Kratom How much do benzos help for plain leaf and REGULAR extract WD?

[lost weekend]

I've always wanted to try that but can't cause don't you need an actual Kratom trea to do that? If so, where did you do this? Cause I know you need very specific conditions and temperatures to grow Kratom and it takes a long time and pretty much only grows naturally in Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and maybe a few other countries in that part of the world.

Yeh in Thailand ,in my hunt for the 2 litre bottles of jungle juice I walked into an outdoor cafe ,I seen the cooler and asked for kratom but got a blank stare ,the guy opened it and I pointed and he said "a gathom " that's how they pronounce it.he then showed me his tree round the back of cafe and picked off several leaves and showed me how to eat them .

 

[Mycophile]

Yeh in Thailand ,in my hunt for the 2 litre bottles of jungle juice I walked into an outdoor cafe ,I seen the cooler and asked for kratom but got a blank stare ,the guy opened it and I pointed and he said "a gathom " that's how they pronounce it.he then showed me his tree round the back of cafe and picked off several leaves and showed me how to eat them .

Awesome. I'd love to go to Thailand. Great Kratom, Muay Thai (I'm really into combat sports) and great food.

I hear Kratom has a bunch of different names in different countries.

How different were the raw leaves from plain leaf powder?

 

[lost weekend]

Are the vanilla extract and honey necessary or is that just for flavor? What about the lemon juice? Is that just for flavor or does that do something specific? Cause I've heard people say that that makes it stronger but I don't know.

Ok so are you just using whatever dose would normally be the right dose for toss and wash?

I normaly use less for toss and wash ,my tolerance is so high it would just be a waste ,its just to get me through the day until I get home.
Yeh I add the honey and vanilla just to take the bitterness away slightly

 

[Mycophile]

I normaly use less for toss and wash ,my tolerance is so high it would just be a waste ,its just to get me through the day until I get home.
Yeh I add the honey and vanilla just to take the bitterness away slightly

How much less? Like, would you just generally experiment to figure out how much is right for you?

 

[lost weekend]

Awesome. I'd love to go to Thailand. Great Kratom, Muay Thai (I'm really into combat sports) and great food.

I hear Kratom has a bunch of different names in different countries.

How different were the raw leaves from plain leaf powder?

Alot stronger and an instant buzz ,he gave me a small carrier bag [I paid of course though he never asked for money]it keeps in the fridge bright green for prob a week
You don't eat the stem just chew around it ,it's not as bitter as you would think .
I went up there almost every morning,I had so much in the fridge I had to chuck it out when we were leaving

 

[lost weekend]

Normally just 3 teaspoons in as little warm water as possible and then have a yoghurt close buy to drown the taste lol

 

[lost weekend]

I should have bought a grinder for the leaves so I could have maybe done something else with them ,but I just chewed a few leaves before going out for dinner etc.
Most of the security guards at hotel chew them although they try to be discreet

 

[lost weekend]

Are the vanilla extract and honey necessary or is that just for flavor? What about the lemon juice? Is that just for flavor or does that do something specific? Cause I've heard people say that that makes it stronger but I don't know.

Ok so are you just using whatever dose would normally be the right dose for toss and wash?

Oh the lemon juice helps to release the alkaloids in the powder but you can use anything acidic like vinegar

 

[Mycophile]

Alot stronger and an instant buzz ,he gave me a small carrier bag [I paid of course though he never asked for money]it keeps in the fridge bright green for prob a week
You don't eat the stem just chew around it ,it's not as bitter as you would think .
I went up there almost every morning,I had so much in the fridge I had to chuck it out when we were leaving

Man you're lucky. So I guess there's really no way to get the fresh leaves in the U.S.? I mean I guess by the time they get to us they wouldn't be fresh anymore? I really want to try it.

 

[lost weekend]

Man you're lucky. So I guess there's really no way to get the fresh leaves in the U.S.? I mean I guess by the time they get to us they wouldn't be fresh anymore? I really want to try it.

