Kratom How much do benzos help for plain leaf and REGULAR extract WD?

[Mycophile]

Your lucky ,after 12 hours without redosing I get wd.most people on forum will think I'm a lightweight but it's all I've ever known.i take it now just to feel normal and regarding benzos all it does is make me sleep and perhaps take away some anxiety but the wd are still there .
I love caffeine but without kratom I avoid it .
Klonopin is certainly 10 times worse to come off and kratom although is better than nothing does help if only slightly
In answer to your question regarding taking kratom like every other drug I just tried it once and loved it ,made me so much more sociablle person then eventually you just need it to feel normal.
In my experience only a mild opiate like codine helps
Yeh life sucks when you struggle to get through your day without kratom .

Ok then you are just super sensitive. I think I could probably even go 2 days without Klonopin without getting WD. I don't believe I've ever been in Klonopin WD but I just get super anxious if I don't have enough in me.

Why do you avoid caffeine when you aren't on Kratom? Is it cause it makes you anxious but the Kratom helps with that or some other reason? Cause if that's the reason then that's EXACTLY my problem. In fact, I believe if I'd never gotten into drinking coffee I'd never have fucking needed Klonopin in the first place.

The story is that over 20 years ago I had a day where I drank 5 cups of coffee and had a HORRIBLE panic attack IN PUBLIC with people who I really respected and so their reactions to it would naturally freak me out all that much more. So then I talked to my doctor and he put me on Klonopin, but truth is I always had problems with the specific type of social anxiety that the caffeine worsens, it's just that before I really got heavily into caffeine my Prozac was enough to help with it. But when I started drinking too much caffeine my anxiety skyrocketed.

So now I've fucking been addicted to Klonopin for over 20 years. I just didn't realize at the time (or even for years later) that caffeine was such an incredibly bad thing for my anxiety. I mean it isn't if I have like A TINY bit like just one cup, but for some reason I have a hard time resisting drinking more, especially because the Klonopin makes me tired and then I will use caffeine for that but then that makes me more anxious so then I might need more Klonopin and it's a circle.

I totally have anxiety and other disorders without any caffeine but it makes all of them ten times worse. I really wish I'd realized it back before I get on Klonopin.

 

[Allylbenzene]

1) What does caffeine being a metabolic enhancer have to do with it being a strong stimulant? I mean isn't it generally good if something speeds up your metabolism? Or are you saying it slows it down?

Caffeine boosts the metabolism (metabolic engine) which is the stimulating bit. Metabolism governs energy levels, mood, brain function amd hormones. Caffeine enhances all those things when it's used properly:

Symptoms to expect when you do coffee right are calmness, focus, motivation, warmth, and stable energy. Coffee done wrong leads to anxiety, shakiness, sweating, feeling wired, inability to focus, and sometimes cold extremities.

If you speed up your metabolism but without enough fuel (glucose, carbs) you get a crash, like what "caffeine done wrong" is described as in the quote above.

2) What are some ways to restore your body's metabolic system?

The core metabolic system involves the thyroid and mitochondria. Thyroid 'runs the show', mitochondria do the work, they turn glucose into energy. The keyterms to investigate are "support thyroid health" and "support mitochondiral health". Metabolic repair should be a fundamental part of all drug recovery & treatment protocols imo.

3) What ways do you think are good for dealing with Kratom WD and preventing future relapse? Cause I mean I don't actually want to stop at all

What's your actual motivation for using kratom? For fun? Mood support? Anxiety relief? From my perspective recreational drug use is just "uncontrolled self-medication", that can be for fun too!

But what ways do you think are better for tapering Klonopin/replacing Klonopin than Gabapentin or Pregablin (cause he's also considering that but says he slightly prefers Gabapentin)?

Consider what Klonopin does (potent pro-GABA) and what it protects against (excitatory noise: adrenaline, glutamate, cortisol, histamine). Then address each of those things.

One direct way is to lower stress (cortisol) which immediately lowers adrenaline. Part of this requires acknowledgement of the body's most potent pro-GABA/calming substances (ie progesterone, pregnenolone, testosterone). These also lower histamine and cortisol so it's a win all around. The metabolism is responsible for making these things (cue metabolic repair you asked about in question #2).

When you're making plenty of those natural endogenous pro-GABA substances you don't need Klonopin.

