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NEWS: Drug prohibition doesn't work - so what do we do next?

The Freedom not to have to deal with tweakers in public when I walk down the street with my kids is also the issue. Open markets will not suddenly weed out the social idiots who don't stay at home when they indulge. Making it legal takes control away from these people who are unfortunately more responsible. It is only a small percentage of idiots out there (Bluelight by it's nature tends to have less of them) but only a few will ruin it for all.

Removing the penalty of having a criminal record is a better option. Denying a person the right to travel to other countries just because they happen to have been caught smoking a bowl is the real travesty. Despite all men being born equal we all know that the rich don't go to jail or get arrested. Different drug users attract different attention from the authorities, rightly or wrongly. Most of us have been in this game for long enough to know people whose lives have been ruined by drugs. Addiction, mental illness or just stupid accidents won't disappear because suddenly things are legal.

Having more open debate on harm reduction from people who by their standing in society must stay quiet would be more beneficial and this is still achievable with decriminalisation.

There will always be problem drug users, the tweakers are on our streets whether it be legal or illegal so I can't agree with you there busty.

It's most likely things such as black market prices eating up their money or stigma's attached to their use that are and forcing them out of housing and onto the street. Ending prohibition is more likely to see less street users....

This isn't just about legalization, I believe a major part of such changes would be the availability of drug information that the average drug user just doesn't have easy access to today.

Only the few who seek out drug info have more than basic knowledge of illegal drugs, most of the basic knowledge on the street is scewed by government's and drug dealers trying to push gear at any cost

If everybody had proper drug information available from a young age, many of the drug problems we see today would decrease dramatically.

The information that I have spread through groups of friends has cut dangerous drug taking behavior and the use of dangerous drugs by more than 50%! All of these people agree that if they had the info I have given them from a primary school or early high school age, they would never have taken up such behavior. Studies across the globe have came to the same conclusion.

I do agree that criminal records from drug use that stop people from traveling to certain countries are a big FAILURE of prohibition.
 
There is less harm in legalizing all drugs than what we have today...

Legalize all drugs, get the proper information out there about all drugs, prescribe/add taxes and we wont have a large percentage of the mess we see in today's society of prohibition

While drugs are illegal there is little information given to kids in school other than them being "BAD". When kids smoke their first joint/drop first pill and find out they've been lied to they will go and throw all sorts of crap into their bodies without a care.

If you were to inform kids of the physical and mental risks associated with all drugs from a young age they are way less likely to use drugs and far less likely to fall into the circle of addiction.

I don't see drug legalization leading to drug use of epic proportions, in fact, it has been proven that decriminalization/legalization leads to less drug use throughout communities.

Do you think that society will all become useless drug users or something if everything were legal?

Can you and everyone you know not get any drug you want now?

Most users can get anything they want, whenever they want and still lead a normal life. How is that going to change?

+1, nice post psilo

it's been shown and proven through the heroin clinics in switzerland that many who come in for their daily fix have been moved off the streets and are now holding down steady jobs and living a more stable life. sure there are those that relapse but for the most part the "needle park" area reknown for heroin abuse there has been cleaned up to a great degree and has cleaned up the streets.

they had huge problems with dirty rigs and utensils being left all over the place, people shooting up in groups in public view. they now employ the addicts to clean the area up. before this was put in place it was much like the slums over in iran, afghan, india etc

iirc there has also been a huge drop in contractions of HIV and Hep since implementing this program.

There will always be problematic users and those who are dumb enough to take really dangerous chemicals. Ending prohibition is the best thing for both both of these 2 groups

We should have the right to choose what we put in our bodies full stop

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY

agreed as well, i know we touched on this a little last night while we were talking. you've sparked an interest in me getting more pro-active with drug legislation, instead of just being a user and promoting HR ;)

Of course the majority of people wouldn't just go out and get off there faces on heroin for the fun of it. I think initially you might see a spike of people trying a different substance who wouldn't normally, but to tell the truth I could have done and could still (easily) do a wide range of drugs that I wouldn't' touch with 10 foot shitty stick.

Case in point how easy is it to obtain Datura from gardens in Australia and New Zealand?? And then look at how many people would actually want to use datura, not too many I would hazard a guess.

People that want to use drugs already do and it is usually the drug of their choosing no matter what the legal status may be.

great points, trippa. this thread has been a great read for me, thanks for posting
 
Of course the majority of people wouldn't just go out and get off there faces on heroin for the fun of it. I think initially you might see a spike of people trying a different substance who wouldn't normally, but to tell the truth I could have done and could still (easily) do a wide range of drugs that I wouldn't' touch with 10 foot shitty stick.

