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[DMT Subthread] Entity / Alien / Machine Elf Contact

Mr Wobble, if the overwhelming appearance of a drug experience is that it DOES grant access to an otherwise unseen hyperdimensional space inhabited by mysterious entities, Occam's Razor would imply that this is very simply the case.

Occam's Razor = accept the simplest explanation

One interpretation posits 1. the existence of a hyperdimensional space 2. the existence of intelligent entities therein. 3. that some psychoactive drugs somehow enable one to access this hyperdimensional space.

The alternative interpretation posits that 1. ingesting psychoactive drugs can induce brainstates that manifest as convincing hallucinations of an overwhelming nature.

The second interpretation seems to me to be the simpler, by a long way.


I do think that the idea of machine elves and hyperdimensional space and all that is very appealing - I would love it to be "true". But I don't find it so appealing that I am willing to abandon reason and logic. :\
 
I'd say these experiences are manifestations of the personal and collective unconscious. (e.g. I encountered an entity that is quite clearly recognizable as my 'Anima' - on shrooms and even on LSA and n2o)

ockham's razor might also imply that theses entities live inside the psychoactive substance... ;) (similar views are probably 'common sense' within most of society)
 
I mean, am I autonomous? Yes? NO? I think I am, therefore I may be....? BUT: Who will ever confirm for me that I have a place in consensus reality, outside of where Ibelieve myself to reside?

The arguments against the DMT entities in particular as being "fake" are startlingly pointless. In my experience, one can say what they will about DMT and the beings who inhabit its landscape- but on actually seeing and interacting with things that I could only call "machine elves"- small, insectile spherical wasplike things, machinlike in their mechanical humming, who simply drew/eat/vomit/paint reality for me. I have never been more astonished then wen I broke through on DMT, fell into fractals- and opned my eyes to see half my room as pure blackness, with a million billion trillion little "elves" hovering at the edge of the blackness and "sticthing" light and reality into it; incidentlly, they sticthed the 3D representation of my girlfriends head onto her (ie. her actual head).

Its like this- these entities are both autonomous and complete hallucinations at the same time. Kinda like humans. They possess all properties, if you let them. They are born from the DMT smoker, but do not live or die with his/her smoking, but merely shine through for a while. Like god, they are both "out there" and "in here". Symetrical beings of nothingness.

as usual swillow knows how to word things :). this is exactly the description i would use. these 'elves' were not only stitching/drawing reality together, they are all parts of reality, they were the 'parts' being stitched together. god, dmt is profoundly amazing.
 
The simplest explanation is to look at the data, people's experiences and accept the simplest explanation for what it is - that it is actual meaningful phenomena with a meaningful message for us, rather than explain it away as phenomena which is an abheration and therefore not valid.

The explanations that attempt to explain it away as a phenomena just don't stand up to those who have actually done the tests and experienced the phenomena.

The clarity, sophistication and intensity of the data received clearly indicate the phenomena should be valued.... and not negated as an abheration.

If this is your brian "hallucinating" to itself... it is telling you to listen! Very clearly!

Mr Wobble wrote:

One interpretation posits 1. the existence of a hyperdimensional space 2. the existence of intelligent entities therein. 3. that some psychoactive drugs somehow enable one to access this hyperdimensional space.

For one thing, hyperdimensional space is basically assumed in the field of quantum physics. If there is hyperdimensional space, why wouldn't there be some kind of "life" within it? Or, how would we know it, unless *something* appears IN IT to define it.

We only know physical outer space, by what defines it, other planets and stars.

In DMT experiences people often experience some sort of terrain or even have experiences of visiting another world.

The alternative interpretation posits that 1. ingesting psychoactive drugs can induce brainstates that manifest as convincing hallucinations of an overwhelming nature.

This is a kind of negating reductionism - not the simplest, or most elegant explanation. It opens up a reductionistic pandoras box which collapses in upon itself into a self generated nihlism which is actually closed mindedly illogical.

So then we would have to explain what a hallucination is, why people are hallucinating beings who are communicating with them, why the brain would do that to itself and why is it overwhelming? if there wasn't some MEANING or message within it?

This position opens up so many more questions and the requirement for theories and understandings than the position - IT JUST IS AS IT APPEARS TO BE!

OR, this position states, a kind of nihlistic perspective, whereby none of that matters - the kind of death of proactive logic which fails to posit any sense or meaning. Then, we negate a very valid and interesting phenomena and say it is an abheration and has no value, and the case is supposedly closed! (and so becomes the mind)

This "case closed" position goes against the intensity and breadth, human value reported by human beings in the DMT state, which strongly suggests the experience is not an abheration, but appears to have a certain kind of validity and experienced VALUE which effects people's notions about themselves and their reality.

The simplest explanation is that what people are experiencing is as valid as anything else they experience. Nobody has satisfactorily explained why people's brain would generate entities or these experiences? anyway! There is no logical reason known why the brain would do that.

Please nobody reference James Kent, who clearly needs to visit Nanobrain...and experience the one true way. ;-)

At this point it is not really worth commenting on his work except to say, he contradicts himself by saying two completely opposing things here.

http://www.tripzine.com/listing.php?id=dmt_pickover

"I've done DMT a number of times, each time with the intent to find some deeper truth or insight about the experience. The only thing I can say for certain is that it is different every time."

"As it is, DMT appears to produce amazingly consistent visual patterns in all users. That is a significant fact, and it points to the conclusion that DMT is very simple in it's action without a lot of room for variation."


Julian.
 
Look sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I was just pointing out that the interpretation of Occam's Razor used wasn't necessarily the done deal as presented in the first post I quoted. Just injecting a bit of rational scepticism.

I didn't mean to invalidate anyone's experience. Neither did I say that these experiences are meaningless, far from it!

