Phenethylamines The Big and Dandy 25x-NBOH Megathread | Post your 25x-NBOH info and questions here.

[6apebillen]

There is a very good likelihood that the tabs are much lower than 1.2 mg - so all these discussions about dosage become a bit futile. I can say a true 1.2 mg 25E-NBOH HCl sublingual were in the vicinity of ~ 50 mg+ 2C-B HCl oral for me in terms of intensity. From what I've heard the tabs are much less intense.

yea i heard this! thats why i mentioned the 'alleged 1.2mg tabs'
50mg of 2c-b would probably kick my ass in a MAJOR way lol

 

[tuppingtoncity]

I had the chance to assay 25B-NBOH at an unknown dose a few days back. I say unknown in that the dropper we were using (an extremely inaccurate and clumsy dropper, especially for a solution containing as potent and potentially dangerous a compound as 25B-NBOH) was supposed to deliver a dose of 700μg. My friend and I split a 'one-drop' dose as a an attempt at a threshold experience, although I would definitely characterize the experience as a solid ++, thus making me doubt the accuracy of the dropper. Very energetic, I have not felt such potent stimulation under the influence of a 2a agonist before; there were times, especially during the come up, in which 25B-NBOH resembled amphetamine with some typical psychedelic color enhancement. This compound is exceptionally visual, more so than any other psych I have taken, especially for such a reasonably low dose with a relatively straightforward, lucid headspace. Vasoconstriction was noted by both myself and my friend (although my circulation isn't great at baseline, so this most certainly amplified the perceived vasoconstrictive effects of the 25B-NBOH). Very loud live music paired incredibly well during this assay, and seemed to alleviate some of the pushy-physical stimulation (it felt as if the stimulation was being redirected into the auditory mayhem in which I found myself).

Certainly an interesting compound, although the noticeably uncomfortable vasoconstrictive effects even at a lowish-moderate dose makes me unlikely to try this compound again. Duration was approximately 6 hours, with 2 additional hours of residual stimulation. I dosed at approximately 8:30 p.m. and was unable to sleep until about 4:00 a.m.

 

[arrall]

I had the chance to assay 25B-NBOH at an unknown dose a few days back. I say unknown in that the dropper we were using (an extremely inaccurate and clumsy dropper, especially for a solution containing as potent and potentially dangerous a compound as 25B-NBOH) was supposed to deliver a dose of 700μg. My friend and I split a 'one-drop' dose as a an attempt at a threshold experience, although I would definitely characterize the experience as a solid ++, thus making me doubt the accuracy of the dropper. Very energetic, I have not felt such potent stimulation under the influence of a 2a agonist before; there were times, especially during the come up, in which 25B-NBOH resembled amphetamine with some typical psychedelic color enhancement. This compound is exceptionally visual, more so than any other psych I have taken, especially for such a reasonably low dose with a relatively straightforward, lucid headspace. Vasoconstriction was noted by both myself and my friend (although my circulation isn't great at baseline, so this most certainly amplified the perceived vasoconstrictive effects of the 25B-NBOH). Very loud live music paired incredibly well during this assay, and seemed to alleviate some of the pushy-physical stimulation (it felt as if the stimulation was being redirected into the auditory mayhem in which I found myself).

Certainly an interesting compound, although the noticeably uncomfortable vasoconstrictive effects even at a lowish-moderate dose makes me unlikely to try this compound again. Duration was approximately 6 hours, with 2 additional hours of residual stimulation. I dosed at approximately 8:30 p.m. and was unable to sleep until about 4:00 a.m.

Use volumetric dosing in the future.
You shouldn’t fuck around with NBOHs.

 

[xdrc]

Dosing so that 1 drop is one dose is very reckless. Personally I prefer "gravimetric" dosing with my scale, i.e. using mass percentage in solution. If there are any continued experiments planned with above solution, you may want to dilute it some and then titrate very conservatively to find a safe dose. This is an accident waiting to happen. Overdosing on NBOHs (both in the mental or physical sense) is not cool at all.