I guess they have to seal them some how ,maybe vacuum pack I'm not sure,I know they stay vivid green a long time after being picked,I stored mine in the fridge but I don't think that's the best place for them due to moisture.
I was like a kid in a candy store ,it's not really that popular for westerners so the Thai's don't really advertise it.they sell it mostly to manual Thai workers every morning.
That's in phucket might be different elsewhere .
They do have craft drinks advertised in cannibas shops but there garbage and expensive.
The first day I was there I kept asking for kratom but they had no clue what I was saying ,once I figured it was called gathom I was sorted

 

[Allylbenzene]

But basically you seem to be saying that having too much caffeine without enough carbs and or glucose can make you more likely to have a bad crash from it right? If so, that's very interesting because I have noticed that my caffeine crashes are worse on days when I'm fasting

Caffeine accelerate the engine which crashes without fuel (carbs/glucose).

Caffeine + fasting = cortisol​

Symptoms to expect when you do coffee right are calmness, focus, motivation, warmth, and stable energy. Coffee done wrong leads to anxiety, shakiness, sweating, feeling wired, inability to focus, and sometimes cold extremities.​

Like, isn't a caffeine crash just the caffeine wearing off and you noticing it?

No, it's more of a "metabolic engine crash".

I do the Wim Hof method which is a combination of cold showers, ice baths and breathing exercises and it most definitely does some of what you are talking about, and I work out a lot and, as mentioned, I sometimes intermittent fast.

Cold does the opposite tbh, it's most suited for people who have a strong metabolism. Fasting also makes things more difficult for people with metabolic issues because it triggers cortisol.

I don't think I can quit caffeine entirely and I'm not sure I want to, but when I have been able to just drink like maybe 2 cups of tea or one cup of coffee a day I am SO much less anxious and more relaxed.

It sounds like caffeine is helping to kick-start your metabolism. Some people combine it with theanine which helps to block the negative cortisol effect that caffeine causes for some people.

And again, like said, it really doesn't matter how well I use caffeine, more than just the littlest bit isn't good for my anxiety. It might be great for you or other people, but not for me.

I don't use caffeine.

It's kind of funny cause it sounds like you are trying pretty hard to make a case for caffeine being this super helpful drug

Billions of people self-medicate with caffeine to support their metabolism. The people with an underactive metabolism tend to really enjoy caffeine and rely on it to function.

caffeine ... I can't wake up without it, ... it's pretty hard for me to imagine being able to live without drinking ANY coffee or tea.

It sounds like you're relying on caffeines metabolic boosting effect. People with thyroid (metabolic) issues tend to enjoy caffeine (see image below).

 

[Mycophile]

Caffeine accelerate the engine which crashes without fuel (carbs/glucose).

Caffeine + fasting = cortisol​

Symptoms to expect when you do coffee right are calmness, focus, motivation, warmth, and stable energy. Coffee done wrong leads to anxiety, shakiness, sweating, feeling wired, inability to focus, and sometimes cold extremities.​

No, it's more of a "metabolic engine crash".


Cold does the opposite tbh, it's most suited for people who have a strong metabolism. Fasting also makes things more difficult for people with metabolic issues because it triggers cortisol.


It sounds like caffeine is helping to kick-start your metabolism. Some people combine it with theanine which helps to block the negative cortisol effect that caffeine causes for some people.


I don't use caffeine.


Billions of people self-medicate with caffeine to support their metabolism. The people with an underactive metabolism tend to really enjoy caffeine and rely on it to function.


It sounds like you're relying on caffeines metabolic boosting effect. To paraphrase, "caffeine does what thyroid would normally do". People with thyroid (metabolic) issues love caffeine, especially those with hypothyroid (see image below).

I'm kind of confused by all this.

First off, why do you think I'm "relying on caffeine's thyroid boosting effects" and that I'm "using it to kick start my metabolism"?

Cause I don't really know much about metabolism or body-science but when I hear metabolism I think of eating and the rate at which I burn off calories and while I did mention that I SOMETIMES fast I don't usually fast and I'm not intentionally trying to use caffeine for anything related to metabolism. I don't think I have any issues with my metabolism. When I fast I burn off calories pretty effectively but I am not really prone to putting on more weight or rapidly losing more weight than your average guy of my age.

I use caffeine frankly because I'm addicted to it and also because I take Klonopin which I know I need to eventually stop but which makes me more tired and psychologically I just kind of hate being tired. It actually totally works at cross-purposes to my Klonopin cause that is for anxiety and the caffeine exacerbates my anxiety and my doctors have told me this.

In a perfect world I would entirely quit caffeine, but you seem to be sort of suggesting that it's helping me when I'm saying it REALLY isn't. Are you suggesting that it is helping me in some way, and if so, why?

