What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[youngbuck223]

Long time lurker of this thread, created an account today to share my experiences. I am USA based

First time doing MDMA was in 2017. I was probably 63kg weight at 182cm height, scrawny and unhealthy/unfit. Crystal champagne colored stuff, and it was a proper “traditional magic” experience. Between 2017 and 2020 i did mdma around 10 times. Each time was crystal mdma, with varying colors (white, purple, champagne, etc) and only one of those times did I have a meh experience, which i chalked up to be MDA and not MDMA. And each time i took about 100-150mg.

To me, the defining experience of the magic is the overwhelming empathy as well as the very high levels of stimulation where i could not sit still. I wanted to bounce around talking to everyone i met and tell them how amazing they are and how i loved them. And these rolls lasted a minimum of 4-6 hours.

Between 2020-2023 i did not do any MDMA. In that time i gained some muscle mass and got healthier, was around 75kg weight.

In 2024, I went to a festival in ireland and took a pressed pill that was absolutely phenomenal. However, i’m not 100% sure it was MDMA alone. I had the “magic” i described above but also a significantly psychedelic headspace as well as visuals. The experience also only lasted about 2-3 hours before i was back to baseline.

About 6 months later, back in the USA, i scored some purple MDMA crystal which I dosed at 150mg at a festival here. I also reagent tested it, which came up positive for MDMA and no MDA. The experience was 100000% what everyone explains as Meh-DMA. I was anti social, the empathy was minimal and i could barely even speak. I had no desire to move or even stand, totally couchlocked.

Over the next year or so, i scoured many different sources to find MDMA from different synthesis routes. Sass, pmk, maps, etc. Obviously there’s no surefire way to prove how things were synthesized, but i went off of what dealers said as well as anecdotal evidences. The supposed sass had the licorice smell, the pmk was champagne, the maps was a fine white powder, etc etc. All that being said, EVERY single experience was varying degrees of Meh.

I also tried different analogues/substitutes such as 3mmc, 6apb, 5mapb, 2cb, etc. all were pretty lackluster except 6apb which i found to be very fun and stimmy, but not empathetic, not a crazy tactile body high, and also very clear headed.

One experience stood out when i was in hungary. Went to a club, took way too low of a dose of 6apb and didn’t feel anything. My friend gave me a quarter E pill which propelled me to the magic state. Idk if its euro pills or the 6apb, but something happened there.

Anyways fast forward to these days, there seems to be a good bit of borax combo floating around which i had also been hunting for. I finally got some and I found that the borax combo experience is 90% there. I get the stimmy feeling, body high, wanna dance and move non stop. But the empathy is very much lacking and i do not feel as talkative as the magic i described from before. I wish it was more empathogenic, but beggars can’t be choosers.

Would love to hear others opine on my experiences, whether you can relate or if you have some ideas about why the magic is not there as much. I personally believe it is some combination of body/mind changes as well as things being more pure/less additives or just some entirely different analogues being passed off as mdma that can still pass reagents

 

[Allylbenzene]

I also reagent tested it, which came up positive for MDMA and no MDA.

It's probably fairly straightforward to add compounds [to the pill] which create positive reagent tests.

 

[youngbuck223]

It's probably fairly straightforward to add compounds [to the pill] which create positive reagent tests.

Well this was crystal mdma but that’s an interesting point. When you say compounds, do you mean adding non-MDMA compounds to trigger a positive reagent result?

 

[Allylbenzene]

Well this was crystal mdma but that’s an interesting point.

You can crystallise a saturated solution of NaCl, NaBr & Rochelle salt and produce a crystalline product.

When you say compounds, do you mean adding non-MDMA compounds to trigger a positive reagent result?

Yes. Maybe some add MDPEA? or 3,4-methylenedioxycinnamylamine? ...or even real MDMA.

 

[TheplugsPLUG]

Bingo.


You're not the only one.


In a way, I do know what you mean here, actually. Pressed pills today are odd. I think sometimes they get dosed with MDMA, a close RC analogue, caffeine to potentiate the MDMA and it's anyone's guess how consistent they are and/or how well milled the pill matrix may or may not be. That's why my conclusion for now is that we're only guessing with these things and the truth is that it probably varies quite a bit from case to case.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no, and I'm going back to the mid-90s, personally. There were bunk pills and counterfeit/imposter shit back then, too.


There could be any of a number of reasons for that.


Definition-wise, in my opinion and lexicon, "Molly" is short for "Molecule" and was given this nickname by the Grateful Dead Family who had previously taken MDA, which they liked and called "Sassy" and "The Hug Drug". They realized MDMA was only one molecule different, the n-methyl group, so they named it the Grateful Dead Family Jewel Molecule. Then they called it "Molecule", and that was shortened to "Molly". In theory they should be the same thing, but in practice we know this isn't true.