 

[Fungalize]

In retrospect a volumetrically dosed night would have been wiser - and achievable despite the specifically sublingual activity if one didn't use too much solution to dilute it. I'm coming to the conclusion that, regardless of method of administration, a dropper isn't the best vessel for something with this degree of potency, much less a dose-threshold of harm so close to psychoactive doses. In theory each drop would carry the same volume of solution, as it would become to heavy to adhere to the dropper and solution within it after a standard amount, but regardless that puts a lot of trust into the solution's potency being what it is said to be, which is to say a lot of trust for an NBOX.

Recklessness acknowledged (not aside), I'll second that this one is stimulating as shit. For the first hour of perceptible effects (T+00:30-01:30) or so, it genuinely felt like visually active methamphetamine. That is to say that I found the stimulation to be beyond that of a 100-200μg LSD dose, beyond the 'I couldn't fall asleep right now' type of stimulation, beyond any sort of background ignore-able stimulation; it was rather quite close to the rewarding, speedy-like stimulation of meth. 25B-NBOH, however, made perfectly clear it was not meth via the incredibly out-of-proportion visual activity it produced - much more, relative to whatever headspace could be said to have existed at my unknown dose, than any other molecule I've tried thus far (this being the first 25X-NBOX) - which was frankly a lot to adjust to at first. I'd never had an experience so visually altering from a psychedelic, and definitely hadn't come close with such apparent lucidness to my thoughts. These effects made for a very interesting cocktail of experience, one I think is probably best accompanied by a vasodilating agent of some sort and/or physical activity (which was practically compelled for me with all that speediness) if you hope to alleviate some of the vasoconstricting discomfort (which I only experienced a bit of - but I tend to fare pretty well with such things, so I attribute my lack of discomfort here primarily to physiological luck, certainly more than any prudence).

With this one piercing back into commercial availability, I do hope that others have the mind to carefully, ideally volumetrically, dose - while the NBOHs have a better reputation than NBOMEs, there is no reason to treat them as innately safer. A large part of why the NBOMEs have the rep they do (not endorsing it here btw, stigma ≠ anything good ever) is because they were fronted as LSD to unwitting customers and consumed unknowingly - NOT because of any inherently dangerous or risky quality residing in the molecule. Again, dosing volumetrically is the way to go here, you'd get by with ~20ml (in order to keep it in your mouth, sublingually but not orally active) and be able to start much lower than any other manipulation of a dropper would allow. My thanks to xdrc and arrall - apt message, much appreciated, I hope others of more wisdom than I take heed of that before administering this class of compounds.

Would love to see this thread get some more activity, especially considering the molecule's recent availability.

 

[tuppingtoncity]

Dosing so that 1 drop is one dose is very reckless. Personally I prefer "gravimetric" dosing with my scale, i.e. using mass percentage in solution. If there are any continued experiments planned with above solution, you may want to dilute it some and then titrate very conservatively to find a safe dose. This is an accident waiting to happen. Overdosing on NBOHs (both in the mental or physical sense) is not cool at all.

Very, very true. Not my brightest harm reduction moment

 

[xdrc]

