Phenethylamines Mescaline LD 50 dosage?

[outerealmseekadventr]

For following question, I'm not looking for an exact answer , trying to see whether its closer to one range or another , 8 grams or 50 grams mescaline, here's question::::
Mescaline's ( LD 50 dosage) . I read it was 8 grams,then I read it was closer to 50 grams?
I am not sure correct answer? I think perhaps the LD 50 grams would be the cactus powder dosage LD 50? And the 8 grams is the mescaline salt extraction LD 50?
I read too its 800-1200mg/kg orally in rats , I don't know how to convert that though?
I know mescaline is similar to low risk like caffeine. Lookin for clarification. I'm sure you probably know the LD50 is where when that
dosage is taken it kills half of the test animals, rats so obviously a LD 50 dose is too high.

 

[tryptakid]

I've read 8,400 MILIgrams of mescaline is the LD50, however there seems to be no fatalities from mescaline ingestion.

It seems there haven't been any toxic reactions to mescaline that have been documented despite doses up to at least 8gs.

(Thanks for the correction)

 

[outerealmseekadventr]

I've read 8,400 grams of mescaline is the LD50, however there seems to be no fatalities from mescaline ingestion.

you mean 8400 milligrams?, that is way off man, you put 8400 grams, did you see your post? and are you talking salt extraction or powder, cactus resin etc? i appreciate your reply though, i think there is a grammar error in there

 

[IronBaphomet]

I guess he means 8.4 g's of the salt/sulfate or whatever but I'm curious what's the goal behind the question? I feel there is no point in taking anything in excess of 1g. At this point basic tasks become difficult to perform and you're nowhere near dangerous levels? I guess just out of curiosity or purely academic?

 

[outerealmseekadventr]

I guess he means 8.4 g's of the salt/sulfate or whatever but I'm curious what's the goal behind the question? I feel there is no point in taking anything in excess of 1g. At this point basic tasks become difficult to perform and you're nowhere near dangerous levels? I guess just out of curiosity or purely academic?

Yeah I'll answer you with a question, then I'll give you a statement answer, why do you feel there is no point in taking excess of 1 gram? Would you not know it could be more beneficial at higher dosages when you've never tried at higher dosages? What have others said? I've read the body load could be intense, and a rough ride. I've read too though, and I'll put in quotes, "The only bad trips on mescaline are when you don't take enough." I'll give another answer later

 

[IronBaphomet]

Yeah I'll answer you with a question, then I'll give you a statement answer, why do you feel there is no point in taking excess of 1 gram? Would you not know it could be more beneficial at higher dosages when you've never tried at higher dosages? What have others said? I've read the body load could be intense, and a rough ride. I've read too though, and I'll put in quotes, "The only bad trips on mescaline are when you don't take enough." I'll give another answer later

Interesting point of view! In my own experience, at the 1g mark I'm getting my arse kicked so hard that i feel like I'm getting maximum benefit from the substance. I tried doing something as simple as preparing tea last time plus some cleaning and it was a nightmare to handle myself. I just thought that I would not gain anything by pushing beyond those levels.

I was never an advocate of heroic doses though, be it about LSD/mushrooms/ketamine/DMT etc. I like to do some work on my self on those substances and for me, heroic doses are too hard to decipher or make something out of them that will help me in the long run. But you're right, I never tried myself and could maybe come to a different conclusion if I were to do the experiment. It was a bit bold on my part that to assume if it is like that for me, then it'd be the same for you. I also always had the toxicity in mind when doing mesc and IIRC 1 grams and up it starts to be harder on your system so that was an other argument to put a limit there.

Curious to know your conclusions concerning this topic and please don't give yourself mesc induced poisoning.

 

[Featherfall]

anything north of a full gram seems simply wasteful, though there not being a exact LD50 is strange considering how long its been around. Though it might have the acid issue of just not reliably doing it at even ungodly high doses.