As there are different ages on here, I'm curious what you consider to be an "old pill" from back in the day, or rather: back in your day. There are different eras affected by various things… What years were your 'old pill' days you were talking about? I promise you this is just a friendly question, btw; no okie dokes…

I go back to mid 2000's and of course there were bunk pills but overall they seemed way more consistent and potent. Maybe this could be because the pills I used to get had more MDA "sassafras" compared to MDMA. That actually would make a lot of sense. The molly and E that I have done more recently seemed to be more of a steady chill good feeling and not much of a hangover. Where as, the old pills seemed to have much more of a build up until you "peaked" before coming down, leaving you completely "E-tarded" the next day.

 

[unodelacosa]

completely "E-tarded" the next day.

Ain't that the truth? Thing is: the amount of MDMA present in a pressed tablet apparently varies quite a bit. Just look at the data @Allylbenzene posted. Check out 2025 where the pills tested ranged from 93 mg to 339 mg with the average being 192 mg. That's a gigantic range, and frequently too much… I can't imagine dropping 339 mg MDMA all at once. Holy hell, the hangover from that would be savage. Suicide Tuesday is a bitch.

or even real MDMA

Yeah, I suspect that's the issue many times when and where it is an issue.

@youngbuck223 → the pill only has to contain enough MDMA to trigger the dark-colored reaction which can mask other reactions. This is what I would suspect, though it's possible to fool the test in other ways. Their usefulness is very limited, but they're better than nothing.

Well this was crystal mdma but that’s an interesting point. When you say compounds, do you mean adding non-MDMA compounds to trigger a positive reagent result?

So some compounds co-crystallize and can form contiguous crystals with certain drug crystals effectively cutting it. Seeing crystals is often a good thing, but it is not a guarantee of anything necessarily.

Regarding 6-APB: I like this compound, but in my opinion, 5-APB seems to be where it's at. That shit is It's probably the closest thing to MDMA I've ever had. I'm not surprised by the 6-APB + quarter pill experience, TBH. But it goes to show you: good stuff is still out there…

The Borax combo felt like something of a fad. It's too tricky trying to locate all the compounds needed and I really don't think anything can do exactly what MDMA does the same way MDMA does what it do

Personally though? I still prefer LSD to most other drugs including MDMA…

 

[Allylbenzene]

The Borax combo felt like something of a fad. ...and I really don't think anything can do exactly what MDMA does the same way MDMA does what it do

Agreed MDMA is a unique ligand.
I reckon Shulgins approach is a very good start (he used 2C-B-FLY + Imidazoline-1 & α2A adrenergic agonist) – add an appropriate stimulant(s) of choice (maybe + mild NMDA antagonist & anti-glucocorticoid to smooth things out).

The Borax combo lacks I1 & α2A agonism which is significant.

 

[unodelacosa]

Agreed MDMA is a unique ligand.
I reckon Shulgins approach is a very good start (he used 2C-B-FLY + Imidazoline-1 & α2A adrenergic agonist) – add an appropriate stimulant(s) of choice (maybe + mild NMDA antagonist & anti-glucocorticoid to smooth things out).

The Borax combo lacks I1 & α2A agonism which is significant.

Nah, no thanks. That's too much shit. If I have 2C-B-FLY, a drug I've used dozens of times and thoroughly enjoy, I'm just going to take that by itself. I love that shit, it's bombAF. And hey, you know, interestingly enough, 2C-B-FLY has a difuran ring structure which make the 2,5-dimethoxy groups inherited from 2C-B into a more rigid scaffold that's harder for MAOs to remove. Hence the potentiation and longer duration of effects. MDMA is overrated anyway, IMHO. Benzofuran drugs are so much fun…

 

[Allylbenzene]

Nah, no thanks. That's too much shit.

Hey, it wasn't explicitly for you!
I don't think 2 compounds is excessive, particularly if we consider the "polypharmacy" of botanicals. Based on Shulgins report 5mg 2CB-FLY suffices, and the I1/α2A ligand is OTC.

But regardless, the wider implication is that anyone can apply this using the appropriate compound making MDMA & *-APB somewhat obsolete. It's even possible without classical psychedelics or their analogs (no, it doesn't involve nutmeg).

And hey, you know, interestingly enough, 2C-B-FLY has a difuran ring structure which make the 2,5-dimethoxy groups inherited from 2C-B into a more rigid scaffold that's harder for MAOs to remove. Hence the potentiation and longer duration of effects.

