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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

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Serious Question about Suboxone and Amphetamines- anyone in recovery please

Sorry if the headline doesn't sound super warm, I tried the ADD forum with my issue but no one has any clue about suboxone (they can go on for days about stimulants tho). I am a recovering Oxy -> Herion + Cocaine addict. Sounds weird to say it cause it's been almost 2 years. This website actually makes me a little uncomfortable, but for what it's worth I'm really hoping someone may have some helpful insight. I started taking vyvanse about 6 months ago when my ADD symptoms were becoming more and more intrusive on my everyday life. I've always struggled with lethargy, depression, and general malaise, in addition to moderate cognitive deficits. For all the really great effects of vyvanse, my side effects are getting worse. I'm really depressed. I'm getting less motivated and more aggitated. I have no tolerance for frustration, and am sad, lonely, and monotone. I feel like my personality sucks. In addition to the ADD meds, I've been on suboxone for my entire time in sobriety. (I am in AA and therapy and very comfortable with maintaining sober living) - anyway, I was down to 4mg subox before the vyvanse, and without noticing it I'm back up to 6-7 mg/day over the past 4 months or so. I don't like to take more than 1.5 or 2 mg subox at a time cause it can make me a little woozy/dizzy with the stimulants, but I do take it when my anxiety peaks from those meds because that timeline makes more sense. I'm to the point where I am struggling with daily life. I'm depressed regardless of the meds cause of my life situation (new job, new home [alone], very few friends, no relationship, high stress, lonely, sad) but I don't know what to do. Does ANYONE have any experience with both these meds? Don't call it speedballing, I shot herion and cocaine everyday for a long time, and it upsets me when people say that. (Don't get me wrong, people cause abuse any drug in any way, but this isn't me) - I don't know why i spent my entire saturday sitting on my couch doing nothing at all when I have a page long list of things to do. I'm tired all the time. I just need someone who can give me something, any experiences or anything that might help. I really appreciate it.
Thanks
 
I think you should taper down on your suboxone dose to 2mg per day, you will find less agitation and lethargy/depression/malaise this way. Buprenorphine antagonizes itself at higher doses.

Vyvanse can cause depression, some people don't like it when compared to d,l-amp (adderall) or d-amp (dexedrine).

You should get a different ADD medication other than Vyvanse, and you should take it only when necessary.

I also think that having compensated for the way Vyvanse makes you feel by taking more suboxone is a bad idea; this is not helping your recovery.

I used to do heroin and cocaine together or separately for a long time, but heroin was my main DOC for a while. Cocaine by itself is a pretty useless high, and heroin loses its touch when you get tolerant to it. I've been clean for 6 months and am tapered down on suboxone to 1mg/day (1.5mg/day tops).

I prefer to be on buprenorphine over heroin (even if it was legal, free, and available in large and pure quantities to me) because I lack most of a withdrawal syndrome from buprenorphine now. I wake up feeling a lot better than I used to when I was on a higher dose of it. And, when you're on a lower dose of suboxone, more nor-buprenorphine activates the mu-opioid receptor, and tends to have a more pleasant effect than buprenorphine itself.



...


Finally, your thread is about to get merged into http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=395580&page=38 <-- here. Don't be alarmed.
 
ahlongsan said:
Capt H,

I can get my hands on midazolam, rhoynol, prazepam and bromazepam so what do u reckon is the best???? also i am on a 3x0.216mg dose like u taught me so how low a dose do u reckon i should go down to?? and sorry mate i don't understand what u mean by bupre or nor-bupre??? could u please elaborate a little more for a beginner like me please??

Cheers and thanks heaps heaps in advance.......:)
Click to expand...

You don't have to go any lower, I was replying to another person in the end of the post you quoted me in.

As for the benzos, I actually have tried none of those.

However, I imagine the midazolam is a good choice. I think bromazepam isn't all that awesome from what some have said about it, and I haven't even heard of prazepam so I couldn't speak on it. Midazolam is favored by some, and I would love to try it. Start with a low dose of it (with or without the diazepam, either way) and let us know how it is.