I actually found that description of silow's rather eloquent, not to say a little intriguing.
 
Folias, Do you feel you can really communicate anything meaningful when you're oscillating between these two extreme beliefs [it means Nothing! it means Something!] and trying to tell us what "it is" in capital letters?

Especially when you don't seem to be talking about your experience, but instead telling us about the nature of reality?
 
Folias, Do you feel you can really communicate anything meaningful when you're oscillating between these two extreme beliefs [it means Nothing! it means Something!] and trying to tell us what "it is" in capital letters?

Especially when you don't seem to be talking about your experience, but instead telling us about the nature of reality?

Look- you can see the sun; only because you have a brain. And- also- you can see entites under DMT, also because you have a brain. Theres very little distnction between the two, except a semantic one. If you accept that reality IS constructed pretty much by your mind (and yet, is based on external nuances) then the same can be said for DMT entities; one can't merely say "Its only because of the DMT", because then I would expect you to fluently express why you can see the sun too.

Talking about psychedelic entites IS talking about the nature of reality. They possess all the properties of something I consder "real", which (admittedly) isn't all that much anymore. :)
 
No offence taken! It's good to actually tease these ideas out!

I was just pointing out that the interpretation of Occam's Razor used wasn't necessarily the done deal as presented in the first post I quoted.

Occams razor is normally used "doubtfully" and "skeptically", but the idea here was to turn that on its head and say that it actually applies logically in this instance, not to explain away, but to cut away unecessarily and largely illogical and implausible explanations.

Occams razor says, "Plurality ought never be posited without necessity".

The explanation "against" validity/value/meaning/"reality" must imply plurality or suck the cock of a lot of very limited set of value systems, which are only assumptions or ideas utilised by certain temples.

The explanation of validity/value/meaning does not posit any plurality, and gives us a basis from which to arrive at even simpler explanations which affirm, rather than deny phenomena experienced by thousands of people as being of value/validity/meaning, which is very simply how most of them experience it!


Julian.
 
omg. I would love it so much to join this discussion. but my english is just not good enough - would cost me too much energy...

...but I'd stick to this quote:
Talking about psychedelic entities IS talking about the nature of reality. They possess all the properties of something I consider "real"[...]

reality is what you perceive. there is no such thing as "reality", "truth", objectivity - not to speak of science(esp. empirical science).
you cannot explain things like that (and many more) you can only understand them and find out what they mean to you.

when it comes to psychedelics everyone is a scientist of his/her own experience.


[btw: I'm gonna be a psychologist one day(more sooner than later) and I will conduct research on these topics. promised. :) ]
 
i may have an opportunity to try DMT again soon.

I am not going to let this experience be as underwhelming as the last.

I am comfortable with launching myself into hyperspace.

Any advice on a dose that would potentially let me meet the elves?
 
Some people need a lot... just keep upping your dose till you get there (and you will know)... you know you have done "too much" when you black out. 80-100mg is not too much.

Smoking DMT is not easy... technique is everything. Do a lot of deep breathing before smoking!


Julian.
 
i have smoked it before, so i know what to expect as far as it tasting like i am smoking plastic.....

I didn't have as much as i wanted to do the first time and my technique was bad....
 
I've only tried DMT once, and didn't break through, al though I did get visuals and felt a presence.

I'm assuming to breakthrough and see entities you need to close your eyes, or can this be achieved with eyes open?

I am also wondering how long to hold each hit?

If you have to take over 50 mg to break through into the "machine elf" realm, I'm assuming you would have to take a few hits. TI'm tying to get my technique down before I explore DMT any further.
 
Folias, Do you feel you can really communicate anything meaningful when you're oscillating between these two extreme beliefs [it means Nothing! it means Something!] and trying to tell us what "it is" in capital letters?

I'm not doing any oscillating here... the capital letters represent an emphasis... hey look, I've been outside out of Plato's cave... so what's your smoking technique like? :-)

One of the best ways to smoke is to wedge the DMT in between layers of herb in a bong cone... the best is b. caapi shavings... without a doubt... but any herbs can be used. So you have a layer of herb, the DMT in there and then another layer of herb on top of that.

Then you take one bong hit... one long hit and take it all in one. I know people who can smoke half a gram this way... it makes it MUCH easier.

Then you hold it in as long as you can and then breathe out through the nose.

Succinctness appears vital... because if you get the DMT in to the body too slowly, there is an immediate tolerance that builds up.


Julian.
 
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Hmm. . I thought about it more and I can better express my question now.

When I've smoked in the past, and attempted to explain what was happening, it turns the 'mental music' of the experience into a painful whine like an unlubricated motor.

The character of my thoughts seems to steer my brainship, and attempts to comprehend or define seem really inefficient/dangerous/unpleasant.

So before I was actually trying to ask if you felt any of those same things. Because I do not believe I know whether or not everyone has the same experience, and while I hesitate to define it or tell other people 'how it is' in a didactic manner, I am still curious.
 
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You lots mad! lol I dont think I could handle the strongest hallucinogen on earth, cant even handle LSD properly let alone this
 
I think on high doses we encounter the machine elves but we usually forget before we get back. When I hear people talking about the machine elves it's usually because they have recorded multiple trips immediately after coming down.
 
^No, I remember my trips pretty well, but if you changa-ise it or smoke ~200mg's, not much is retained. Except for the anal probe that was once left in.
 
^No, I remember my trips pretty well, but if you changa-ise it or smoke ~200mg's, not much is retained. Except for the anal probe that was once left in.

I thought the same, but it's hard to know what you've forget and some of it happens so fast you might not register it. I have a few min during one trip I can't account for and I wouldn't have know that had other people not been watching me.
 
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