Case in point how easy is it to obtain Datura from gardens in Australia and New Zealand?? And then look at how many people would actually want to use datura, not too many I would hazard a guess.

People that want to use drugs already do and it is usually the drug of their choosing no matter what the legal status may be.

You wouldn't touch Heroin however if it was OTC a few years ago I would have gotten into that quick smart.

Datura is a shit drug that no one wants if its legal or not. People can get easy access to deleriants as is but people don't want them. People do want heroin, you might not but there are a lot of people out there that do.

Case in point Alcohol, Tabbaco, Caffene. None of the drugs are really up there in Euphoria compared to other common drugs. But they are so widely abused. People will want their next energy drink, a nice dose of Methamphetamine and maybe cocaine. What a way to start the day...for a while at least.

How do you explain the massive abuse of these drugs yet think people won't find their stronger more addictive counterparts a problem? Do you really think if all drugs were legal that alcohol tabbacco and caffene will still be king?

I doubt that.


(PS almost every government around the world agrees with me and everyone who watch's ACA or today tonight ha ha I have alot of friends (joke intended))

I support legalisation of some drugs after trial. I support decriminalization of all drugs for personal amount and free Heroin/Methadone or whatever an addict needs to help get their life back on track.
 
Of course the majority of people wouldn't just go out and get off there faces on heroin for the fun of it. I think initially you might see a spike of people trying a different substance who wouldn't normally, but to tell the truth I could have done and could still (easily) do a wide range of drugs that I wouldn't' touch with 10 foot shitty stick.

Case in point how easy is it to obtain Datura from gardens in Australia and New Zealand?? And then look at how many people would actually want to use datura, not too many I would hazard a guess.

People that want to use drugs already do and it is usually the drug of their choosing no matter what the legal status may be.

Do you really think so though? Already many people draw a line between prescription drugs (ms contins etc) and heroin, not because the effect profile is very different but because one is illegal and has such a stigma attached to it (the stigma being mainly due, directly or indirectly, by it being illegal). I think stigma prevents a lot of people from doing certain drugs, and while the stigma of drugs wouldn't disappear overnight if they were made legal, gradually it would.

I think that you are looking at this from the point of view of a drug user - while it may be easy for you to get any drug, for a majority of people it would be extremely difficult to find heroin or even ecstasy because they just don't run in the right circles. I would guess that probably 95% or more of the population doesn't even know what datura looks like, which makes it's comparison against alcohol or tobacco (which everyone has seen and grown up with) fairly meaningless imo.

For the record, I lean towards supporting legislation, but I think it is naive to think that the number of users, and therefore problem users, will not greatly increase. Like I said before, I think the stigma and unavailability of illegal drugs is the only thing that's keeping a vast number of people from doing them. I suppose it comes down to whether you think having a vastly greater number of users (and addicts) is worse than the multitude of problems we have now. Though on second thoughts I suppose it is not upto anyone but yourself to decide whether you risk addiction or not. My point is just that I think the number of users will greatly increase.
 
There will come a shift from drug use being seen as a criminal problem to a health problem.

We would not be finding a panacea though. We would be changing the current problems with drugs now which is mainly; enforcement of drug laws (Police, Judicial and incaceration costs) for a new set of problems that on paper look like they have the best chance of reducing the damage of drug use to the individual user and society as a whole.

Staged Decriminalisation followed by Regulation/Legalisation and Taxation

Regarding the specifics of the laws, I would look at a staged decriminalisation (starting with weed obviously) over many years leading to legalisation/regulation.

I would immediately legalise any naturally grown or cultivated plant, fungus etc...and allow people to grow/cultivate it as they please. I would leave the private unlicensed sale/distribution of any drug (pharmaceutical, grown, cultivated, alcohol or tobacco) illegal, but reduce sentences greatly to mainly fines except for extreme cases.

I am unsure if I would make the newly legalised drugs available and taxed for in stores sale though. The thought of pure coke at sub-illicit prices being available to 18+'s as they please. The problem is as soon as you say "coke and heroin" should only be available on script to addicts. Then people on the street start manufacturing morphine and other stimulants. Drawing arbitrary lines between what is "too dangerous" becomes endless intellectualising, so we do need an "either or" approach.