We all do mistakes. In fact one of my biggest drug using mistake was with 25E-NBOH. Having read about the material, it didn't seem like 1.2 mg would be too intense. So I weighed out a small bit (of a private batch not commercial) with a very accurate scale, made a volumetric solution, and dropped pretty much exactly 1.2 mg under my tongue (if anything, it was less than that). What followed was not a good handshake dose as I had hoped for (given that one tab of 25E-NBOH was said to be mild, I expected an intensity similar to 15-25 mg 2C-B), but rather it was equivalent to about 50 mg 2C-B oral in intensity. First it was immensely euphoric and visual, the ceiling making a light show to the music. But then a switch flipped in my brain. It felt like my hands were numbing and as if I had trouble to move my fingers. From there I went in to a full on panic attack, attributing all sorts of weird signals in my body as my organs failing etc. So after much thinking and coming to the conclusion that it would be very unfair to my girlfriend and parents if I died here without even trying to call for help, I decided a medical professional would have to take a look at me and called an ambulance. Thankfully, they arrived without police, but let it known they were not amused in a rather unprofessional manner (I do get their side though...). At that point I had already realised I was most likely not at risk of dropping dead and did not come with them. Even had a very stressful day of work the other day with a splitting headache and temperature dysregulation. I don't know what caused my abreaction. I think most likely the "1.2 mg" figure those tabs are sold at are massively inflated. Either that or I'm very sensitive to the compound or pre-dissolving it in EtOH massively increased the bioavailability. My 25E-NBOH was never analysed but a single homogenous spot on TLC and a nice crystalline material.

Moral of the story: with these compounds, especially so the novel ones which are insufficiently characterised analytically, always do your own titrations and never believe anything on the internet if you're playing with fire.

It really was a giant slap which almost made me stop psychedelics entirely, as I'd always relive said experience in the following trips for a year or longer. In hindsight, I should have given myself more time to heal, granted.

Take care with the NBOHs. I believe them to be somewhat worthwhile, as the first half of my experience really was a grande spectacle. But dosing is very important. I'll not touch them again. I did try some 25D-NBOH (as I am sure any attempt at doing 25E-NBOH would most likely bring back all the trauma), but never went beyond some gross bodyload (which may be caused by me not trusting the compound).

 

[Fungalize]

Glad to hear you came out of that alright, if challenged...25B-NBOH could very easily lead to worrisome thoughts via the vasoconstriction as well, from what I experienced. I also had some very slight hand-numbing, maybe too slight to characterize as numbing, but a certain off-ness of finger dexterity and sensation that thankfully never presented itself as adverse or worrying (a slightly higher dose and that may have been a different story).

Is there a possible mechanism through which the Ethanol solution could impact bioavailability? If so, and this is very speculative, that could be an explanatory factor of the seemingly out-of-proportion doses in the - admittedly slim - corpus of Erowid reports (at least for 25B-NBOH, I don't remember if the other NBOXs had similarly large-seeming doses), where folks have taken 1mg+ (ostensibly) on blotter (i.e. not in an ethanol soln) and experience less intensity of effects than I'd expect. Of course I have no substantiated and accurate dose from which to assert that, but nonetheless any influence of ethanol soln on bioavailability would be interesting to learn of.

 

[xdrc]

FWIW, a friend who had prepared 25B-NBOH HBr told me he stayed firmly below 1 mg intranasal.

 

[tuppingtoncity]

Is there a possible mechanism through which the Ethanol solution could impact bioavailability?

I could only think of two possible mechanisms by which ethanol might increase bioavailability off the top of my head, although I am pretty ignorant as far as pharmacokinetics and bioavailability are concerned so I would love to hear any additional theories!

1) The ethanol causes partial breakdown of mucous membranes in the mouth allowing for faster buccal absorption (this is true, although I'm not sure how big of a role this could play considering the exceptionally small amount of ethanol solution consumed in my case - I'm not sure how much ethanol xdrc's volumetric dose contained); perhaps in the absence of ethanol, more 25x-NBOx is taken up in saliva and swallowed before absorption.

2) Ethanol's rapid buccal absorption causes the 25x-NBOx solute to be absorbed along with it (i.e. still in solution), rather than being absorbed on its own. Of course, for this to make any significant difference, 25x-NBOx's would have to have substantially slower or less efficient buccal absorption than ethanol which I could imagine being the case.

 

[Fungalize]

FWIW, a friend who had prepared 25B-NBOH HBr told me he stayed firmly below 1 mg intranasal.

That checks out, although I have no clue about the difference between intranasal vs. buccal/sublingual bioavailability (does one tend to be higher than the other?). Wise regardless no doubt.