And which of the two from above are you theorizing that I have, hyperthyrodism or hypothyroidism? Cause I honestly don't think I have either or a doctor probably would have said so by now.

My mother has Grave's disease which I know is in some ways related to hyperthyroidism but I've never been diagnosed with it or anything related to it.

I do NOT enjoy caffeine's effect beyond the very first initial boost it gives me to wake up in the morning (past that point it is counterproductive), but it seems you are suggesting that I do, and I think that the fact that you don't drink caffeine may make you less aware of how hard it is for those who DON'T like it but are addicted to it and rely on it to function.

I can honestly only handle the littlest bit without it negatively affecting my anxiety and it greatly worsens my OCD and anxiety but my OCD also sort of convinces me to drink more caffeine which is a weird vicious cycle.

I think you are honestly attributing things relating to caffeine's mental and psychological effects with its physical effects.

I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, OCD, depression and nonverbal learning disability. These lead me to look for things to make me LESS anxious and caffeine is NOT good for me and I've tried to quit it many times.

I also don't have many of the things on those lists. It seems you are trying to diagnose me with hypothyrodism which I DON'T have, but I do NOT have cold sensitivity (I take cold showers daily), a puffy face, more weight gain than your average middle aged guy who likes to eat but is really pretty much a normal weight (5'7, muscular but 179lbs), I don't have thinning hair OR hair loss or issues with my libido. I do have some heat sensitivity I guess but honestly caffeine makes that worse cause it raises one's body temperature. I also don't have memory issues but yes I do have fatigue issues.

Do you understand what I'm explaining to you? Cause I don't get what you are trying to say lol.

 

[Allylbenzene]

First off, why do you think I'm "relying on caffeine's thyroid boosting effects" and that I'm "using it to kick start my metabolism"?

Because of how caffeine works to boost thyroid function (aka boosts the metabolic engine). This is why I described it as "caffeine is kick-starting your metabolic engine". Caffeine will accelerate the engine (which provides relief) but will cause a crash & anxiety if the engine has issues and/or lacks fuel (glucose, carbs).

...I'm not intentionally trying to use caffeine for anything related to metabolism.

From your earlier post:

I don't think I can quit caffeine entirely and I'm not sure I want to
...
caffeine ... I can't wake up without it, ... it's pretty hard for me to imagine being able to live without drinking ANY coffee or tea.

I use caffeine frankly because I'm addicted to it

I'd interpret it as self-medication for therapeutic purposes. Many people use caffeine for the exact same reason as you.

In a perfect world I would entirely quit caffeine, but you seem to be sort of suggesting that it's helping me when I'm saying it REALLY isn't. Are you suggesting that it is helping me in some way, and if so, why?

I'm just suggesting that you're using caffeine as a supportive metabolic booster, but you're using it inappropriately which is causing the negative effects.

And which of the two from above are you theorizing that I have, hyperthyrodism or hypothyroidism? Cause I honestly don't think I have either or a doctor probably would have said so by now.

Usually it's people with an underactive metabolic system who will enjoy caffeine. But people with an overactive metabolic system might also like caffeine.

I do NOT enjoy caffeine's effect beyond the very first initial boost it gives me to wake up in the morning (past that point it is counterproductive)

Why don't you try pairing it with something to prevent it's negative effects? This is usually what people do to make their caffeine use sustainable.

I also don't have many of the things on those lists.

I posted it to give an overview of things and as a reference point.

 

[lost weekend]

I'm kind of confused by all this.

First off, why do you think I'm "relying on caffeine's thyroid boosting effects" and that I'm "using it to kick start my metabolism"?

Cause I don't really know much about metabolism or body-science but when I hear metabolism I think of eating and the rate at which I burn off calories and while I did mention that I SOMETIMES fast I don't usually fast and I'm not intentionally trying to use caffeine for anything related to metabolism. I don't think I have any issues with my metabolism. When I fast I burn off calories pretty effectively but I am not really prone to putting on more weight or rapidly losing more weight than your average guy of my age.

I use caffeine frankly because I'm addicted to it and also because I take Klonopin which I know I need to eventually stop but which makes me more tired and psychologically I just kind of hate being tired. It actually totally works at cross-purposes to my Klonopin cause that is for anxiety and the caffeine exacerbates my anxiety and my doctors have told me this.

In a perfect world I would entirely quit caffeine, but you seem to be sort of suggesting that it's helping me when I'm saying it REALLY isn't. Are you suggesting that it is helping me in some way, and if so, why?

