Papaver somniferum

[WellTram]

@WellTram Kratom energetic/ mood lift make it among max i can take. ~ 10 gram along the naussea limiting its use beyond that a safe alternative. Worked great after a dental procedure, first time i took it.

Had some experiences with Codeine and Tramadol that kinda resembles Kratom ime. While Codeine was more like a weak o-DSMT only other opioid i went re-creative with. And that is nodding territory. Itching loved it . Nice experience but bit to luxurious good it was available only shortly.

Didnt even bother to abuse my one time prescription of Oxycodone. Worked great as prescribed. Broken collar bone. Very exceptionally considerate dr. to my surprise prescribing that.

I am ultrarapid cyp2d6 metaboliser and prodrugs like codeine and especially tramadol works for me as potent opioids. Having 30 % of ingested tramadol metabolised into M1 treats my pain for 9 hours and that is in form of fast acting oral liquid solution 100mg tramadol/1ml.
It feels like oxy being touched by something from the mdma or some serotonergic amohetamines and it is like hybrid of potent opioid with lower potency amohetamine-like compound with effects lasting more than 2 times longer than most of IR opioids.
Codeine makes me feel just morphine. Nothing special, it is potent and short acting, lazy opiate.

 

[Halif2]

Could I possibly destroy them by putting the pods in a blender with a small amount of water to pulverize them

Yes. You can make a tea with fresh pods in more or less the same way as with dry, but it's a bit harder and a lot messier!

Your initial post asks a question and answers it at the same time. Assuming that when you said "carry" you meant vary, this is why it is impossible for anyone to tell you what a good starting dose is. Imagine someone asking you "How much is a good starting dose of alcohol to get drunk for the first time?", but they are unable to give you any detail as to what kind of alcohol it is. It could be a light beer or it could be Everclear.

What I'd suggest is that you keep it simple, make a basic tea with the blender and some hot water. Give it lots of steeping time (couple of hours at least) and then drink a very small amount (like a shot glass worth). Then wait two hours and assess.

Your batch of tea might end up being virtually bunk or it may be lethally strong for an opiate naive person. Start low, go slow. Opium, be it from tea or the sap or whatever, takes a long time to hit peak effects and then that peak lasts for ages. Also, poppy tea can be really rough on the guts. You may have a big histamine response, you may feel sick in a way that ruins any high.. all kinds of things can happen. Just keep it simple for the first time uses and go slow.

 

[samcmf]

I've had horrible luck with kratom as well. I've never found anything opioid-like or worthwhile from it or it's extracts. The extracts come close but it's so short lived & the prices they ask are insane. You'll be spending 100 bucks a day on extracts just to maintain it. Which is ridiculous.

And I'm some one who also enjoys the atypical opioids, especially like tramadol. I love the opioids that give me energy to get up & clean & get shit done, while also providing powerful moodlift/euphoria & even nodding (when I'm ready to nod).

Even buprenorphine feels more "enjoyable" than kratom to me. And buprenorphine sucks.

You should try methadone then. It gives me energy and the nod when I'm ready for it

 

[Didgital]

I know poppies carry in strength but when growing your own what is a good starting point for dosage when using fresh non dried pods for tea?

I'm really glad you asked this, because my neighbor has a few patches of gorgeous flowers/pods, and he told me when I moved in, that anything that grows through the fence into my yard, I can chop down :D

I guess another question would be... when is ideal time to harvest.

Could I just straight up eat a pod?

Are fresh pods any different from dried pods in terms of alkaloids profile?

Sorry I am noob with this plant.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

You should try methadone then. It gives me energy and the nod when I'm ready for it

I would love to! I've had methadone in the past here & there & I enjoyed it.
But getting on a methadone program is a hassle. I'm some one who doesn't go anywhere in the morning until after I've dosed my meds & am functional. So I couldn't imagine having to drive somewhere to take my methadone every day. And the daily piss tests (pee shyness + urinary retention from opioids can make it really hard to pee on command). And I don't think the actual methadone is covered by insurance. They'll cover the clinics, but they'll only cover methadone if it's dispensed through a pharmacy, which the methadone clinics don't do.