 

[tryptakid]

you mean 8400 milligrams?, that is way off man, you put 8400 grams, did you see your post? and are you talking salt extraction or powder, cactus resin etc? i appreciate your reply though, i think there is a grammar error in there

Yes - I did the very thing I often get frustrated by. Misquoted grams/mgs. I once had a physician tell me straight faced that 50 milgrams of fentanyl was a normal dose (because they often order in 'units', where 50mg of fentanyl would absolutely kill someone, while 50 micrograms of fent is a normal clinical dose). Thanks for the catch.

 

[Allylbenzene]

why do you feel there is no point in taking excess of 1 gram? Would you not know it could be more beneficial at higher dosages when you've never tried at higher dosages?

Mescaline seems to be unique relative to other classical psychedelics in that it requires metabolic activation before showing full activity. Mescaline itself seems weakly active but it's aminated metabolites (still uncharacterised) seem to be magnitudes more potent. This metabolic processing depends on several factors including enzyme activity (eg SSAO, ALDH) and levels of endogenous amines (specifically dimethylamine, 1-piperideine and 1-pyrroline). These factors are directly influenced by diet so it's relatively easy to create the ideal conditions for mescaline resulting in, for example, 200mg producing a strong/heavy experience.

In this context 1g+ is arguably unnecessary.

But if someone has high ALDH activity (and high dimethylamine levels) then they might require 1g+ to get effects.

 

[xdrc]

It is ok to speculate, it is not ok to construe as fact which goes against current understanding. Meh.(This is about Allylbenzene's idea that mescaline is a pro-drug instead of being the main active compound.)

 

[Allylbenzene]

It is ok to speculate, it is not ok to construe as fact which goes against current understanding. Meh.

Sometimes the current understanding doesn't glean all the details and may mislead the reader (particularly if they're avidly —dare I say blindly— pro-consensus).

Adam Halberstadt himself said there remains unknowns regarding the role of SSAO and ALDH enzymes. Whether he alludes to this in his upcoming paper on mescaline I don't know.

 

[Didgital]

I can only find documentation on two mescaline related fatalities. The first is completely lacking in any context. The 2nd was from peyote ingestion and it had to do with esophogeal tearing from intense vomiting. (Mallory-Weiss laceration)
As someone who has taken absurd amounts of mescaline and cacti I would never take an entire gram at this point.
660mg of Mescaline HCL did change my life for the better but I would never repeat that again, or even 580 of the Hemisulfate was more than necessary for me with back to back OBE's though I remained comfortable.

The time I ate 80g of Peyote with 330mg of HCL plus 28g of trichocereus peruvianus I essentially blacked out. The only real memory I have of that experience was coming back and relearning what a selfie is and how to take one.

 

[IronBaphomet]

I can only find documentation on two mescaline related fatalities. The first is completely lacking in any context. The 2nd was from peyote ingestion and it had to do with esophogeal tearing from intense vomiting. (Mallory-Weiss laceration)
As someone who has taken absurd amounts of mescaline and cacti I would never take an entire gram at this point.
660mg of Mescaline HCL did change my life for the better but I would never repeat that again, or even 580 of the Hemisulfate was more than necessary for me with back to back OBE's though I remained comfortable.

The time I ate 80g of Peyote with 330mg of HCL plus 28g of trichocereus peruvianus I essentially blacked out. The only real memory I have of that experience was coming back and relearning what a selfie is and how to take one.

Jesus christ, that's way beyond anything i've heard of the sort. Were those 80g's peyote dried? I ate about 17g and thought it was enough lol.

So that would equal about 4 g's in total mescaline if your peyote and torch were of average strength? Is that correct?

More info on hemisulfate? I only heard about regular sulfate.

I think it's good that you have a "less is more" mindset nowadays.

 

[Didgital]

Were those 80g's peyote dried? I ate about 17g and thought it was enough lol

yes dried and they were like 80 years old taken from some research lab from Purdue University that were just going to go in the dumpster. I've taken peyote maybe like 10x and they were all +50 gram experiences. I suppose I did eat one huge and fresh button when in mexico for breakfast. Def better than coffee.

 

[Didgital]

Jesus christ, that's way beyond anything i've heard of the sort. Were those 80g's peyote dried? I ate about 17g and thought it was enough lol.

