and if you take too much your vision goes bad and you can black out standing up too fast, so I'd rather avoid their use too often, just when I want a decent sleep.

What do you guys think about the dosing? Is that low enough or should I go lower, would love to hear stories of how other people found jumping off bupe.

 

[ThePharmicist]

Actually, if you do what I reccommend and take daily suboxone doses of 1mg or less, you actually will be "getting by" on a full agonist. Because at those low doses, bupernorphines metabolite norbupernophine(which is a full agonist just like heroin) has the ability to bind to the open receptors in your brain. like I said before, this is what gives people euphoria from low dose suboxone. So technically, if you are maintaining on a dose of suboxone ATLEAST lower than 1.5-2mg's, you actually ARE maintaining on a full agonist(as well as a partial agonist, the bupe, but you feel the effects of the full agonists, the norbupe, the most for obvious reasons).

The key must be to find a dose where you as an individual can process more bupe into norbupe rather than leaving the bupe unchanged when it crosses the BBB. I'm sure individual response varies depending on liver function, specifically enzyme function. Have you had any luck with a CPY3A4 inducer? Like St. John's Wort?

 

[jamesBrown]

St Johns Wort has done nothing to increase the effectiveness of my suboxone doses. but, as I have said before, I am COMPLETELY satisfied with the way my sub doses make me feel right now anyway. im in no rush to change/alter the effects I get from my suboxone. I get quite alot of euphoria, energy, and anti-depressant qualities from my suboxone as it is.

 

[jamesBrown]

I am down to 1mg daily from 8/16mg initially, it has been almost a year and I relapsed on poppy tea maybe 20 times over that period. I can happily say I am completely over my tea habbit now and have been for about 3 months, I feel zero urge to use it and the pleasure is gone so I don't even miss it slighly, am happy that I don't have to drink a litre of foul liquid and pretend I am enjoying it, work is going great and I have a fantastic routine so I sleep well, exercise well 4x a week and I generally feel pretty good most days, almost zero depression or lethargy.

Anyway I am hoping to jump off in a month or so, will hopefully get switched to subutex and drop to 0.4mg, my plan is to then have 4 or 5 up my sleeve and jump off, wait for wds and then have the smallest amount of a tablet possible, do this for a week or two and go completely clean.

Is 0.4mg a low enough dose to jump off? Or am I still going to get bad withdrawals? I would like to make them as mild as possible, and can go down to 0.2 or lower if I absolutely need to before jumping completely.

I have ridiculous amounts of clonidine which completely kill the hot flushes, night sweats and crawly skin so that will make it easier, problem is they make it impossible to get an erection, make you sleepy and if you take too much your vision goes bad and you can black out standing up too fast, so I'd rather avoid their use too often, just when I want a decent sleep.

What do you guys think about the dosing? Is that low enough or should I go lower, would love to hear stories of how other people found jumping off bupe.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=527048

thats^^^a thread that can explain pretty much all of the questions you may need answering. I explain a very effective way of getting off of subs without the pain of WD in the second post.

Also, if you want to learn even more about this particular subject, I reccommend using our "search" tool. I guarantee you you will find a wealth of info on the many ways/techniques/methods/etc....of how to properly wean off of suboxone. I highly reccommend reading post #2 in that thread I linked you to. but if you choose another route of tapering, there are plenty of other threads that have been posted that have more than enough info in them allready for your answer to be completely satisfied.

Good luck!

 

[ganzy1003]

So i have a question, I just tried quitting a 1 gram a day habit of higher grade tar ( i did 2 gs a day until last week.) So this time I waited for 15 hours and was experiencing mild WDs but I could feel it really starting to speed up toward moderate WDs. So i plugged a solution of 6mg sub, and I was sent into PWD about 20 mins later. I waited 10 more minutes in agony to see if it would subside. I had diarrhea and started to get real nauseated too. It didnt seem to be subsiding, so i went straight to my rig and loaded up what was a small shot for me ( I usually do .5g but i only did .25) and the WDs went away in about 2 minutes. I was and still am not high, I feel normal and clear headed as if I was on Suboxone alone. My question is, how do i proceed if i want to quit and switch over to subs? I have the bupe in my system and i know its doing something cause i have the infamous headaches i always get. So can i take another sub safely after a little time? or what how do you think i should go on? In the past i have had a friend say the same thing happened and he just started taking subs a little while after where im at now and that was the transition, he was fine. What do you think everyone? Thanks!