So unfortunately, buprenorphine is the only "opioid" option for maintenance (and pain in my case) in the US.

Lately either the buprenorphine or the naloxone in there has been giving me INSANE migraines. I'm talking light-headedness & vertigo & all. I've been on it 10 years & dealt with the headaches in the beginning but then they disappeared for several years. And now they're back & more extreme than ever. And of course my doc refuses to let me take generic mono buprenorphine, because it's been stigmatized. It's ridiculous. Starting to think I need to ditch bupe altogether, but then I'll be screwed.

 

[samcmf]

Yes. You can make a tea with fresh pods in more or less the same way as with dry, but it's a bit harder and a lot messier!

Your initial post asks a question and answers it at the same time. Assuming that when you said "carry" you meant vary, this is why it is impossible for anyone to tell you what a good starting dose is. Imagine someone asking you "How much is a good starting dose of alcohol to get drunk for the first time?", but they are unable to give you any detail as to what kind of alcohol it is. It could be a light beer or it could be Everclear.

What I'd suggest is that you keep it simple, make a basic tea with the blender and some hot water. Give it lots of steeping time (couple of hours at least) and then drink a very small amount (like a shot glass worth). Then wait two hours and assess.

Your batch of tea might end up being virtually bunk or it may be lethally strong for an opiate naive person. Start low, go slow. Opium, be it from tea or the sap or whatever, takes a long time to hit peak effects and then that peak lasts for ages. Also, poppy tea can be really rough on the guts. You may have a big histamine response, you may feel sick in a way that ruins any high.. all kinds of things can happen. Just keep it simple for the first time uses and go slow.

I've grown them before and tried smoking the dried sap...that was a waste. I've also taken fresh sap and just let it sit in my mouth for a out 5 min the swallowed it, that was a very subtle long lasting buzz, comparable to about 10 mg of hydro that lasted for hours. I'm a former opiate addict and my natural tolerance isnt crazy low. When I've chipped before I can easily handle 20 mg of oxy, that actually seemed to put me right in the sweet spot. I've told my self 1x a year I can do an opiate, and I've been able to do just that without getting sucked back into addiction ,I skipped last year's dose. This year I got seeds from a reputable vendor that seems to be geared towards phamacudcal grade( Dutch buddah) is the strain name . I may just stick with the sublingual sap method because tea will probably mess with my guts like you say

 

[Halif2]

Could I just straight up eat a pod?

Are fresh pods any different from dried pods in terms of alkaloids profile?

Yes and yes!

I tend to think that for the vast majority of people, just keeping it super simple is the best way to go. Provided you have the right plant type to start with you sort of can't fuck it up unless you try to get fancy with it, doing extractions and dehydrations and whatnot. I have no doubt that there are people out there who can apply the various 'teks' that are all over the internet. The legendary 'cooked flake opium' concept probably works well enough for those who are experienced with basic chemistry shenanigans, but trying to create a refined, smokable opium is probably the best way to take a whole season's worth of painstakingly nurtured and collected plant material and accidentally destroying or massively reducing its potency.

Regarding the alkaloid profile of fresh or dried pods: From what I have gathered through lots of reading, there is a difference in the alkaloid makeup of pods through different stages of their maturation cycle. There are plenty of studies of the profile of somniferum of different strains, at different stages of the growth cycle, in different growing mediums, etc. But in practice I don't think the average Joe is going to be able to apply many of the tricks and tips that float around on the internet that supposedly tell you how and when to harvest to get the optimal results. In my own experiments of harvesting earlier, later, limiting water or nutrients, feeding extra nutrients, and all the rest, the best results I got was when I just left the plants alone and harvested whenever it was convenient to me. If you have good plants to start with, you'll likely get a good 'end product'. Same applies the other way round - "bad" plants, poor results.