5) And while I am probably also going to start worrying here, what problems does Gabapentin come with?

Tbh it's alright as far as pharma drugs go but I'd consider the body's own built-in alternatives as better options. Just personal preference really.

 

[Allylbenzene]

...it's just that before I really got heavily into caffeine my Prozac was enough to help with it.

Depending how long you used an SSRI this is likely playing a role in anxiety-related issues. SSRIs are known for their various side-effects.

I mean it isn't if I have like A TINY bit like just one cup, but for some reason I have a hard time resisting drinking more, especially because the Klonopin makes me tired and then I will use caffeine for that

Caffeine is a powerful therapeutic substance that billions of people self-medicate with. It's excellent for supporting the metabolism, improves mood, boosts hormone production and more. Just needs to be used properly (add fuel: glucose/carbs/theanine) to avoid causing a crash and stress response (adrenaline: anxiety).

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

Yeah, I TOTALLY know that Kratom is a super mild opioid and that others are ten billion times worse. To tell you the truth, I find cold turkey caffeine WD to be worse than Kratom WD.

I have had some very mild Oxycodone/hydrocodone WD from taking some extras when prescribed for injuries but I didn't use much so yeah, that's it for opioids. To say it's my "first experience with opioid WD" sounds kind of funny though since I've been having WD on a regular basis for like 11 years of using Kratom, and also, by saying "first" it almost sounds like you think I'll be taking stronger opioids in the future (I don't think you assume that, it's just how it sounds) and I'm pretty determined not to do that.

Yeah, any lack of living an active enough life while in WD is honestly more a psychological problem than physical. I'm not going to let your anecdote of "homeless people getting shit done in heroin WD" deter me from my desire to figure this out because what they do or don't do doesn't matter to me. I just find I'm less productive than I'd like when withdrawing from Kratom and I'm trying to figure out a way around it.

Also, and I do try my best not to judge homeless people, but seriously bro, how much are they really "getting shit done while hustling"? They couldn't be getting THAT much shit done or they wouldn't be homeless, and a good percentage of homeless addicts are actually homeless because they are addicts, either because they can't get jobs cause their addiction interferes too much, because they weren't able to hold onto jobs because they couldn't afford their addiction and make enough money to survive, or some combination of those things. I'm NOT interested in becoming homeless and trying to up my productivity in my life while still using Kratom (and I find it DOES help me be more productive while on it but I always have to cycle off cause it loses effect) so there's really no connection here, and no offense, but it kind of sounds like you are being a little preachy here.

I NEVER said it was "the worst thing I've ever experienced." Not sure why you think I'm saying that I find it horrible. I find it ANNOYING. Again, cold turkey caffeine WD is way worse for me and I've tried that several times. If you want to talk about sucky shit I've experienced I'll tell you about the THREE times I tore my ACLs in my knees and had to go through 6 months of intense rehab to get back to my sport of choice (BJJ) and at first to even begin to WALK again or stand on one leg, or the fact that I've developed chronic neck issues with cervical disk disease and have to do PT 5 days a week for the pain.

And I don't really know what point you're trying to make by telling me (what I already know) that there's a billion opioids and other drugs with ten times worse WD. Just curious but what was your reason for even telling me that?

Cause it's sort of out of context and those entire thread was only my wondering whether or not Klonopin makes kratom WD easier so that my perception that Kratom WD is relatively easy is because I take Klonopin or if it's maybe not that big a deal. Opinions seem to be mixed.

So you think that Pregablin is better for Kratom WD than Klonopin or better than Gabapentin? Cause when I eventually have to taper off Klonopin my doctor says he's probably going to give me Gabapentin. He says he likes Pregablin but not quite as much. But then we are talking about how those drugs work on KLONOPIN WD which is like a ZILLION times worse than Kratom WD.

Wow, you really took all of this very personally and emotionally lol.

Saying that it’s your first experience with WD was by no means implying that you’re going to have another. It was to stress the fact that everybody’s first experience with proper opioid withdrawal always seems terrifying and painful, and to advise you not to get overwhelmed.

I never said that you DID say it was the worst thing you’ve ever experienced. Again, this is usually how people describe their first serious opioid WD experience. It definitely was for me. Once again, it was a grounding statement, one to let you know that you’re not alone in it.