And which of the two from above are you theorizing that I have, hyperthyrodism or hypothyroidism? Cause I honestly don't think I have either or a doctor probably would have said so by now.

My mother has Grave's disease which I know is in some ways related to hyperthyroidism but I've never been diagnosed with it or anything related to it.

I do NOT enjoy caffeine's effect beyond the very first initial boost it gives me to wake up in the morning (past that point it is counterproductive), but it seems you are suggesting that I do, and I think that the fact that you don't drink caffeine may make you less aware of how hard it is for those who DON'T like it but are addicted to it and rely on it to function.

I can honestly only handle the littlest bit without it negatively affecting my anxiety and it greatly worsens my OCD and anxiety but my OCD also sort of convinces me to drink more caffeine which is a weird vicious cycle.

I think you are honestly attributing things relating to caffeine's mental and psychological effects with its physical effects.

I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, OCD, depression and nonverbal learning disability. These lead me to look for things to make me LESS anxious and caffeine is NOT good for me and I've tried to quit it many times.

I also don't have many of the things on those lists. It seems you are trying to diagnose me with hypothyrodism which I DON'T have, but I do NOT have cold sensitivity (I take cold showers daily), a puffy face, more weight gain than your average middle aged guy who likes to eat but is really pretty much a normal weight (5'7, muscular but 179lbs), I don't have thinning hair OR hair loss or issues with my libido. I do have some heat sensitivity I guess but honestly caffeine makes that worse cause it raises one's body temperature. I also don't have memory issues but yes I do have fatigue issues.

Do you understand what I'm explaining to you? Cause I don't get what you are trying to say lol.

If you ever stop Klonopin caffeine is one to completely avoid ,it won't taste nice and just make you more anxious and obviously hinder what sleep you might get.
Quite the opposite of when you are taking it
Also fasting is something I do everyday more out of habit as it seems to help with kratom dosing and I've gotten into the habbit of it.beer also tastes better on an empty stomach and hits faster .I've never tried 2 combinations that go together so well .

 

[Mycophile]

Because of how caffeine works to boost thyroid function (aka boosts the metabolic engine). This is why I described it as "caffeine is kick-starting your metabolic engine". Caffeine will accelerate the engine (which provides relief) but will cause a crash & anxiety if the engine has issues and/or lacks fuel (glucose, carbs).


From your earlier post:



I'd interpret it as self-medication for therapeutic purposes. Many people use caffeine for the exact same reason as you.


I'm just suggesting that you're using caffeine as a supportive metabolic booster, but you're using it inappropriately which is causing the negative effects.


Usually it's people with an underactive metabolic system who will enjoy caffeine. But people with an overactive metabolic system might also like caffeine.


Why don't you try pairing it with something to prevent it's negative effects? This is usually what people do to make their caffeine use sustainable.


I posted it to give an overview of things and as a reference point.

Caffeine may have an effect on metabolism but that doesn't mean I'm using it for that reason. If I am it certainly isn't intentional. I only like the very first initial buzz and wake up effect but beyond that first cup it just exacerbates my anxiety. I don't really think that you can make a blanket statement about people enjoying caffeine because of underactive metabolic system since it's literally the single most popular mind altering drug on planet earth (some wouldn't consider it mind altering but I do). People use it because it helps them wake up and they don't like being tired and then they get addicted.

Maybe some small percentage uses it the way you are talking about, but again, I don't, and I don't think my metabolism is really probably very different from a man my age and size cause I'm pretty average in terms of my fat percentage and the amount I eat.

What would I pair it with to help with the negative effects? L-Theanine? I've tried that and it didn't seem to do much but it's been years so I guess I could try again. When I take Kratom they pair well but I don't always take Kratom cause I don't like the dependency so I'm frequently cycling off and back on.

How do you think I could "use it more appropriately" (other than simply drinking less which I should do but can never seem to maintain)? I know I was better when I drank black tea instead of coffee and i'd like to get back to that but it's hard.

 

[Mycophile]

If you ever stop Klonopin caffeine is one to completely avoid ,it won't taste nice and just make you more anxious and obviously hinder what sleep you might get.
Quite the opposite of when you are taking it
Also fasting is something I do everyday more out of habit as it seems to help with kratom dosing and I've gotten into the habbit of it.beer also tastes better on an empty stomach and hits faster .I've never tried 2 combinations that go together so well .