In the opinion of this simpleton, just go with the KISS method (Keep Ingesting Sap Simply)

Personally, I think eating the raw sap is the best way to go if you have enough pods and/or a low enough tolerance. Second best option is making tea from the pods. You can also do both. Score the pods and collect the sap a few times over a period of two or three weeks, then cut the pod 'heads' off the plant, dry them out, grind them up, steep in hot water, filter through paper coffee filters or cheesecloth or something, and drink it.

But at the end of the day you can literally just eat a pod. It's hard going because those things are tough and fibrous, and the more plant material you consume the greater the chance of getting stomach issues. But you can do it that way and it will work.

 

[Xyborg]

I would love to! I've had methadone in the past here & there & I enjoyed it.
But getting on a methadone program is a hassle. I'm some one who doesn't go anywhere in the morning until after I've dosed my meds & am functional. So I couldn't imagine having to drive somewhere to take my methadone every day. And the daily piss tests (pee shyness + urinary retention from opioids can make it really hard to pee on command). And I don't think the actual methadone is covered by insurance. They'll cover the clinics, but they'll only cover methadone if it's dispensed through a pharmacy, which the methadone clinics don't do.

So unfortunately, buprenorphine is the only "opioid" option for maintenance (and pain in my case) in the US.

Lately either the buprenorphine or the naloxone in there has been giving me INSANE migraines. I'm talking light-headedness & vertigo & all. I've been on it 10 years & dealt with the headaches in the beginning but then they disappeared for several years. And now they're back & more extreme than ever. And of course my doc refuses to let me take generic mono buprenorphine, because it's been stigmatized. It's ridiculous. Starting to think I need to ditch bupe altogether, but then I'll be screwed.

Why do they make it so hard to get on methadone when they hand out extremely high doses of Suboxone like candy. If it wasn't for the hassle of driving to a clinic at the ass crack of dawn I'd choose those liquid handcuffs everyday and twice on Sundays compared to bupe.

At 4mg 90%+ of your opiate receptors are covered by the bupe. I mention this because I got wicked migraines on Suboxone too. When I self dropped from 16mg to 8mg they became less intense but still not something to deal with nearly daily. I basically forced my telehealth doc to switch me to Subutex. Suddenly, no more migraines. I highly recommend you speak with your doctor about switching.

I'm not sure what doses you're on but also strongly consider tapering down below 6mg. This I would do on your own without telling your doctor. You'll build up an emergency stash and make it easier on yourself of you ever want to get off of it; which was my ultimate goal. MAT docs and nurses tend to want to keep you on the medication and push back when you mention tapering down or coming off completely.

 

[Señor Moreno]

Xyborg is right: taper it yourself, but is has to be little by little and you need to be patient cause the slowest the taper the better you will be.
During a taper, when you've been weeks and months into the process, you may think "shit, I will be like this forever, I want to be free once and for all", then often people try to make bigger drops in their dose. Don't do it, stick to your original tapering plan.

Suboxone migraines are indeed a thing, many people report the same. Even bupe alone like Subutex is known for its headaches.
I have noticed that Targin (oxy/naloxone) doesn't seem to cause those migraines. But the doses of oxy in Targin aren't crazy, maybe 20 or 40 mg or so... but bupe's doses in Suboxone/Subutex are.
If I had to blame something it would be the massive doses that are used for opioid dependence. When bupe is prescribed for pain, they use (or used) 0,2 mg pills, but for opiate treatment they go nuts: thing on a single 8 mg pill, that's 40 of the 0,2 pain pills. Now take those dudes taking 32 or 24 bupe mg a day, that's hundreds of bupe pain pills.

 

[Señor Moreno]

Xyborg is right: taper it yourself, but is has to be little by little and you need to be patient cause the slowest the taper the better you will be.
During a taper, when you've been weeks and months into the process, you may think "shit, I will be like this forever, I want to be free once and for all", then often people try to make bigger drops in their dose. Don't do it, stick to your original tapering plan.