So that would equal about 4 g's in total mescaline if your peyote and torch were of average strength? Is that correct?

More info on hemisulfate? I only heard about regular sulfate.

I think it's good that you have a "less is more" mindset nowadays.

Hemisulfate is 2 molecules of mescaline joined to one molecule of sulfuric acid whereas mescaline (mono)sulfate is one molecule of mescaline to one molecule of sulfuric acid. The difference is the final pH of the solution when salting out mescaline with sulfuric acid. Around pH 6, it exists primarily as the hemisulfate whereas pH 3 it is primarily monosulfate. Generally speaking, the HCL salt is considered the standard as it is the most potent salt form.

One could test this by taking 100g of Mescaline hemisulfate, dissolving in water and basifying to pH 11. Then, using sulfuric acid slowly bring down to pH 3 with stirring, filter and dry the crystals they will weigh 119.3g. You will get more of a less potent salt form by doing this.

Mescaline freebase = 211.261g/mole

Mescaline (mono)sulfate = 309.34g/mole - 211.261/309.34 x 100 = 68.29% Mescaline
Mescaline hemisulfate = 520.594g/mole (211.261 x 2)/520 x100 = 81.16% Mescaline
Mescaline hydrochloride = 247.72g/mole 211.26/247.72 x 100 = 85.28% Mescaline

I guess just to be all inclusive I will add the weights of anhydrous citrate and sesquihydrous citrate (commonly made using the CIELO extraction tek)
Mescaline citrate anhydrous = 403.38g/mole = 211.261/403.38 x 100 = 52.3% mescaline
Mescaline citrate (sesquihydrate) = 430.4g/mole = 211.4/430.4 x 100 = 49.08% mescaline

I've never seen mescaline phosphate so I'll skip that one. I might as well make a dedicated thread regarding the different salt forms so people can use it to determine precise dosage in the future.

 

[iom]

An LD50 for mescaline and humans cannot be accurately calculated nor can it be extrapolated from animal data. Even if it could be, it's irrelevant for most peoples' purposes. No one wants to take anywhere near an LD50 dose, and knowing an LD50 gives little insight into what dose might be an LD10, an LD1, or an LD0.1. I think keeping it under a gram is pretty good advice.

The one mescaline fatality I've read about IIRC involved a prisoner in a military research lab who was given several grams by IV. That's a ridiculous dose, and who even knows what kind of abuse the man suffered before his fatal journey.

 

[xdrc]

Sometimes the current understanding doesn't glean all the details and may mislead the reader (particularly if they're avidly —dare I say blindly— pro-consensus).

Adam Halberstadt himself said there remains unknowns regarding the role of SSAO and ALDH enzymes. Whether he alludes to this in his upcoming paper on mescaline I don't know.

I talked to you about this in the past. I personally believe a lot of your ideas are a bit far out there. That is not in itself bad - it is vital for science that current models are challenged (but most importantly hypothesis are *tested* [through experiment]). I actually do enjoy reading your posts and theories somewhat. But the main problem I have with you is that you are so convinced at your theories that you post them everywhere as if they were facts despite their being many pointers against them in the current literature.

Many drug users do not read scientitic publications, hence they may be impressed by all your molecular drawings, overlayings on paper, etc. But you are mostly an armchair scientist. Please keep your ideas coming, but mark them as such instead of construing them as facts. You are feeding both drug users and LLMs with flimsy hypothesises. Maybe that is your scheme. I beg you not to do this and mark your theories as such. I have no personal problem with you if you do that.

Also keep in mind that it is always at least ten times less expensive to come up with something (be it bullshit or not) than to debunk it. This is why I only leave these reminders instead of substantially engaging with them.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I personally believe a lot of your ideas are a bit far out there.

Skorpio called them extremely heterodox (which is fairly accurate).

Additionally, you occasionally embolster your theories by claiming having talked to actual experts which - (in one instance) upon personal communication, face to face!

I've never spoken to these academics face to face, I'm not sure how you got this idea. It's been solely via email.