 

[dar1701]

QUESTION: I have been dropping down 2mg a week from 8mg and I am currently on 6mg and starting Friday I will be on 4 mg I want to do a couple snorts of H on Friday afternoon when I wake up, if i did 4mg today at 5:30pm can i get a buzz by Friday afternoon planing on buying 4 points of H to do. and how long after my last snort of H before i can get back on sub?

 

[amanitadine]

Actually, if you do what I reccommend and take daily suboxone doses of 1mg or less, you actually will be "getting by" on a full agonist. Because at those low doses, bupernorphines metabolite norbupernophine(which is a full agonist just like heroin) has the ability to bind to the open receptors in your brain. like I said before, this is what gives people euphoria from low dose suboxone. So technically, if you are maintaining on a dose of suboxone ATLEAST lower than 1.5-2mg's, you actually ARE maintaining on a full agonist(as well as a partial agonist, the bupe, but you feel the effects of the full agonists, the norbupe, the most for obvious reasons).

^^ no offense to you good sir, but I am a bit puzzled. I see this information being tossed around all over bluelight lately, and I am wondering as to why. This whole bupe-norbupe-binding affinity-less is more thing is still merely conjecture, yes? It is only theoretical, and it is a theory that some over in ADD have found laughable. I remember when someone first theorized such a few years ago, and it has slowly gained steam and then just recently exploded and been thrown around like gospel. Why? Has something changed? I've seen read the studies comparing bupe and norbupe and their relative efficacies and affinities but I didn't extend it to draw the conclusion above. I am not saying it isnt plausible....I'm just wondering why it has recently become treated as fact. I've been off and on buprenorphine for the last ten years-back when it was strictly buprenex or temgesic- and I would tend to agree that "less is more", but probably under different qualifiers than what is currently popular. I definitely feel its effects more when I am on low doses...but its moreso like you feel heroin more when you are dopesick than when you are saturated. I think it is a similiar thing happening with buprenorphine, especially considering buprenorphines half life and its building up in the body over time. I also notice more negative effects as the dose goes over 2-4 mg (as a maintenance dose, not as a transition dose) and this too lends itself to "less is more".

Just thinking out loud

cheers

 

[jamesBrown]

I have answered all these questions numerous times in many different threads. In fact im sure I have done it in this very thread before as well. Im not trying to be rude its just that it takes alot of time and typing to explain these answers correctly and it would help me and other members out alot if you simply searched for the answer. I can guarantee you that those questions have been answered dozens and dozens of times on Bluelight. I have witnessed it MANY times in the past 2 weeks alone.

So please, do a search and you will find more than enough info to answer your questions. Im sry, normally I would explain, in detail, the answers to your questions, its just im a little busy right now and i know that you can easily find your answers using the "search" tool. Or maybe someone else will come along and answer your questions. Either way, I apologize, but I feel confident that you will get the answers you need.

 

[jamesBrown]

^^ no offense to you good sir, but I am a bit puzzled. I see this information being tossed around all over bluelight lately, and I am wondering as to why. This whole bupe-norbupe-binding affinity-less is more thing is still merely conjecture, yes? It is only theoretical, and it is a theory that some over in ADD have found laughable. I remember when someone first theorized such a few years ago, and it has slowly gained steam and then just recently exploded and been thrown around like gospel. Why? Has something changed? I've seen read the studies comparing bupe and norbupe and their relative efficacies and affinities but I didn't extend it to draw the conclusion above. I am not saying it isnt plausible....I'm just wondering why it has recently become treated as fact. I've been off and on buprenorphine for the last ten years-back when it was strictly buprenex or temgesic- and I would tend to agree that "less is more", but probably under different qualifiers than what is currently popular. I definitely feel its effects more when I am on low doses...but its moreso like you feel heroin more when you are dopesick than when you are saturated. I think it is a similiar thing happening with buprenorphine, especially considering buprenorphines half life and its building up in the body over time. I also notice more negative effects as the dose goes over 2-4 mg (as a maintenance dose, not as a transition dose) and this too lends itself to "less is more".