I was reading Nichols early papers on this, they tried the 2Cx-hemiFLYs then combined them forming the FLY. On the hemiFLY note, the Shulgin crowd patented 2CB-5PrO (aka ASR-2001) which displays interesting activity. But I wonder what the 2-hemiDFLY would do.

 

[unodelacosa]

Hey, it wasn't explicitly for you!

You were saying it in direct reply to my comment. But, fair enough.

I don't think 2 compounds is excessive,

Let's count what you suggested: 1. 2C-B-FLY, 2. an OTC I1/α2A ligand, 3. "an appropriate stimulant(s) of choice", 4. a "mild NMDA antagonist & anti-glucocorticoid to smooth things out". So a psychedelic + a poteniator + a stimulant + a disso. That's not "2 compounds".

particularly if we consider the "polypharmacy" of botanicals.

Yeah, I don't just fuck around with botanicals, either.

Based on Shulgins report 5mg 2CB-FLY suffices, and the I1/α2A ligand is OTC.

But regardless, the wider implication is that anyone can apply this using the appropriate compound making MDMA & *-APB somewhat obsolete.

I doubt that. This does nothing to take individual pharmacogenomics into consideration. The research is lagging here, too.

I was reading Nichols early papers on this, they tried the 2Cx-hemiFLYs then combined them forming the FLY. On the hemiFLY note, the Shulgin crowd patented 2CB-5PrO (aka ASR-2001) which displays interesting activity. But I wonder what the 2-hemiDFLY would do.

So, the hemi-FLY chemistry is mad interesting, and Nichols' whole "constrain the 2,5-oxygen substituents" program is a good example of how small structural changes can radically alter potency and receptor activity. The FLY compounds really do show increased potency from conformational constraint, and several have MAO-A inhibitory activity as well.

What I can't co-sign is: "therefore MDMA/*-APB are obsolete." That's a much bigger claim than the pharmacology supports. MDMA isn't just "5-HT2A + α2A/I1 + a stim of your choice". Its character comes from the simultaneous, time-dependent release of serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine plus downstream hormonal changes and autonomic effects… You can probably engineer combinations that reproduce selected pieces of that state, but that does not mean you've re-created the gestalt. And adding separate ligands also adds separate pharmacokinetics, interactions, failure modes & whatnot.

So I'm definitely interested in hemi-FLYs as molecules. I'm much less convinced that pharmacological Lego automatically supersedes MDMA or the benzofurans. Sometimes the messy single molecule is exactly why the experience feels the way it does.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Let's count what you suggested: 1. 2C-B-FLY, 2. an OTC I1/α2A ligand, 3. "an appropriate stimulant(s) of choice", 4. a "mild NMDA antagonist & anti-glucocorticoid to smooth things out". So a psychedelic + a poteniator + a stimulant + a disso. That's not "2 compounds".

The HT2A ligand, a strong coffee and a polypharmacologal ligand for the rest. So 2 compounds and a "polypharmacy" drink.

So, the hemi-FLY chemistry is mad interesting, and Nichols' whole "constrain the 2,5-oxygen substituents" program is a good example of how small structural changes can radically alter potency and receptor activity.

Many earlier papers were already overlaying phenethylamines and indoles.

What I can't co-sign is: "therefore MDMA/*-APB are obsolete." That's a much bigger claim than the pharmacology supports.

That depends what pharmacology you're relying on.

MDMA isn't just "5-HT2A + α2A/I1 + a stim of your choice". Its character comes from the simultaneous, time-dependent release of serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine plus downstream hormonal changes and autonomic effects… You can probably engineer combinations that reproduce selected pieces of that state, but that does not mean you've re-created the gestalt.

No, in many cases the goal is to improve on the MDMA ethos! There are many pharmacological avenues & strategies to accomplish the desired effect.

 

[scientificMETHood]

Has anyone considered that that 5-ht2a receptor response might diminish as you get older? The 90s was 30 years ago.

This study showed this.

Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life

profiles.wustl.edu

 

[Rectify]

Has anyone considered that that 5-ht2a receptor response might diminish as you get older? The 90s was 30 years ago.

This study showed this.

Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life

profiles.wustl.edu

Good point.

 

[unodelacosa]

The HT2A ligand, a strong coffee and a polypharmacologal ligand for the rest. So 2 compounds and a "polypharmacy" drink.

Uh huh. Math. Ain't it a thing? Just teasing you; I still think it's a bit of a stretch.

Many earlier papers were already overlaying phenethylamines and indoles.