My idea would be to clearly define that all naturally occuring drugs that do not require chemical alteration and/or need water only extractions should be allowed to be sold in licensed head shops. We cannot legislate against nature.

Cocaine (extracted form), heroin, meth and the "hard" (synthetic) drugs that are physically addictive should not be available for sale in these shops, but made available to addicts through GP's and drug clinics. Regarding their legal status they would remain illegal to sell/distribute (I don't think we can have "licensed" shops just selling this shit to 18 year olds and we still need to cut some of the profits from international crime rings that may persist in profitting from the newly created "grey" market), but simple possession and use without interference with any else's freedom should be allowed. Synthetic drugs a la the majority of PiHKAL and TiHKAL would therefore remain illegal to sell/distribute, but simple possession and use would remain legal. Manufacturing synthetic drugs for personal use would be legal, provided you are licensed to use the chemicals and are using a facility that abides by all laws regarding chemical use and safety (we don't want idiots blowing up and polluting neighbourhoods). Controlling the "grey" market properly is the biggest challenge with drug law reform and my ideas on this are probably not fail-safe by a long shot, further debate is needed.

Possible New Problems that will replace the old ones

The money saved on drug law enforcement and gained from taxation (billions of dollars annually no doubt) could then be spent on; accurate drug awareness programs, addiction clinics (or "health centres" - we need a non-threatening name) and other societal needs arising from drug use.

IF (and it is a big "IF") there is an increase in the variety, frequency and duration of individual drug usage patterns coupled with an increased number of overall users this could lead to an increase in mental health problems in society and we will have to keep a watch on the amount of resources we are giving mental health facilities Australia-wide to make sure that they are more than sufficient.

Having a chemical test for DUI that accurately measures a user a being too intoxicated to drive (and not just simply picking up trace amount) for the myriad of drugs (including pharma) out there would be a problem.

The Drug Law Proponent's arguments are becoming increasingly weakened by newer sociological, law enforcement and pharmacological studies.

Their main arguments are:

I see a few prongs,

1) It causes crime. This is a circular argument. It causes crime because it is made a crime and therefore being in possession of it is a crime. The regulation of drugs will drop prices to end users who will then not need as much money to get high and thus reduce crime.

2) They don't like other people having fun, they were the squares that the hippies laughed at in college and you bet they still remember those days. No one wants to admit this one, but it is back there trying to be suppressed in their mind. As the baby boomer politicians begin to leave politics and gen Y takes over we will see a drastic change in drug laws.

3) It's bad for you. I find this statement the most perculiar, as the idea that the state cares so much about YOUR health that it is willing to fine or incarcerate you, just to protect YOU from YOURSELF, defies all logic. Sure any drug used excessively will be bad, remember though all illicit drugs do not cause the death and societal cost that alcohol, tobacco and big pharma do and it's not even a close contest.

4) This is another argument they will not admit to openly. They're scared the little worker drones won't go to work and will just get high all day and the economic pyramid will come crumbling down. Psychedelics give people "crazy" ideas about the value of human life and nature. The rich and the politicians have the greatest to lose in a shift of the zeitgeist.

Our Approach to exposing the irratonality of drug laws

We need to make the history of drug laws in this nation available on fliers and on websites as the original reasons mention none of their main four grievances to drugs now. What does that tell you about the rationality about drug laws? It's like the justfications for the Iraq war, whatever keeps the sheeple quiet. The majority of drug laws were mainly introduced to oppress minorities. There is a doco series that looks at the historical reasons behind the banning of all of the common classes of drugs.

Also we need to expose the drug war as the 30+ year and trillion dollar (global) failure that it has become. Let alone the human costs. The studies and statistics are on our side, people need to know this.

Drug Law Enforcement Failure

There are two main approaches to drug law enforcement:

1)
Exceedingly harsh punishments to act as a "deterrent".

This is the SE Asian approach and it has not resulted in lower drug usage rates.

2)
Sophisticated detection equipment and greater customs monitoring (i.e. more money spent on detection). The "police state" or "big brother" model.

This is the American approach. US tax payers spend more money on drug law enforcement per capita than anyone else and it has made no difference.
 
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How we include performace enhancing and image enhancing drugs in this legislation is tricky as steroids/hormones are unlike recreational drugs and education in safe use is paramount as with some of them the margin for error is small and health problems can be permanent or very long term with unsafe use, they are not as forgiving.

The British model might be worth a look.
 