All those injuries suck, I’ve had very similar injuries from a horrible motorcycle accident, and then further complications from continuing to work instead of healing properly. I’d still say that the opioid withdrawals I’ve experienced are infinitely worse. Probably because of the severity of my habits.

And just because you typed so much about the homeless people statement (lol): they really do enough to generate enough money for a gram+/day habit. And that’s an insane undertaking when you’re spewing liquid from every orifice, every hour.

You seemed to take everything I said as some type of personal attack, or belittling statement. When all I was doing was trying to comfort you l, since as far as I knew, this was your first experience with opioid withdrawal.

I’ve known three people who never used drugs other than developing pretty significant kratom habits, and when it came time for them to quit, all three of them had absolute come-aparts. Because they had never experienced anything like it before. They were emotional and physical wrecks. I told them exactly what I told you. They didn’t take it as a personal attack or insult, nor did they feel like I was derailing the conversation away from helping them.

Pregabalin is an excellent drug for opioid withdrawals. I once was forced to take NalTREXone too soon, and went into severe precipitated withdrawal. I had ~70% DNM fentanyl in hand which I snorted a LOT of, honestly hoping to die, it was that bad. But the naltrexone still held. Pregabalin is what saved me that day, and the rough days following. There’s plenty of other people’s testimony regarding pregabalin and opioid withdrawal as well.

And like I said, if you already have gabapentin (for some reason gabapentin was autocorrected to “abstention”, btw) and clonazepam, that should be plenty.

 

[lost weekend]

Ok then you are just super sensitive. I think I could probably even go 2 days without Klonopin without getting WD. I don't believe I've ever been in Klonopin WD but I just get super anxious if I don't have enough in me.

Why do you avoid caffeine when you aren't on Kratom? Is it cause it makes you anxious but the Kratom helps with that or some other reason? Cause if that's the reason then that's EXACTLY my problem. In fact, I believe if I'd never gotten into drinking coffee I'd never have fucking needed Klonopin in the first place.

The story is that over 20 years ago I had a day where I drank 5 cups of coffee and had a HORRIBLE panic attack IN PUBLIC with people who I really respected and so their reactions to it would naturally freak me out all that much more. So then I talked to my doctor and he put me on Klonopin, but truth is I always had problems with the specific type of social anxiety that the caffeine worsens, it's just that before I really got heavily into caffeine my Prozac was enough to help with it. But when I started drinking too much caffeine my anxiety skyrocketed.

So now I've fucking been addicted to Klonopin for over 20 years. I just didn't realize at the time (or even for years later) that caffeine was such an incredibly bad thing for my anxiety. I mean it isn't if I have like A TINY bit like just one cup, but for some reason I have a hard time resisting drinking more, especially because the Klonopin makes me tired and then I will use caffeine for that but then that makes me more anxious so then I might need more Klonopin and it's a circle.

I totally have anxiety and other disorders without any caffeine but it makes all of them ten times worse. I really wish I'd realized it back before I get on Klonopin.

I think kratom and Klonopin goes very well with coffee and caffeine drinks like red bull but one with out the other seems to me any way to add extra anxiety, sometimes I get the shakes from to much caffeine. Kratom and caffeine are a match made in heaven ,almost as good as kratom and alcohol but I find if Klonopin is missing that extra confidence is gone .
Due to the medium half life of clonazepam 5 days seems to be the dark spot ,the funny thing is on the fourth day I slept all day then never slept for 10 days I kid you not ,gabapentin did nothing except make me drunker than I should have been when drinking alcohol.
Insomnia is a terrible thing, I remember noticing all the little stand by lights in hotel room like tv,alarm clock ,air con and smoke alarm
I belive if I had been using valium for an extended period instead of clonazepam before hand I might have lasted a few more days

 

[lost weekend]

I'm guessing you've tried other WD/recovery strategies?

No unfortunately not ,I'm to afraid my whole personality would change and for people who know me and persons I work with would see a shell of what I used to be.ive had deep dark thoughts when the day finally comes when I have no choice but to stop

 

[PenguinWithNapalm]

Kratom withdrawal is really not much compared to true opiate/opioid withdrawal. When I’m in opiate withdrawal that isn’t horrible benzos help quite a bit so I would think that it would help quite a bit for kratom. Also from what I’ve read about the specific withdrawals that kratom causes it sounds like they would be really useful

 

[Mycophile]

Caffeine boosts the metabolism (metabolic engine) which is the stimulating bit. Metabolism governs energy levels, mood, brain function amd hormones. Caffeine enhances all those things when it's used properly:


If you speed up your metabolism but without enough fuel (glucose, carbs) you get a crash, like what "caffeine done wrong" is described as in the quote above.