Basically...

Norbuprenorphine is the active, dealkylated metabolite of buprenorphine. However, it has a slightly different binding profile to opioid receptors, acting as a stronger partial agonist at the mu opioid receptor than buprenorphine itself, as well as being a potent full agonist for the nociceptin receptor.[1] Although Norbuprenorphine is a stronger metabolite than Buprenorphine, it does not readily cross the blood brain barrier.
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Meaning, when you do 3x0.216mg, there is more active dealkylated metabolite of buprenorphine activating your mu-opioid receptor versus buprenorphine itself.

This means, when you do a baseline dose, you get higher than you would if you took a large dose of buprenorphine. This is why a lot of people find a 'low dose' of buprenorphine gets them feeling better than a 'high dose' of it.

But that's also to subisjustokay and not you, ahlongsan. So you don't need worry about it, except you can know you're getting the most high you can, which is a good thing.

When people find 8mg/day is too much and that a N8 lasts them 4 days, and gives them better effects each day than that one day of agitation, this is why the "less is more" thing got started; people are simply not tapering themselves when their bodies are starting to naturally reduce tolerance.

I think another reason why a low dose of buprenorphine is more effective in delivering euphoria or just plain normal feeling is that it utilizes more of your endogenous endorphins, so you have a drug and your natural endorphins getting you high.

When you're on heroin, heroin takes over and your body doesn't need to use its endogenous endorphins, so it's just a drug making you high.

I think this is partially why I like buprenorphine a lot more than heroin for daily maintenance.
 
zoebutt: If you are suffering from depression regardless of your meds, then your medication may be worsening this. Have you seen a psych about this problem?
 
Captain.Heroin said:
You don't have to go any lower, I was replying to another person in the end of the post you quoted me in.

As for the benzos, I actually have tried none of those.

However, I imagine the midazolam is a good choice. I think bromazepam isn't all that awesome from what some have said about it, and I haven't even heard of prazepam so I couldn't speak on it. Midazolam is favored by some, and I would love to try it. Start with a low dose of it (with or without the diazepam, either way) and let us know how it is.

Basically...



Meaning, when you do 3x0.216mg, there is more active dealkylated metabolite of buprenorphine activating your mu-opioid receptor versus buprenorphine itself.

This means, when you do a baseline dose, you get higher than you would if you took a large dose of buprenorphine. This is why a lot of people find a 'low dose' of buprenorphine gets them feeling better than a 'high dose' of it.

But that's also to subisjustokay and not you, ahlongsan. So you don't need worry about it, except you can know you're getting the most high you can, which is a good thing.

When people find 8mg/day is too much and that a N8 lasts them 4 days, and gives them better effects each day than that one day of agitation, this is why the "less is more" thing got started; people are simply not tapering themselves when their bodies are starting to naturally reduce tolerance.

I think another reason why a low dose of buprenorphine is more effective in delivering euphoria or just plain normal feeling is that it utilizes more of your endogenous endorphins, so you have a drug and your natural endorphins getting you high.

When you're on heroin, heroin takes over and your body doesn't need to use its endogenous endorphins, so it's just a drug making you high.

I think this is partially why I like buprenorphine a lot more than heroin for daily maintenance.
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Capt H,

Cheers again for your great lesson...i am not on any maintainace thingi coz i have stopped my H for 15 years and except for 150mg of CWE codiene once in a blue moon. the reason i'm doing the burpe is coz i recently found that i can get my hands on some and it's a lot less hassle than doing a CWE but it a really generic one. the one i told u about name ZONOR made in Pakistan 0.216mgx1 and it's 8 euro each( wonder why it's in such a small dose and cost so much?? Do u have any ideal??)anyway like i said i have follow your advise and dose 3 days in a row without any WD and now have not had any for about 5 days now coz of the expensive price tag... anyway will try it with midazolam next time as you suggest and see how i go.

just one more thing, my midazolam is not generic, it's from Roche and it comes in 15mgx1( i get pretty wasted on 1x15mg midazolam even though i am on daily dose of 20-40mg of diazepam, so what do u think is a good dose of midazolam for me to start with??? and how should i do it?? substitute my diazepam with midazolam first than follow by 3x0.216mg bupre or how?? please advise again Capt H,

Cheers again and have a good one mate.