I could only think of two possible mechanisms by which ethanol might increase bioavailability off the top of my head, although I am pretty ignorant as far as pharmacokinetics and bioavailability are concerned so I would love to hear any additional theories!

1) The ethanol causes partial breakdown of mucous membranes in the mouth allowing for faster buccal absorption (this is true, although I'm not sure how big of a role this could play considering the exceptionally small amount of ethanol solution consumed in my case - I'm not sure how much ethanol xdrc's volumetric dose contained); perhaps in the absence of ethanol, more 25x-NBOx is taken up in saliva and swallowed before absorption.

2) Ethanol's rapid buccal absorption causes the 25x-NBOx solute to be absorbed along with it (i.e. still in solution), rather than being absorbed on its own. Of course, for this to make any significant difference, 25x-NBOx's would have to have substantially slower or less efficient buccal absorption than ethanol which I could imagine being the case.

1) yeah for our situation I imagine the ethanol was pretty inconsequential simply because so little of it was consumed, although I know absolutely nothing regarding its impact on mucus membranes, so this is pure speculation

2) Ah so the absorption of the soln would expedite the would-be-slower-alone 25X-NBOX sublingual absorption...so if the absorption rate of the soln (for us ostensibly 95:5 EtOH:H2O) in which the 25B-NBOH is indeed faster that could mean it both speeds up absorption, flat out, and also would work via that first mechanism you mention, that is by ensuring less 25B-NBOH is swallowed due, indirectly, to the quicker absorption. I assume there is no real way to figure this out without some actual research, which may or may not exist, that established a buccal absorption rate for an NBOH? Far reach for sure, but itd be cool to know.

Interesting.

 

[4DQSAR]

The NBOmes overlay the lysergamides with the O in the ortho methoxy moiety overlaying the O of the amides. If people say the bare phenolic -OH is likewise active, OK. But the LogP IS lower which on one hand might make such compounds more hydrophilic.

But is this another 'mystery powder' situation?

NMR will nail down if that's a ortho phenol or an ortho anethole. Without that, who knows?

Without looking I would guess faster onset, lower potency, lower duration of action. How it feels subjectively is not something I ever plan to do... being a 'mystery powder' and illegal in the UK as well.

 

[tuppingtoncity]

The NBOmes overlay the lysergamides with the O in the ortho methoxy moiety overlaying the O of the amides. If people say the bare phenolic -OH is likewise active, OK. But the LogP IS lower which on one hand might make such compounds more hydrophilic

Without looking I would guess faster onset, lower potency, lower duration of action. How it feels subjectively is not something I ever plan to do... being a 'mystery powder' and illegal in the UK as well.

25x-NBOHs have been around (consumed 'recreationally') for nearly a decade now, with a reasonable body of supporting trip reports to characterize dosage, duration, some qualia, etc. Generally, a 25x-NBOH will be less potent than its corresponding 25x-NBOMe, probably for the reason you listed, that is the polar phenolic hydroxy group seems to reduce potency. Although as a generality it seems durations remain roughly similar.

Damn those UK blanket bans are horrific

 

[tuppingtoncity]

Not sure about the comparative onset between 25x-NBOMes and 25x-NBOHs though. Would be interesting to see, although I doubt there is a significant difference

 

[4DQSAR]

Damn those UK blanket bans are horrific

Not really - I just thought back and realized I must have interpeted at least a thousand GC-MS/NMR sets and I do not play the 'what's the mystery power?!' game. Honestly, it's shocking. EVERY SINGLE set sent to me by someone here on BL was either something else misrepresented or contained a significant amount of who-knows-what. Often it's not hard to work though how an intermediate enters a final product, but some totally unrelated chemicals are in there.

With 5/6 APB derivatives, positional isomers were consistently present. Now are they harmful? I don't know. But it did shed light ON the synthesis and let me tell you, it ain't pretty. Essentially, an aryl benzaldehye is the first step but the Gattermann-Koch reaction is kind of shaky when it comes to where that aldehyde goes.