The core metabolic system involves the thyroid and mitochondria. Thyroid 'runs the show', mitochondria do the work, they turn glucose into energy. The keyterms to investigate are "support thyroid health" and "support mitochondiral health". Metabolic repair should be a fundamental part of all drug recovery & treatment protocols imo.


What's your actual motivation for using kratom? For fun? Mood support? Anxiety relief? From my perspective recreational drug use is just "uncontrolled self-medication", that can be for fun too!


Consider what Klonopin does (potent pro-GABA) and what it protects against (excitatory noise: adrenaline, glutamate, cortisol, histamine). Then address each of those things.

One direct way is to lower stress (cortisol) which immediately lowers adrenaline. Part of this requires acknowledgement of the body's most potent pro-GABA/calming substances (ie progesterone, pregnenolone, testosterone). These also lower histamine and cortisol so it's a win all around. The metabolism is responsible for making these things (cue metabolic repair you asked about in question #2).

When you're making plenty of those natural endogenous pro-GABA substances you don't need Klonopin.


Tbh it's alright as far as pharma drugs go but I'd consider the body's own built-in alternatives as better options. Just personal preference really.

I wish I knew how to multi-quote (I guess I'll try to figure out sometime but not right now cause I'm lazy lol). Some of this stuff relating to caffeine and metabolism is also interesting to me cause I'm pretty into intermittent fasting whenever I feel like I need to lose weight, which happens a lot. I'm really into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and martial arts so I like to keep my weight in a good range for if I ever compete again (I used to do a lot of tournaments but haven't in years) and overall I just find that as a middle aged dude I'm often putting on weight and needing to lose it again.

So yeah, if you have read about or know about fasting you'll know that they often recommend caffeine as an appetite suppressant and to speed up metabolism a bit I guess too which helps with weight loss, and Kratom does too as far as reducing appetite, though I don't know if it speeds up metabolism. Plus with Kratom it works better on an empty stomach so that becomes an extra motivator to fast when I'm on Kratom so it's great for times like right now when I am actually trying to lose a few pounds but also just want to use Kratom for its own sake.

But basically you seem to be saying that having too much caffeine without enough carbs and or glucose can make you more likely to have a bad crash from it right? If so, that's very interesting because I have noticed that my caffeine crashes are worse on days when I'm fasting even despite it helping as an appetite suppressant and to speed up metabolism.

That being said, I definitely do still get caffeine crashes even when I'm eating normally. I mean I'm not sure that when the caffeine wears off I'm not ALWAYS having crashes, I think they are just milder. Like, isn't a caffeine crash just the caffeine wearing off and you noticing it?

As for Kratom, it's all of the above lol. I love it recreationally and it's basically my favorite mind altering substance, but it also works better than anything else I've ever used for my anxiety and depression and I also have chronic knee and neck pain from martial arts-related injuries and work out a lot so it helps for that too.

But when you say the following I'm just not sure what your methods are for "addressing" (and generally lowering) bodily chemicals like adrenaline, glutamate, cortisol and histamine. You don't make any suggestions. I mean me personally, I do the Wim Hof method which is a combination of cold showers, ice baths and breathing exercises and it most definitely does some of what you are talking about, and I work out a lot and, as mentioned, I sometimes intermittent fast. But other than those things I don't know about other non-drug related ways to influence those chemicals like you are talking about here:

"Consider what Klonopin does (potent pro-GABA) and what it protects against (excitatory noise: adrenaline, glutamate, cortisol, histamine). Then address each of those things.

One direct way is to lower stress (cortisol) which immediately lowers adrenaline. Part of this requires acknowledgement of the body's most potent pro-GABA/calming substances (ie progesterone, pregnenolone, testosterone). These also lower histamine and cortisol so it's a win all around. The metabolism is responsible for making these things (cue metabolic repair you asked about in question #2).

When you're making plenty of those natural endogenous pro-GABA substances you don't need Klonopin."