Wish i can send u some midazolam but since it;'s not allowed by the rules of Blue light.........sorry mate and prazepam is a generic name for lysanxia by Pfizer mate .

Thanks thank thanks Capt H once again for your help, wish i can return the favour:):):)
 
Has anyone else that has had appointments over the past few months had to sign new contracts? I had to sign a new one three months ago, and just had to sign another new one this time.

The one this month had an updated item that said if my medication is lost or stolen, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

Do these contracts come from the doctor's office itself, Reckitt Benckiser, or the DEA?
 
ahlongsan said:
Capt H,

Cheers again for your great lesson...i am not on any maintainace thingi coz i have stopped my H for 15 years and except for 150mg of CWE codiene once in a blue moon. the reason i'm doing the burpe is coz i recently found that i can get my hands on some and it's a lot less hassle than doing a CWE but it a really generic one. the one i told u about name ZONOR made in Pakistan 0.216mgx1 and it's 8 euro each( wonder why it's in such a small dose and cost so much?? Do u have any ideal??)anyway like i said i have follow your advise and dose 3 days in a row without any WD and now have not had any for about 5 days now coz of the expensive price tag... anyway will try it with midazolam next time as you suggest and see how i go.

just one more thing, my midazolam is not generic, it's from Roche and it comes in 15mgx1( i get pretty wasted on 1x15mg midazolam even though i am on daily dose of 20-40mg of diazepam, so what do u think is a good dose of midazolam for me to start with??? and how should i do it?? substitute my diazepam with midazolam first than follow by 3x0.216mg bupre or how?? please advise again Capt H,

Cheers again and have a good one mate.

Wish i can send u some midazolam but since it;'s not allowed by the rules of Blue light.........sorry mate and prazepam is a generic name for lysanxia by Pfizer mate .

Thanks thank thanks Capt H once again for your help, wish i can return the favour:):):)
Click to expand...

Haha, it's OK. I don't do benzos that often, and I'll probably find midazolam one day or another. I don't know if it's still available in the US or not though.

I don't know why each 0.216mg pill is 8 euros, that's pretty expensive. Maybe opiates are really rare in your area? Or, someone's trying to make a killing on their prescription?

To be honest, that's extremely pricey.

Buprenorphine is a really expensive opiate, even where I live though. But not as expensive as what you're talking about.

I would take the buprenorphine first, and then while you're waiting for it to onset, I would take maybe half of the 15mg midazolam (or the whole thing, whatever you prefer - I like to split benzos in half so they last me longer) and wait for both to effect you. It should be a pretty pleasant combination.

Lastly, I would advise you save your diazepam for afterwards, so you have a nice pleasant effect for the next day.

Let me know how it goes.

KittyLazarus said:
yeah, got a little codeine. ima get more on the way from a friend.

i gotta work. i'm finally gettin out of the end of a week of mono/withdrawal, and got high as a kite last night. i wish it was monday so i could call a drug addictions counselor.
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The codeine, along with an OTC like diphenhydramine, or doxylamine succinate, etc can really help the experience.

I would also advise smoking bud - it's the one thing that will help me when I'm coming down from any opiate without having to take more. Plus, it's not physically addictive, and when you space it out just right it's a really helpful thing.

I linked you to the program so you can get free suboxone - this is the best thing you can get. It definitely has helped me be clean and very happy for the last 6 months.

bow-viper1 said:
Has anyone else that has had appointments over the past few months had to sign new contracts? I had to sign a new one three months ago, and just had to sign another new one this time.

The one this month had an updated item that said if my medication is lost or stolen, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

Do these contracts come from the doctor's office itself, Reckitt Benckiser, or the DEA?
Click to expand...

I've never had to sign a contract...I never really would IMO. That's kind of ridiculous.