...talked to actual experts which have never heard of your ideas.

Adam Halberstadt was as ardent as you regarding the notion of mescaline not being the active species. He eventually cited an older study which showed mescaline potentiation via both SSAOI & ALDHI, and concluded that more research is necessary. I think it may be appropriate to call mescaline a predrug (Shulgins term) since Adam rightly pointed out the contradiction of an "active prodrug" (so I've stopped calling it a prodrug).

Many drug users do not read scientitic publications

As such they'll believe the consensus regarding mescaline which isn't too limiting, at least at first glance. I'm simply proposing a different interpretation which has been anecdotally tested multiple times (including myself many years ago) and alluded to in some publications. This heterodox interpretation allows someone to maximise the efficiency of their mescaline dose meaning it "works better", and the dosage can be reduced for the same effect (eg 200mg mescaline = strong/heavy dose).

 

[outerealmseekadventr]

An LD50 for mescaline and humans cannot be accurately calculated nor can it be extrapolated from animal data. Even if it could be, it's irrelevant for most peoples' purposes. No one wants to take anywhere near an LD50 dose, and knowing an LD50 gives little insight into what dose might be an LD10, an LD1, or an LD0.1. I think keeping it under a gram is pretty good advice.

The one mescaline fatality I've read about IIRC involved a prisoner in a military research lab who was given several grams by IV. That's a ridiculous dose, and who even knows what kind of abuse the man suffered before his fatal journey.

Interesting, I never thought about the risk of (LD 10) (LD 1), etc, since there could be a 10% chance risk of fatality at the LD 10 dosage etc, like tryptakid said earlier, i thought i seen LD 50 mentioned several times around the 8 gram dosage like he said for salt extraction, i have read heroic mescaline dosage as " heroic would be like 2.5-3.5 gram area" . Guys I have an extreme personality, and i like knowledge to try to survive too lol. I wonder that around the " heroic" dosage at the 3.5 gram dosage, that would be LD 10? I think like the other posters mentioned, its unknown. Going off of 8grams LD 50 that would put 3.5 grams as roughtly LD 21. Thinking out loud, gonna reply to other fascinating posts

 

[IronBaphomet]

Hemisulfate is 2 molecules of mescaline joined to one molecule of sulfuric acid whereas mescaline (mono)sulfate is one molecule of mescaline to one molecule of sulfuric acid. The difference is the final pH of the solution when salting out mescaline with sulfuric acid. Around pH 6, it exists primarily as the hemisulfate whereas pH 3 it is primarily monosulfate. Generally speaking, the HCL salt is considered the standard as it is the most potent salt form.

One could test this by taking 100g of Mescaline hemisulfate, dissolving in water and basifying to pH 11. Then, using sulfuric acid slowly bring down to pH 3 with stirring, filter and dry the crystals they will weigh 119.3g. You will get more of a less potent salt form by doing this.

Mescaline freebase = 211.261g/mole

Mescaline (mono)sulfate = 309.34g/mole - 211.261/309.34 x 100 = 68.29% Mescaline
Mescaline hemisulfate = 520.594g/mole (211.261 x 2)/520 x100 = 81.16% Mescaline
Mescaline hydrochloride = 247.72g/mole 211.26/247.72 x 100 = 85.28% Mescaline

I guess just to be all inclusive I will add the weights of anhydrous citrate and sesquihydrous citrate (commonly made using the CIELO extraction tek)
Mescaline citrate anhydrous = 403.38g/mole = 211.261/403.38 x 100 = 52.3% mescaline
Mescaline citrate (sesquihydrate) = 430.4g/mole = 211.4/430.4 x 100 = 49.08% mescaline

I've never seen mescaline phosphate so I'll skip that one. I might as well make a dedicated thread regarding the different salt forms so people can use it to determine precise dosage in the future.

Very well put and instructive. Much thanks for those detailed explanations. Gotta save that somewhere!

My understanding of this chemistry is pretty basic but I think I'm getting most of what you're telling here. Love reading about that. Wish I knew as much as the members here who are super advanced into this stuff.