Lets not all forget that if drugs were legalized and education implemented effectively, everyone would know the assosciated dangers of drugs and there would be a hell of a lot less of an "if its OTC it's safe" attitude, which we all know simply isn't true.

Of course there would be a generation that would still have conflicting views, our children would be perfect to educate about the REAL dangers of drugs, and be fully prepared to make an informed choice in the event that they source them.

I know if I have a child I'll be educating them about drugs at an early age (~high school). I wouldn't want them to rebel against the cause and be a filthy alcohol or anything ;)
 
^^+1

I had an amazing experience meeting the kids of a hippy family at a festival last year

They had been told the truth about drugs from a very young age, seen drugs being abused at festivals and the consequences of such behavior

With this knowledge on board, they have no ambition to ever use drugs, 5 kids ranging from 9-17 years old that had been in the thick of it with all the right information and drugs available to them.

Even I was shocked to see open drug conversation in-front of kids before I really got talking to them and their parents.

That is something that really changed my views for the better. My stance has been solidified by my research into prohibition with the highlight being my attendance at EGA 2009

I have seen some bad ass kids come out of 'lied to' upbringings

Education is the key

We can't educate kids about the truth on drugs with the current system because it flies in the face of everything the government wants us to believe.

If people who don't agree with my view have spent as many hours researching their point of view as I have mine, then maybe, your right and i'm wrong

I just can't find the evidence to support other views

Views that I too once shared

If that's ignorance than i'm defiantly ignorant

I like to call it science :)
 
I just don't understand how hard drug users can speak out saying it should remain illegal. So you are consuming less pure drugs and paying out your arse for them and can face criminal convictions and possibly jail for indulging?

Apart from the direct influence that it has on you, what about the hypocrisy? You believe you can use these substances but others should be banned from doing so? The only things that should be against the law are things like robbery and murder, shit that is directly anti social and negatively impacts on other people. In my mind if something is illegal then it should be immoral, there is nothing immoral about drug use. How in the fuck is anybody going to tell me what I can and can't put in my own body? Its a load of shite really, if someone ends up a serious addict and is fucking up major then they will be caught out on the crimes they commit to support their habit. Why punish the sensible majority eho use occassionally, even functional addicts deserve the right to stay as fried as they want as often as they want so long as they are paying their own way and not neglecting their children or anything.

I don't think anybody can get any drug under the sun but I would wager that people who can't find atleast speed, E and marijuana are a HUGE minority. You only have to read the bloody papers to know where to go to score heroin on the streets. ANYBODY can get drugs, if they actually want them it doesn't take much determination to seek them out. I am not talking about fancy or novel compounds here but your bread and butter recreational drugs are out there in huge quantities and anyone with the slightest hint of curiosity, determination and cash in their wallet can find a chemical to suit their preferences.
 
You wouldn't touch Heroin however if it was OTC a few years ago I would have gotten into that quick smart.

Datura is a shit drug that no one wants if its legal or not. People can get easy access to deleriants as is but people don't want them. People do want heroin, you might not but there are a lot of people out there that do.

Case in point Alcohol, Tabbaco, Caffene. None of the drugs are really up there in Euphoria compared to other common drugs. But they are so widely abused. People will want their next energy drink, a nice dose of Methamphetamine and maybe cocaine. What a way to start the day...for a while at least.

How do you explain the massive abuse of these drugs yet think people won't find their stronger more addictive counterparts a problem? Do you really think if all drugs were legal that alcohol tabbacco and caffene will still be king?

Your post (the print in bold)only reinforces my point...
people that really want a certain drug will get it no matter what the legal status is and certain drugs (ie Cannabis, alchohol and tobacco) that are easy to function on if not abused (ie hold down a job and raise children and keep up good relationships) are the most commonly used because people want to use them.

The reason that Alcohol and Tobacco are so widely abused come's down to the fact that people can use them day in day out and still lead productive (not necessarily healthy but at least they know the risks) lives.

The reason the majority of people wouldn't abuse heroin and Meth and other possibly destructive/disruptive drugs will be the same reason whether legal or illegal .... health and well being and personal choice.

You educate people and they can make informed choices. You don't educate people or misinform them and they will make misinformed and dangerous choices.
Tobacco smoking 30-40 years ago was supposedly good for you and hence the massive amount of people that smoked baby boomers etc ...
move the clock forward to present day and much less people smoke (and once all of gen y kids reach teenage years even less so) because of education and informed choices ... not because of prohibition or threat of persecution.
 