I'd totally love to be able to not need Klonopin by controlling those endogenous pro-GABA substances, but other than the few methods I've mentioned (which aren't by themselves sufficient) I don't know how else to do it. It's very hard, and, as mentioned, FOR ME PERSONALLY my body reacts VERY badly to caffeine, so I know the number one thing I could do to make it easier for myself to taper off Klonopin and generally be more relaxed with lower cortisol is to at best quit caffeine and at the very least dramatically cut down.

I don't think I can quit caffeine entirely and I'm not sure I want to, but when I have been able to just drink like maybe 2 cups of tea or one cup of coffee a day I am SO much less anxious and more relaxed. Maybe caffeine is good for you, but I'm telling you that no matter how well I "use it", no matter what I eat with it etc, that it is bad for my anxiety (and really most stimulants other than Kratom are bad for it also).

 

[Mycophile]

Depending how long you used an SSRI this is likely playing a role in anxiety-related issues. SSRIs are known for their various side-effects.


Caffeine is a powerful therapeutic substance that billions of people self-medicate with. It's excellent for supporting the metabolism, improves mood, boosts hormone production and more. Just needs to be used properly (add fuel: glucose/carbs/theanine) to avoid causing a crash and stress response (adrenaline: anxiety).

Trust me, SSRIs (prozac in my case) are not increasing my anxiety. Even though I'm middle aged now they were the one thing that entirely eliminated my social anxiety (which I call "eye contact anxiety" cause that's how it manifests) at age 14 and I was rid of it completely till I started drinking too much caffeine in my 20s and then it came back cause I just react so badly to caffeine. Even though ideally I would like to get off my prozac so I can hopefully use psychedelics for my mental health instead (and I've already lowered it from 80mgs to 40mgs and will be trying to lower it even more), it has really helped in the past as it works well for people with OCD which I MOST DEFINITELY have lol.

And again, like said, it really doesn't matter how well I use caffeine, more than just the littlest bit isn't good for my anxiety. It might be great for you or other people, but not for me.

It's kind of funny cause it sounds like you are trying pretty hard to make a case for caffeine being this super helpful drug (and I know it is for some people) but I keep telling you that it really isn't good for me. Different people react to different drugs differently, and caffeine is really just not good for me. But I can't wake up without it, so the best I can do is just lower my intake as much as possible cause it's pretty hard for me to imagine being able to live without drinking ANY coffee or tea.

 

[Mycophile]

Wow, you really took all of this very personally and emotionally lol.

Saying that it’s your first experience with WD was by no means implying that you’re going to have another. It was to stress the fact that everybody’s first experience with proper opioid withdrawal always seems terrifying and painful, and to advise you not to get overwhelmed.

I never said that you DID say it was the worst thing you’ve ever experienced. Again, this is usually how people describe their first serious opioid WD experience. It definitely was for me. Once again, it was a grounding statement, one to let you know that you’re not alone in it.

All those injuries suck, I’ve had very similar injuries from a horrible motorcycle accident, and then further complications from continuing to work instead of healing properly. I’d still say that the opioid withdrawals I’ve experienced are infinitely worse. Probably because of the severity of my habits.

And just because you typed so much about the homeless people statement (lol): they really do enough to generate enough money for a gram+/day habit. And that’s an insane undertaking when you’re spewing liquid from every orifice, every hour.

You seemed to take everything I said as some type of personal attack, or belittling statement. When all I was doing was trying to comfort you l, since as far as I knew, this was your first experience with opioid withdrawal.

I’ve known three people who never used drugs other than developing pretty significant kratom habits, and when it came time for them to quit, all three of them had absolute come-aparts. Because they had never experienced anything like it before. They were emotional and physical wrecks. I told them exactly what I told you. They didn’t take it as a personal attack or insult, nor did they feel like I was derailing the conversation away from helping them.

Pregabalin is an excellent drug for opioid withdrawals. I once was forced to take NalTREXone too soon, and went into severe precipitated withdrawal. I had ~70% DNM fentanyl in hand which I snorted a LOT of, honestly hoping to die, it was that bad. But the naltrexone still held. Pregabalin is what saved me that day, and the rough days following. There’s plenty of other people’s testimony regarding pregabalin and opioid withdrawal as well.

And like I said, if you already have gabapentin (for some reason gabapentin was autocorrected to “abstention”, btw) and clonazepam, that should be plenty.