Suboxone migraines are indeed a thing, many people report the same. Even bupe alone like Subutex is known for its headaches.
I have noticed that Targin (oxy/naloxone) doesn't seem to cause those migraines. But the doses of oxy in Targin aren't crazy, maybe 20 or 40 mg or so... but bupe's doses in Suboxone/Subutex are.
If I had to blame something it would be the massive doses that are used for opioid dependence. When bupe is prescribed for pain, they use (or used) 0,2 mg pills, but for opiate treatment they go nuts: thing on a single 8 mg pill, that's 40 of the 0,2 pain pills. Now take those dudes taking 32 or 24 bupe mg a day, that's hundreds of bupe pain pills.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Why do they make it so hard to get on methadone when they hand out extremely high doses of Suboxone like candy. If it wasn't for the hassle of driving to a clinic at the ass crack of dawn I'd choose those liquid handcuffs everyday and twice on Sundays compared to bupe.

At 4mg 90%+ of your opiate receptors are covered by the bupe. I mention this because I got wicked migraines on Suboxone too. When I self dropped from 16mg to 8mg they became less intense but still not something to deal with nearly daily. I basically forced my telehealth doc to switch me to Subutex. Suddenly, no more migraines. I highly recommend you speak with your doctor about switching.

I'm not sure what doses you're on but also strongly consider tapering down below 6mg. This I would do on your own without telling your doctor. You'll build up an emergency stash and make it easier on yourself of you ever want to get off of it; which was my ultimate goal. MAT docs and nurses tend to want to keep you on the medication and push back when you mention tapering down or coming off completely.

Aaah, Yeah I actually just commented to you on another thread. I completely agree with you 100%.

My doctor sucks though. Been with her for about a decade & every time I've asked to be switched over to generic mono-buprenorphine, she refuses & says it'll never happen. Given me every excuse under the sun from the whole "without the naloxone, it's more abuse-able" spiel, (which I told her I knew was bullshit & that naloxone is just a marketing gimmick & even she's admitted that to me before) to "well Subutex sells for more on the street".. To which I thought in my head "And? What does that have to do with me? A) Not my fault people buying on the street are willing to pay more & B) I ain't selling my meds anyway, so it's completely irrelevant." You can do everything you're asked at these clinics, for years & still get treated like you're just some lying junkie trash. It can honestly feel degrading at times.

So I'm kinda in a shitty boat unless I wanna put in all the effort to go through some one else. Which might mean increased piss tests & all the crap I went through in the beginning of getting on Subs, all over again. It's pretty exhausting.

Yeah, even low doses of bupe seems to give me headaches. Although I'm not sure if it's the bupe or the naloxone or even the artificial sweeteners. Especially since I've never had the chance to give Subutex or generic mono-bupe a chance. I have had it before though. In the beginning I got a script for 20 generic Subutex while I had to wait for my insurance to cover Suboxone. And I do remember it feeling like a much cleaner experience, But then again, it was only for those first few days & I've had days on Suboxone too where I've felt pretty decent, so I just thought it was anomaly. Suboxone has always been kinda wishy-washy for me, where some times I feel alright on it & then I'll go through periods of just insane headaches daily, over-sedation, feeling numb in a bad way that full agonists don't make me feel.. It sucks.

Appreciate your response though my friend! I can always try & bring up the subject of switching & see if it goes somewhere eventually. Personally I'd rather be on full agonists for pain management too, but I don't see that happening in our current climate.
Cheers!

 

[Xyborg]

Xyborg is right: taper it yourself, but is has to be little by little and you need to be patient cause the slowest the taper the better you will be.
During a taper, when you've been weeks and months into the process, you may think "shit, I will be like this forever, I want to be free once and for all", then often people try to make bigger drops in their dose. Don't do it, stick to your original tapering plan.