If the doctor wants his payment, he's going to help you without making you jump through hoops. Otherwise, there's always other doctors.
 
Captain.Heroin said:
I've never had to sign a contract...I never really would IMO. That's kind of ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I don't like the idea either, but I did it... because I was ungodly dopesick, broke, recently unemployed, and I had already pawned everything I owned. That contract was the only thing standing between me and the cessation of my withdrawals, and I signed it without a second thought just to make the pain end.


Captain.Heroin said:
If the doctor wants his payment, he's going to help you without making you jump through hoops. Otherwise, there's always other doctors.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Some area have very few (or even zero) doctors who can prescribe Bupe. Before I moved back home, I was in a little college town about an hour away from a major city in any direction. Well, every doctor in the major cities had a waiting list 100 patients long... so me, and every other junkie I knew there, had to go to the only doctor in the area who DIDN'T have a waiting list... he was a 90 minute drive away, and charged $900 for induction, and $300 per month afterwords. CASH only.

Needless to say, once i heard those prices, I realized it'd be much cheaper to stick to dope and pills rather than somehow try to come up with $900 cash plus $400 the get my prescription filled.

I mean, who do these doctors think we are? Junkies don't just have $1500 dollars lying around to hand over. Maybe they expect us to steal shit and pawn it to pay our medical bills...

Anyway, I'm off topic.

Like I was saying, there aren't always other doctors. With that guy 90 minutes away being the closest, and being so expensive, my next nearest option was a full 2 hour drive away. That means a 4-hour round trip 2 days in a row for induction, plus the same every month beyond that.

Oh yeah, I didn't have a car, either.

Distance, combined with the scumbag's (did I mention he ran his Suboxone "practice", seperate from his regular practice, out of his living room at home, from 9pm-midnight only?) outrageous prices, meant there weren't any doctors close to me.

I've since moved back home to a decently big city, with dozens of sub doctors. Even so, of those dozens of doctors, 50% have a waiting list a mile long, and of the 50% with open spots available, another 50% of them required 3-5 days per week of attendance at a particular outpatient rehab facility that they required all of their patients to attend, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them accepts cash only. $100 minimum, sometimes closer to $300.

I'm lucky I found a doctor who would see me after 10 days of cold turkey withdrawal in my parent's basement making non-stop phone calls, even though NAABT.org lists 30+ licensed doctors in my area.

Long story short, the point is, there isn't always another doctor... not realistically, at least.

Whew, my fingers hurt.
 
Captain.Heroin said:
Haha, it's OK. I don't do benzos that often, and I'll probably find midazolam one day or another. I don't know if it's still available in the US or not though.

I don't know why each 0.216mg pill is 8 euros, that's pretty expensive. Maybe opiates are really rare in your area? Or, someone's trying to make a killing on their prescription?

To be honest, that's extremely pricey.

Buprenorphine is a really expensive opiate, even where I live though. But not as expensive as what you're talking about.

I would take the buprenorphine first, and then while you're waiting for it to onset, I would take maybe half of the 15mg midazolam (or the whole thing, whatever you prefer - I like to split benzos in half so they last me longer) and wait for both to effect you. It should be a pretty pleasant combination.

Lastly, I would advise you save your diazepam for afterwards, so you have a nice pleasant effect for the next day.

Let me know how it goes.


Will do Capt H and cheers again for your advise.

I have no problem getting my hands on benzos and it's cheap as chips here mate...and yer u are right i guess someone IS making a killing from their prescription on the bupre hahhaha I am that "someone's" killing hahahaha but it's all good though coz i don't do it that often since my last 3 days in a row dose i've had it maybe only once more and purely coz my job require that i am very talkative sometimes hahaha and mate, it make me talk like a machine gun hahaha...

Thanks once again Capt H and will let u know how it goes with midazolam( i have to be careful though coz midazolam is much much stronger than diazepam and 1x15mg makes me wasted so i should do as u said, break it in half first coz i don't wanna have the nod while on my job) will let u know it goes once ive done it mate.