Just thinking out loud

cheers

You must be confused. Im sry but it is not "theory". Bupernorphine, in fact, has a higher binding affinity than most other opiates known to be taken by man, including its metabolite, norbuprenorphine(full agonist). And its also fact, that when you take small enough doses of bupe, you leave receptors open for its metabolite to bind to, when it would otherwise NOT bind at higher doses of bupe because there are no more receptors left....and as I explained above, the norbupe cannot kick the bupe off of its receoptors. So when taken in small doses, bupe leaves enough receptors open for its metabolite to bind. Its a very simple concept that actually is based in fact. Im not sure where you got the idea that it is only a theory.
Maybe you should do a bit more research into the exact functions these different chemicals have inside our brains....heres a good website that has alot of good information about this very same subject....give it a good read through, and I think it might clear some things up for you....

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/297/2/688.full

 

[SkagKush]

this is the truth, james is right, and many can agree

 

[jamesBrown]

this is the truth, james is right, and many can agree

I appreciate the support skag and I agree with these facts i have laid out just like you, but it is important to back up information that is given with reliable, repectable, trustworthy, sources for your information. And I believe I have done that.

Its not good enough to simply say..."james is right"....and I mean no disrespect and i agree with you, and appreciate it.

I just want to make it clear that what I say isnt just being said out of random collections of peoples experiences thrown together at the last second to create some sort of "rag tag" "theory".....it is important to point out that there ARE facts to back up what I am saying(as well as all the other people who "experience" these facts on a daily basis).

I have allways thought that it was a fairly simple concept to understand but I failed to recognize that some people have a harder time accepting or understanding things the same way I do, or the same way the general public does.

We dont merely accept this as fact becauses there are "alot of people who think its fact"....we accept it as fact because that is what the scientific studies have shown...no, that is what they have proven. For one, that is why bupernorphine as a painkiller (tamgesic) is only prescribed in doses of 0.2-0.4mg's. This is because of the exact same reason I stated above. The analgesic properties of bupe are not existent at higher doses, its only when the full-agonist metabolite can bind to open receptors that one can feel the 'full agonist painkilling effects" of bupe....(or rather norbupe).

I could spend all night explaining in detail the facts of the situation, etc, etc,....its jsut i simply dont have the time. But mainly its because its all been discussed here on BL allready, and a search will yield all the evidence needed. there is also the world wide web full of medical journals, webistes, etc that have even more evidence to back this up. Anyone is welcome to read about it all they want, and they are welcome to come to there own conclusions...but facts are facts, so the conclusions that people come to should prove to be very consistent with each other.

 

[SkagKush]

lol, when i stated that you were correct by saying quote "james is right"..... i meant that you were right on the facts that many of us have already determined to be correct.

 

[jamesBrown]

lol, when i stated that you were correct by saying quote "james is right"..... i meant that you were right on the facts that many of us have already determined to be correct.

I know exactly what you meant. I was just using your statement to prove a point.

You see.....he easily could have responded to your post saying..."look!.....all these people just blindly follow what you say and believe whatever you tell them!!....theres no facts here, its just speculation thats gotten out of control!"

So I responded to your post, (before anyone got a chance to post anything like that), saying that I appreciate your support, as well as, our beliefs about suboxone our actually based in fact, rather than it just being a belief that has gained popularity simply because alot of people talk about it and believe there friends word on it no matter if its true or not.

You see what im trying to say here? its kind of hard for me to explain what i was trying to do. Sry if im confusing you.