Suboxone migraines are indeed a thing, many people report the same. Even bupe alone like Subutex is known for its headaches.
I have noticed that Targin (oxy/naloxone) doesn't seem to cause those migraines. But the doses of oxy in Targin aren't crazy, maybe 20 or 40 mg or so... but bupe's doses in Suboxone/Subutex are.
If I had to blame something it would be the massive doses that are used for opioid dependence. When bupe is prescribed for pain, they use (or used) 0,2 mg pills, but for opiate treatment they go nuts: thing on a single 8 mg pill, that's 40 of the 0,2 pain pills. Now take those dudes taking 32 or 24 bupe mg a day, that's hundreds of bupe pain pills.

I did not know that Subutex also had a rep for headaches. All I know is mine went away completely.

These sub doctors need to be held accountable for what they are doing. In my opinion it's worse than the whole "epidemic" that kicked it off. There is document peer reviewed literature stating that doses above 4mg and especially above 6mg there is little to no difference in receptor saturation. Yet these docs are pushing 24-32mg?! They know how hard it is to get off this particular drug. It can get pricey without insurance. It destroys dental health. For me it kicked my depression into overdrive (still not right after nearly 2 years off). Literally none of the upsides to an opiate but with all the negatives magnified. I'm not into conspiracy theories but fuck me if that doesn't sound like big pharma replacing the evil oxy with "pure and clean" bupe. This has to be one of the most obvious rackets out there. They are no different than street level dealers....getcha hooked on a high dose of a substance that is hell to come off of and suddenly you've got a customer for life. Actually, I think they're worse, at least you know the street level guy is pushing poison.

The drop from 16 to 8 was nearly effortless and painless. 8 to 4 I definitely pumped the brakes on how fast I dropped. Basically, you and your body chemistry will decide how much and how fast you can drop. This is the reason I don't recommend following a strict tapering schedule. If you have the extras go nice and slow. Listen to your body, you will know right away if you've gone too far or too fast. Easy fix just up your dose a bit for that day and stay on the dose for a longer period of time. The key to sub tapers is waiting long enough for your body to decide the amount you've dropped to is enough to keep the w/DS at bay.

Once you get below 4. Especially below 2 it becomes an uphill battle. Dropping to and below 1mg can be absolute hell. I used an unorthodox method involving legit roxi 30s and MsContin 60s to kick from 2mg. I just couldn't get myself lower. I will say that after I finished the MsContin I walked away without any withdrawal. Well besides paws that is.

 

[Xyborg]

Aaah, Yeah I actually just commented to you on another thread. I completely agree with you 100%.

My doctor sucks though. Been with her for about a decade & every time I've asked to be switched over to generic mono-buprenorphine, she refuses & says it'll never happen. Given me every excuse under the sun from the whole "without the naloxone, it's more abuse-able" spiel, (which I told her I knew was bullshit & that naloxone is just a marketing gimmick & even she's admitted that to me before) to "well Subutex sells for more on the street".. To which I thought in my head "And? What does that have to do with me? A) Not my fault people buying on the street are willing to pay more & B) I ain't selling my meds anyway, so it's completely irrelevant." You can do everything you're asked at these clinics, for years & still get treated like you're just some lying junkie trash. It can honestly feel degrading at times.

So I'm kinda in a shitty boat unless I wanna put in all the effort to go through some one else. Which might mean increased piss tests & all the crap I went through in the beginning of getting on Subs, all over again. It's pretty exhausting.

Yeah, even low doses of bupe seems to give me headaches. Although I'm not sure if it's the bupe or the naloxone or even the artificial sweeteners. Especially since I've never had the chance to give Subutex or generic mono-bupe a chance. I have had it before though. In the beginning I got a script for 20 generic Subutex while I had to wait for my insurance to cover Suboxone. And I do remember it feeling like a much cleaner experience, But then again, it was only for those first few days & I've had days on Suboxone too where I've felt pretty decent, so I just thought it was anomaly. Suboxone has always been kinda wishy-washy for me, where some times I feel alright on it & then I'll go through periods of just insane headaches daily, over-sedation, feeling numb in a bad way that full agonists don't make me feel.. It sucks.