That they didn't bother to purity a product one would assume to be impure is your classic Chinese model - if the market accepts it, it's good enough. Good enough is NOT good.

 

[Fungalize]

Upon reconsidering the dropper dilemma, I found that the solution was without a doubt evaporating, even with the dropper seemingly sealed. So, forewarning to whomever does their due diligence in scouring the internet before acquiring that 25B-NBOH dropper. My solution to that has been to evaporate it fully on a flat, glass surface and collect the precipitated 25B-NBOH, which will probably remain in its capsule until I can find a (more tightly sealed) vessel suitable to redissolve it into (much more diluted than before). Anyway, I hope that throwing this into the search engines helps someone avoid dosing a drop they think is less than a milligram only to find that it is well more than that.

 

[xdrc]

Dropper bottles are very leaky, I recommend using bottles with proper seals. GL 45 screw bottles will work fine imo. Replacing ethanolic solutions with propylene glycol is not a bad idea either, or water with a bacteriostatic.

 

[ErgotFiend]

Upon reconsidering the dropper dilemma, I found that the solution was without a doubt evaporating, even with the dropper seemingly sealed. So, forewarning to whomever does their due diligence in scouring the internet before acquiring that 25B-NBOH dropper. My solution to that has been to evaporate it fully on a flat, glass surface and collect the precipitated 25B-NBOH, which will probably remain in its capsule until I can find a (more tightly sealed) vessel suitable to redissolve it into (much more diluted than before). Anyway, I hope that throwing this into the search engines helps someone avoid dosing a drop they think is less than a milligram only to find that it is well more than that.

thank you for the heads up!

 

[Didgital]

The NBOmes overlay the lysergamides with the O in the ortho methoxy moiety overlaying the O of the amides.

I never really thought of this but I suppose your right. Makes me wonder if it were a 3 (meta) piperidine ring instead of a phenyl ring. Because then the nitrogens would also line up. You could even have an ethyl group off piperidine nitrogen. Off to the molecular poetry thread

 

[4DQSAR]

They overlay in Chemoffice after minimum energy calculations chug-chug-chug the flexible NBOMes into position.

I keep telling people that the 2,5-dimethoxy-4<something> benzene overlays the 5-methoxy-7-<something> indole. So be it a diethyl, (S,S)-2,4-dimethylazetidine or whatever are it's simply space-filling. and the fact we have the latter hints that the lipophilic pocket is key to binding and that the the 2-thiophene homologue of NBOMes is active thus we can more accurately explore that pocket.

Piperidine being saturated MAY be problematic due to it's shape BUT the ortho pyridine MAY work, given that the 2-thiophene works. The lone-pairs of the S suggest that the O lone-pairs are the important bits so why not the N lone-pair?

It does reach a point where synthetic complexity becomes an issue but I would bet £1 that 5-MeO-7-methyl AMT will be very similar to DOM. But like the PEAs, all of the alpha substituted tryptamines are chiral and resolution IS key. Plain 7,a-AMT is an entactogen and overlays 3-MeO-4-methyl amphetamine which Shulgin notes was sold AS MDMA in Italy during the 1970s. It just seems the logical middle-ground because if the simpler compounds are not bioisosteres of the simpler PEAs, no point in going further.

I find it odd that almost everyone is onboard with amphetamines being chiral but blind to alpha alkyl tryptamines likewise being chiral. Long, long ago I got a sample of AMT resolved and yep, one is psychedelic, 'tother an entactogen BUT with too much stimulation at active doses hence with Upjohn demonstrating that 7-methyl AMT is an order of magnitude more active as a serotonin modulator and testing that underlined the fact that the subjective effect is indeed MDMA-like. Just a pain to make as that 7-methyl indole-3-carboxamide what what Upjon started FROM although where they obtained it isn't in the patent.