There's two choices, as I see it, either leave the market unregulated and let organised crime run it, or regulate the market in a sensible manner and let the government run it. That doesn't mean a free for all, it means a sensible evaluation of a particular drug on its merit, and an acceptance of the fact that regardless of how much you try to ignore it some people are going to use drugs that you might find distasteful or socially harmful, then figure out ways of minimising the impact. It's been mentioned before, the Blueprint for Regulation, but as I see it that is the only common sense approach to this issue.

We can administer methadone safely and responsibly, why not heroin? We can administer alcohol and tobacco without (too much) problems, why not ecstacy and marijuana?

Just because something ahs been legalised/decriminalised doesn't automatically mean it will be more widely available, quite th opposite, you could legalise and make problematic drugs LESS available simply because the government has oversight of the market.

I can't believe there are so many wowser fucktards on BL! I guess some people like the idea of legalising the drugs THEY enjoy, and imposing a moral judgment on drugs they find frightening. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
 
I don't think anybody can get any drug under the sun but I would wager that people who can't find atleast speed, E and marijuana are a HUGE minority. You only have to read the bloody papers to know where to go to score heroin on the streets. ANYBODY can get drugs, if they actually want them it doesn't take much determination to seek them out. I am not talking about fancy or novel compounds here but your bread and butter recreational drugs are out there in huge quantities and anyone with the slightest hint of curiosity, determination and cash in their wallet can find a chemical to suit their preferences.

Yup, depending on which city and which time period, I'm sure that "street" drugs like heroin are probably the easiest of all to obtain, used to be in Melbourne that certain corners you couldn't walk past without being offered heroin at least once, more like 20 times. Availibility is the shittest and most retarded argument against ending prohibition that there is.

Back in the twenties in America, anyone could score booze, but often it was rotgut that could poison yo ass and was available to anyone without question, but and end to prohibition and a start of regulation limited availibility (age restrictions, liquor licences etc) while increasing quality and safety, killed organised crime, and led to an all round better situation with better social and health outcomes for all.
 
^^ (trippa, Bit_Pattern got in ;)) And yet 1 in 5 teenagers smokes even though they have grown up knowing the dangers of smoking. It's not as simple as being educated about the dangers - as 1 in every 5 teenagers today show. I'm sure many of us on bluelight have tried drugs despite knowing the risks thinking 'it wont happen to me'. Why do you expect this to change if drugs are legalised? As well as that, personal experience weighs heavily and someone who tries a drug like methamphetamine once may reassess their view of it - even though they know the long terms risks, as any drug user knows, they sometimes lose out to instant gratification, especially if there are no negatives at first. Someone could smoke meth to wake up in the morning every day for months before seeing a problem. And by then be too addicted to stop easily. So its not as simple as to educate people, and I think it's simplistic to think that people who don't worry about the health effects of tobacco and alcohol, will suddenly care when it comes to meth and heroin, especially since the instant pay off of those drugs is so much stronger.

drug_mentor said:
Apart from the direct influence that it has on you, what about the hypocrisy? You believe you can use these substances but others should be banned from doing so?

There is also the point of view of not wanting anyone else to have their lives ruined by drugs, as their's have been. Even if it doesn't make much sense, not everyone who doesn't want everyone to be doing drugs is doing it out of hypocrisy.
 
^^ (trippa, Bit_Pattern got in ;))

I'm a ninja at this shit!

But, yeah, people are going to be attracted to drugs like H and meth, they already are, isn't it better to provide the market in a regulated manner so it can be accessed by people who really want to instead of leving it open to unscrupulous pushers?
 
^^ Yes, I think so. Like I said earlier, I'm pro legislation. I just think that we have to be prepared for a huge increase in the numbers of drug users (and therefore addicts). I just think it is naive to assume that people will stay away from meth and heroin because they're educated about their dangers. Educating helps, however there are still a huge number of people who will try drugs regardless. In fact the kind of people with the limited brain power who wont do drugs 'because they are illegal', would probably be the same ones to turn their brain off after hearing they are legal, and not take into account any of the education they are provided. You can't make people learn, and like I've said before, education is only one factor that influences people's choice whether or not to do a drug.
 
There is also the point of view of not wanting anyone else to have their lives ruined by drugs, as their's have been. Even if it doesn't make much sense, not everyone who doesn't want everyone to be doing drugs is doing it out of hypocrisy.

Please don't take offense to this...

If drugs were legalized years before you were born, you may very well have had the knowledge to not have had your life ruined by drugs in the first place.
 
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