No it's cool man. I didn't think you were like REALLY belittling me or attacking me in a big way, I just misread your tone a bit and thought in one or two places that you might be kind of, I don't know, maybe mildly judging me for one or two things. But I always misread people, especially online. I was also kind of overstimulated and coming down off a lot of Kratom and caffeine without having eaten much (see my comments to Allylbenzene about how I use Kratom and caffeine to intermittent fast for weight loss). When all I've eaten in 24 hours is one banana but I've had 4 cups of coffee and Kratom extract and plain leaf I might get a bit manic lol. I ate right after that post.

Anyways...yeah, Kratom and Kratom extracts (but I won't touch 7-OH) are pretty much the only opioids I use. I definitely enjoyed Oxy and Hydro when prescribed them but not more than Kratom and there's no reason I'd do something so much more addictive and dangerous that actually feels no better than Kratom. That's why it REALLY pisses me off that they are trying to ban Kratom in so many states. I mean the AKA supports banning 7-OH only but I'm worried that some states won't know the difference or they'll just see banning 7-OH as a stepping stone towards banning ALL Kratom. That's why I've stocked up and I'm definitely gonna be stocking up more. NO FUCKING WAY will I allow the government to take my Kratom from me. FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!! LOL, but no joke, it's so great medicinally and I hate the drug laws.

That sucks that you have injuries from a motorcycle accident. Have you done any physical therapy? Cause I'm big into lifting weights/PT and doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and if I didn't do PT regularly then I wouldn't be able to train and my neck would be in constant pain.

Yeah, I know that a lot of homeless people or just addicts in general basically have themselves a full time job just staying high and avoiding WDs. It reminds me of what the main character says in Trainspotting (both 1 and 2 are such great movies).

Luckily I am used to Kratom WD so I don't freakout when I stop. But that's also why I made this thread cause I'm still wondering how much of the fact that Kratom WD is easy for me is because I'm always on Klonopin and how much is that it's just not really that strong an opioid. I'm getting so many mixed responses here that it seems like I probably will never really know how big a difference the Klonopin makes unless/until I stop.

That really fucking sucks that you had that precipitated WD. Did you have to go to the hospital or did you make it on your own? That's why I am always super careful not to take Naltrexone till I am over my Kratom WDs. I don't care what any of these guys at NA meetings say (I was talking to one on Reddit a while back) about Naltrexone only being one step in the path to sobriety, FOR ME it's a great tool to actually allow me to still use Kratom and remove the will power from resisting it whenever I cycle off.

For me I just have found I can't stay on Kratom 24-7. I use for a couple weeks or maybe close to a month at most but then I always stop and have a few months where I don't take it. That's my pattern. My only concern is doctors potentially judging me if I'm injured again and need pain medication that they might see Naltrexone on my chart and stigmatize me as an addict and deny me pain meds. Thankfully I think my psychiatrist would PROBABLY vouch for me not actually being an addict and saying that I have it for past alcohol problems which are no longer serious (not actually why I really got the prescription but whatever lol).

And I don't have Gabapentin YET but I will when I taper off Klonopin, but I'm not in any rush to do that cause I don't want my anxiety to go back to being as bad as it was before. I really hope that Gabapentin is as effective as Klonopin for anxiety.

 

[Mycophile]

I think kratom and Klonopin goes very well with coffee and caffeine drinks like red bull but one with out the other seems to me any way to add extra anxiety, sometimes I get the shakes from to much caffeine. Kratom and caffeine are a match made in heaven ,almost as good as kratom and alcohol but I find if Klonopin is missing that extra confidence is gone .
Due to the medium half life of clonazepam 5 days seems to be the dark spot ,the funny thing is on the fourth day I slept all day then never slept for 10 days I kid you not ,gabapentin did nothing except make me drunker than I should have been when drinking alcohol.
Insomnia is a terrible thing, I remember noticing all the little stand by lights in hotel room like tv,alarm clock ,air con and smoke alarm
I belive if I had been using valium for an extended period instead of clonazepam before hand I might have lasted a few more days

Yeah, I also like caffeine with Kratom. I like alcohol with Kratom too (and throw in some weed too) even though it makes most people sick. Really my favorite was Phenibut and Kratom but I had some REALLY bad side effects from that combo with my Klonopin so I don't think I'm willing to risk taking Phenibut again. I don't even want to get into it cause it's triggering, but it's just not worth it.