Appreciate your response though my friend! I can always try & bring up the subject of switching & see if it goes somewhere eventually. Personally I'd rather be on full agonists for pain management too, but I don't see that happening in our current climate.
Cheers!

Yeah they will try to give you the run around on switching.... I at least had a doc that had some empathy. So after being denied the switch the first time, next visit I looked her dead in the eyes and said get me on Subutex or I'm going back to street opiates. That got alarm bells ringing and within 2 days I got a call saying you'll have a Subutex script this afternoon. When I said I forced their hands I wasn't joking. It is absolute insanity.

The abusable argument is a joke. Hilariously actually, I snorted both my box and tex. Literally no difference except the amount of powder. Not that I recommend it. I was tired of sitting at work with a mouthful of saliva unable to speak. Plus bioavailability is slightly higher and they'd kick in much faster.

 

[samcmf]

Yes and yes!

I tend to think that for the vast majority of people, just keeping it super simple is the best way to go. Provided you have the right plant type to start with you sort of can't fuck it up unless you try to get fancy with it, doing extractions and dehydrations and whatnot. I have no doubt that there are people out there who can apply the various 'teks' that are all over the internet. The legendary 'cooked flake opium' concept probably works well enough for those who are experienced with basic chemistry shenanigans, but trying to create a refined, smokable opium is probably the best way to take a whole season's worth of painstakingly nurtured and collected plant material and accidentally destroying or massively reducing its potency.

Regarding the alkaloid profile of fresh or dried pods: From what I have gathered through lots of reading, there is a difference in the alkaloid makeup of pods through different stages of their maturation cycle. There are plenty of studies of the profile of somniferum of different strains, at different stages of the growth cycle, in different growing mediums, etc. But in practice I don't think the average Joe is going to be able to apply many of the tricks and tips that float around on the internet that supposedly tell you how and when to harvest to get the optimal results. In my own experiments of harvesting earlier, later, limiting water or nutrients, feeding extra nutrients, and all the rest, the best results I got was when I just left the plants alone and harvested whenever it was convenient to me. If you have good plants to start with, you'll likely get a good 'end product'. Same applies the other way round - "bad" plants, poor results.

In the opinion of this simpleton, just go with the KISS method (Keep Ingesting Sap Simply)

Personally, I think eating the raw sap is the best way to go if you have enough pods and/or a low enough tolerance. Second best option is making tea from the pods. You can also do both. Score the pods and collect the sap a few times over a period of two or three weeks, then cut the pod 'heads' off the plant, dry them out, grind them up, steep in hot water, filter through paper coffee filters or cheesecloth or something, and drink it.

But at the end of the day you can literally just eat a pod. It's hard going because those things are tough and fibrous, and the more plant material you consume the greater the chance of getting stomach issues. But you can do it that way and it will work.

Saw a documentary where a guy was just eating dried pods everyday. He would buy them from a flower shop and eat em on the way to work. The highway he drove on ended up having an abundance of plants growing there from him tossing out the seedsoit of the window on the way to work.

 

[Halif2]

The highway he drove on ended up having an abundance of plants growing there from him tossing out the seedsoit of the window on the way to work.

That's amazing. A real life Johnny Poppyseed!

 

[Señor Moreno]

Poppy eaters, yes!. I posted, time ago, a thread about the detoxing of two elderly persons in India, a lady and a gentleman, both over 80 years old that had been using papaver for 60 years or so.
The lady was started eating opium for pain but then she became an avid poppy tea drinker, but the gentleman just eated dried pods and he was eating-aprox- 3 kilos of dried poppies per month, so like 100 grams/day. That's a good amount of morphine. (Worth to say that none of them had never used pharma opioids or black market heroin, only papaver natural products)

 

[TrippyToes]

I know poppies carry in strength but when growing your own what is a good starting point for dosage when using fresh non dried pods for tea?

How big are they? You’re going to need a starting point/weight