 

[DkBlaze1]

^^ no offense to you good sir, but I am a bit puzzled. I see this information being tossed around all over bluelight lately, and I am wondering as to why. This whole bupe-norbupe-binding affinity-less is more thing is still merely conjecture, yes? It is only theoretical, and it is a theory that some over in ADD have found laughable. I remember when someone first theorized such a few years ago, and it has slowly gained steam and then just recently exploded and been thrown around like gospel. Why? Has something changed? I've seen read the studies comparing bupe and norbupe and their relative efficacies and affinities but I didn't extend it to draw the conclusion above. I am not saying it isnt plausible....I'm just wondering why it has recently become treated as fact. I've been off and on buprenorphine for the last ten years-back when it was strictly buprenex or temgesic- and I would tend to agree that "less is more", but probably under different qualifiers than what is currently popular. I definitely feel its effects more when I am on low doses...but its moreso like you feel heroin more when you are dopesick than when you are saturated. I think it is a similiar thing happening with buprenorphine, especially considering buprenorphines half life and its building up in the body over time. I also notice more negative effects as the dose goes over 2-4 mg (as a maintenance dose, not as a transition dose) and this too lends itself to "less is more".

Just thinking out loud

cheers

Thank you for this I completly agree... many people love to not think and just believe things that make some bit of sence and then you have a few people on this that post and post and repost about this IDea. So im not suprized that people think it is fact. IF you really look at whos posting these things you will start to see that about 5-10 soild few are the ones repeating themselfs and about 4 who I see all the time retelling the same facts over and over rehashed, It seems as though they are very needy to be believed. because theres only so many times I can think anyone really would want to repost the same concept just rephrased. But for some this doesnt seem to be the case and they will continue to say the same shit over and over again with no new Ideas ect... and this problem also is largly due to people reasking the same Questions all day without checking the threads ect first.....

 

[Deveel]

Went to the doctor today. He said he's switching me to the new film strips and also gave me a 75 dollar discount card. I'm excited to get on the strips becsause apparentley they dissolve immediatley.

My doctor also said the generic suboxone is out. For all those who don't wanna get on the strips because ypu like the pills tell your doctor your on a budget and wanna go with the cheaper generic version rather than the new name brand strips.

 

[DkBlaze1]

Went to the doctor today. He said he's switching me to the new film strips and also gave me a 75 dollar discount card. I'm excited to get on the strips becsause apparentley they dissolve immediatley.

My doctor also said the generic suboxone is out. For all those who don't wanna get on the strips because ypu like the pills tell your doctor your on a budget and wanna go with the cheaper generic version rather than the new name brand strips.

I'm pretty sure theres no generic suboxone only generic Subutex... This whole Film shit was the reason why there is NOT a generic suboxone... I could b wrong but im sure Im not... Seeing as I just had this disscusion with my doctor about the films and them being the reason why the Generic suboxone has not come out.. and wont for ten years due to patent issuses. but I also know for sure that there is a generic SUBUTEX so this is most likly what he ment to tell you

 

[jamesBrown]

Thank you for this I completly agree... many people love to not think and just believe things that make some bit of sence and then you have a few people on this that post and post and repost about this IDea. So im not suprized that people think it is fact. IF you really look at whos posting these things you will start to see that about 5-10 soild few are the ones repeating themselfs and about 4 who I see all the time retelling the same facts over and over rehashed, It seems as though they are very needy to be believed. because theres only so many times I can think anyone really would want to repost the same concept just rephrased. But for some this doesnt seem to be the case and they will continue to say the same shit over and over again with no new Ideas ect... and this problem also is largly due to people reasking the same Questions all day without checking the threads ect first.....

The reason we post the FACTS about bupernorphine so often, over and over again, is because people keep asking about it over and over again.....not once has ANYONE ever posted those facts without being asked about them first. not one person has jsut randomly started talking about how bupe works. \
So please do not call other members "needy to be believed" just because they are trying to help people who are asking valid questions and are being answered with valid points backed up with scientific evidence. That is not only rude, but it is also ignorant. We do not allow name-calling on BL....so leave your snide little "needy" comments out of your future posts please. The BL community will be all the better for it.

We are constantly telling peopel to use the search function so we dont have to repeat ourselves so often, but as you know, some poeple jsut dont listen and never learn, so as a result, we are forced to repeat ourselves over and over again....and you treating us like we have done something wrong or like we are being "needy" is extremely disrespectful. I think you should try harder to make your posts a little more BL friendly. your post is simply stirring up problems that are not needed, nor are they welcome here on Bluelight.