Yeah, I once had insomnia where I could only sleep 4 hours a night for 4 months. I don't know what caused it but I hope it never happens again.

 

[lost weekend]

Kratom withdrawal is really not much compared to true opiate/opioid withdrawal. When I’m in opiate withdrawal that isn’t horrible benzos help quite a bit so I would think that it would help quite a bit for kratom. Also from what I’ve read about the specific withdrawals that kratom causes it sounds like they would be really useful

Benzos don't help my stomach but I suppose immodium would help ,codeine by far works best . They also don't stop flu like symptoms and lethargy.
I realise it's nothing like heroin wd but it's enough to panic me if I think I'm going to run out ,so much so I'll make tea at night but only boil it for 10 mins then freeze the remaining gunk for emergencies as it still contains active alkaloids. I don't have time for that in the morning

 

[lost weekend]

Yeah, I also like caffeine with Kratom. I like alcohol with Kratom too (and throw in some weed too) even though it makes most people sick. Really my favorite was Phenibut and Kratom but I had some REALLY bad side effects from that combo with my Klonopin so I don't think I'm willing to risk taking Phenibut again. I don't even want to get into it cause it's triggering, but it's just not worth it.

Yeah, I once had insomnia where I could only sleep 4 hours a night for 4 months. I don't know what caused it but I hope it never happens again.

Yeh luckily I was on holiday or god knows what I'd have done.
After 2 days traveling to get home with all the stress of airports the relief of melting a minty k pin in my mouth was the only time I ever remember a benzo being euphoric

 

[Mycophile]

Only partially related, but how different do people think Kratom tea made with plain leaf feels from just toss and wash? Cause I've only made Kratom tea once and I remember it hitting me hard but that was years ago. These days I just toss and wash plain leaf powder and use OPMS black extracts.

Does tea actually affect most people differently than plain leaf-toss and wash?

 

[lost weekend]

Only partially related, but how different do people think Kratom tea made with plain leaf feels from just toss and wash? Cause I've only made Kratom tea once and I remember it hitting me hard but that was years ago. These days I just toss and wash plain leaf powder and use OPMS black extracts.

Does tea actually affect most people differently than plain leaf-toss and wash?

It's slightly different, I find it tends to be stronger if boiled for 20 mins with lemon juice ,it has more of a sedating affect ,prob cos I use more powder

 

[Mycophile]

It's slightly different, I find it tends to be stronger if boiled for 20 mins with lemon juice ,it has more of a sedating affect ,prob cos I use more powder

What's your method for making tea? Do you boil the water before putting in the Kratom or do you put in the Kratom and let it reach boiling with it in there? And how long do you boil for and how much do you use?

 

[lost weekend]

Kratom leaf straight off the tree gives you a really stimulant buzz.just 1 leaf will last an hour or so

 

[lost weekend]

What's your method for making tea? Do you boil the water before putting in the Kratom or do you put in the Kratom and let it reach boiling with it in there? And how long do you boil for and how much do you use?

I boil the water first then add lemon juice then add the powder and keep stirring for at least 20 mins ,you know when the tea is strong enough as it will numb your lips slightly. I don't meusure it but I use about 2 tablespoons sometimes more ,I keep the sludge as its better than nothing in emergency.
I just drain it through a dish towl and that stops any powder getting thru ,add vanilla extract and honey and that's it .

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom leaf straight off the tree gives you a really stimulant buzz.just 1 leaf will last an hour or so

I've always wanted to try that but can't cause don't you need an actual Kratom trea to do that? If so, where did you do this? Cause I know you need very specific conditions and temperatures to grow Kratom and it takes a long time and pretty much only grows naturally in Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and maybe a few other countries in that part of the world.

 

[Mycophile]

I boil the water first then add lemon juice then add the powder and keep stirring for at least 20 mins ,you know when the tea is strong enough as it will numb your lips slightly. I don't meusure it but I use about 2 tablespoons sometimes more ,I keep the sludge as its better than nothing in emergency.
I just drain it through a dish towl and that stops any powder getting thru ,add vanilla extract and honey and that's it .

Are the vanilla extract and honey necessary or is that just for flavor? What about the lemon juice? Is that just for flavor or does that do something specific? Cause I've heard people say that that makes it stronger but I don't know.

Ok so are you just using whatever dose would normally be the right dose for toss and wash?