Sure, but what does that have to do with the published research of Dr. David Nichols and his group at Purdue? Academic pursuit is built upon standing on the proverbial shoulders of giants, to draw from Isaac Newton's shoulders…

That depends what pharmacology you're relying on.

The one studied in academia, accredited universities, medical schools and pharmaceutical companies. Is there another school of human biochemistry that I'm forgetting? I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "somewhat obsolete, especially within the context of the thread, even despite its loaded-question premise.

No, in many cases the goal is to improve on the MDMA ethos!

"Ethos" is a cultural phenomenon. Chemicals are inanimate objects, by definition, incapable of having their own beliefs, aspirations and/or agency.

I do recognize the intention that some researchers have had in looking for a way to separate MDMA's beneficial effects from its neurotoxicity. I maintain that MDMA is unique, but I find your pursuit interesting nonetheless and remain open to the idea of approximating MDMA, but a full replication of the exact effect of MDMA.HCl is elusive because 3,4-MDMA.HCl is something one-of-a-kind, in my humble opinion …

There are many pharmacological avenues & strategies to accomplish the desired effect.

Depends on the specificity of one's desire.

Has anyone considered that that 5-ht2a receptor response might diminish as you get older? The 90s was 30 years ago.

It does, and I brought it up much earlier in the discussion. We also generally produce more and more MAO as we age. It's like I've been saying: there is no one singular, slice & dice, nice and neat answer.

This study showed this.

Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life

profiles.wustl.edu

Thanks for being thorough and sharing the link

 

[realgar]

Has anyone considered that that 5-ht2a receptor response might diminish as you get older? The 90s was 30 years ago.

This study showed this.

Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life

profiles.wustl.edu

Sheline, Y. I., Mintun, M. A., Moerlein, S. M., & Snyder, A. Z. (2002). Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life. American Journal of Psychiatry, 159(3), 430-435. DOI: 10.1176/appi.ajp.159.3.430

Results: The decrease in 5-HT2A binding was not linear but on average was approximately 17% per decade from age 20.

My first mescaline trip was in 1997, and that was quite an experience. The dosage was rather small, 189 mg of hydrochloride. Now I need 400 mg for it just to be called a trip, so 17% per decade seems to be a very good estimate.

 

[Allylbenzene]

The dosage was rather small, 189 mg of hydrochloride. Now I need 400 mg for it just to be called a trip, so 17% per decade seems to be a very good estimate

Mescaline appears to be a special case (of all methoxylated phenethylamines) wherein it isn't a substrate for MAO (it's likely SSAO instead).

The ALDH enzyme seems to be more relevant to determining the activity of a dose. ALDH activity is dynamically regulated (including by common day-to-day items). If someone unintentionally uses things which increase ALDH they might assume their tolerance is naturally high. Conversely using ALDH inhibitors leads to reduced tolerance so smaller doses are "more active".

One of the most common ALDH inducers is sulforaphane from cruciferous vegetables, as well as a handful of supplements.

Results: The decrease in 5-HT2A binding was not linear

It's worth mentioning that mescaline is active at several receptors psychoactive besides 5-HT2A.

 

[realgar]

Mescaline appears to be a special case (of all methoxylated phenethylamines) wherein it isn't a substrate for MAO (it's likely SSAO instead).

The ALDH enzyme seems to be more relevant to determining the activity of a dose. ALDH activity is dynamically regulated (including by common day-to-day items).

You keep repeating it so many times that I feel obliged to take mescaline with disulfiram some day for the sake of science.

 

[Allylbenzene]

You keep repeating it so many times that I feel obliged to take mescaline with disulfiram some day for the sake of science.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend unless you begin with a very low dose. Plus disulfiram isn't a good idea imo, it's far too potent and long-lasting (ALDH is fairly important). Also disulfiram blocks DBH enzyme and promotes synthesis of tetrahydropapaveroline (DRI) which both exacerbate the issue (dopamine → dopaldehyde → tetrahydropapaveroline).

Short-term ALDHIs alongside avoiding ALDH inducers is a more reasonable approach I think.

To bring this on topic, well don't mix ALDHIs with amphetamines... this post demonstrates why.

 

[PtahTek]

You keep repeating it so many times that I feel obliged to take

same here
everytime i see this thread come up i immediately think of that shard in the fridge. alas i deny myself....

 

[placebonaut]

Has anyone considered that that 5-ht2a receptor response might diminish as you get older? The 90s was 30 years ago.

This study showed this.

Greater loss of 5-HT_2A receptors in midlife than in late life

profiles.wustl.edu

I don't know enough about 5-ht2a receptor behavior, how does this translate to meh MDMA? can you not just compensate for it by increasing dosage? if not why not?