:D
Click to expand...
 
Ive been on norspan 10ug/hr (.24mg per day) bupe patch for a week now with no morphine, so patch is about to wear out. i feel decent considering it was a daily 10 year habit, can anyone tell me what type of withdrawal will i experience (serverity/time) from 1 week of taking that much bupe daily?

Thanks in advance :)
 
^it will be considerably comfortable if just a 10mcg patch was able to hold you over the week. i'd expect anywhere from just 2-3 days of uncomfortableness all the way up to 2 weeks. i was on norspan patches for a year for pain and the patch actually contains more than just a weeks worth of active drug, so you could leave it on a few days longer. i've actually left them on for 2 weeks and it held me just fine.

what kind of morphine habit did you have before you started wearing the bupe patch?
 
ahlongsan said:
Captain.Heroin said:
Haha, it's OK. I don't do benzos that often, and I'll probably find midazolam one day or another. I don't know if it's still available in the US or not though.

I don't know why each 0.216mg pill is 8 euros, that's pretty expensive. Maybe opiates are really rare in your area? Or, someone's trying to make a killing on their prescription?

To be honest, that's extremely pricey.

Buprenorphine is a really expensive opiate, even where I live though. But not as expensive as what you're talking about.

I would take the buprenorphine first, and then while you're waiting for it to onset, I would take maybe half of the 15mg midazolam (or the whole thing, whatever you prefer - I like to split benzos in half so they last me longer) and wait for both to effect you. It should be a pretty pleasant combination.

Lastly, I would advise you save your diazepam for afterwards, so you have a nice pleasant effect for the next day.

Let me know how it goes.


Will do Capt H and cheers again for your advise.

I have no problem getting my hands on benzos and it's cheap as chips here mate...and yer u are right i guess someone IS making a killing from their prescription on the bupre hahhaha I am that "someone's" killing hahahaha but it's all good though coz i don't do it that often since my last 3 days in a row dose i've had it maybe only once more and purely coz my job require that i am very talkative sometimes hahaha and mate, it make me talk like a machine gun hahaha...

Thanks once again Capt H and will let u know how it goes with midazolam( i have to be careful though coz midazolam is much much stronger than diazepam and 1x15mg makes me wasted so i should do as u said, break it in half first coz i don't wanna have the nod while on my job) will let u know it goes once ive done it mate.

:D
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Haha, yeah buprenorphine makes me talk a lot for some reason too. Heroin would make me talk a good bit but most of the time on heroin I would only talk if I felt like it, otherwise being quiet was just as pleasant.

When I'm on buprenorphine and on the forums people often think I'm speeding...when I rarely ever take amphetamines. lol.

KittyLazarus said:
thanks greatly Captain H!
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Let me know if the program helps you, or if any of my advice pans out.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
leftwing said:
^it will be considerably comfortable if just a 10mcg patch was able to hold you over the week. i'd expect anywhere from just 2-3 days of uncomfortableness all the way up to 2 weeks. i was on norspan patches for a year for pain and the patch actually contains more than just a weeks worth of active drug, so you could leave it on a few days longer. i've actually left them on for 2 weeks and it held me just fine.

what kind of morphine habit did you have before you started wearing the bupe patch?
Click to expand...

60mg MS contin daily 10 years, Getting bit worried because have been sick yet except mild restlessness on first few nights & mild diarrhea other than been feeling great. Been going to gym daily prob helping a lot with endorphin release and eating.was your uncomfortableness moody or physical or both?

cheers
 
When I come down from buprenorphine (albeit more than your dose, I have tapered down to 0.5mg twice a day) I just get really tired/sleepy, but it's not that bad on the physical side other than GI problems.

Mentally speaking, the come down is a bit agitating but a lot better than heroin withdrawals.
 
oh, you were taking the morphine for pain then?

my uncomfortableness is always both mental and physical. when i went through some wd's not long ago the longer i waited to take my next dose the worse the mental aspects got as the pain took a back seat. though, i do a wicked windmill when my RLS is in full action:\
 
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