Yeah you are totally right. I honestly am pretty sure I would never have needed Klonopin in the first place if I'd never gotten into caffeine. I don't think I'll be able to stop one or the other without stopping the other. My anxiety is already bad enough on Klonopin. I desperately hope that some day I can get off both. I guess the good news is if I get off Klonopin I'll probably be much less tired so it would probably be easier to not drink so much caffeine. I'd just get too anxious, but I might still want or need that very first cup.

How did you know that? Were you drinking caffeine on Klonopin and then stopped one or both or is it just something you heard?

Fasting is great on Kratom but I'd never want to drink any kind of alcohol on an empty stomach. I know without even trying that that would just really make my stomach feel like shit.

 

[lost weekend]

Yeah you are totally right. I honestly am pretty sure I would never have needed Klonopin in the first place if I'd never gotten into caffeine. I don't think I'll be able to stop one or the other without stopping the other. My anxiety is already bad enough on Klonopin. I desperately hope that some day I can get off both. I guess the good news is if I get off Klonopin I'll probably be much less tired so it would probably be easier to not drink so much caffeine. I'd just get too anxious, but I might still want or need that very first cup.

How did you know that? Were you drinking caffeine on Klonopin and then stopped one or both or is it just something you heard?

Fasting is great on Kratom but I'd never want to drink any kind of alcohol on an empty stomach. I know without even trying that that would just really make my stomach feel like shit.

When I was in wd with Klonopin I couldn't even take 1 sip of my favourite coffee, it tasted awfull and instantly made me jittery ,not what you want
While on Klonopin I would drink lattes, red bull ,monster you name it

 

[lost weekend]

Yeah you are totally right. I honestly am pretty sure I would never have needed Klonopin in the first place if I'd never gotten into caffeine. I don't think I'll be able to stop one or the other without stopping the other. My anxiety is already bad enough on Klonopin. I desperately hope that some day I can get off both. I guess the good news is if I get off Klonopin I'll probably be much less tired so it would probably be easier to not drink so much caffeine. I'd just get too anxious, but I might still want or need that very first cup.

How did you know that? Were you drinking caffeine on Klonopin and then stopped one or both or is it just something you heard?

Fasting is great on Kratom but I'd never want to drink any kind of alcohol on an empty stomach. I know without even trying that that would just really make my stomach feel like shit.

The lethargy that comes with benzo withdrawal is awful ,your tired but you can't sleep
Once the physical wd are gone you have to deal with mental withdrawals, it's almost like your brain has to totally rewire itself and it takes a long time.
I used to dream of scoring benzos and it's sad to say its some of the best dreams I've had

 

[Mycophile]

The lethargy that comes with benzo withdrawal is awful ,your tired but you can't sleep
Once the physical wd are gone you have to deal with mental withdrawals, it's almost like your brain has to totally rewire itself and it takes a long time.
I used to dream of scoring benzos and it's sad to say its some of the best dreams I've had

Sorry. I'd rather not think about that right now cause I don't want to freak out, but the one and only time I was actually taken off Klonopin cold turkey (REALLY fucked up cause I could have had seizures but I do wish I could have stayed off of it) I actually had no WD and I don't know how.

I wouldn't be dreaming of "scoring benzos" cause that sounds like for you they were enjoyable or got you high and for me they are just my medication and I've never bought them on the street.

But I talked to my psychiatrist earlier and I know that when the time comes he's going to taper me VERY slowly and replace it with probably Gabapentin or maybe Pregablin and those are also good for anxiety and I know he's done this before so I trust him.

 

[lost weekend]

Sorry. I'd rather not think about that right now cause I don't want to freak out, but the one and only time I was actually taken off Klonopin cold turkey (REALLY fucked up cause I could have had seizures but I do wish I could have stayed off of it) I actually had no WD and I don't know how.

I wouldn't be dreaming of "scoring benzos" cause that sounds like for you they were enjoyable or got you high and for me they are just my medication and I've never bought them on the street.

But I talked to my psychiatrist earlier and I know that when the time comes he's going to taper me VERY slowly and replace it with probably Gabapentin or maybe Pregablin and those are also good for anxiety and I know he's done this before so I trust him.

Yeh sorry didn't mean to panic you ,if you are doing your taper through your doctor etc then you won't have anywhere near the severity of wd I did.
Benzos have never got me high and I can't say I enjoy them ,but they do bring confidence and when you've taken something for a long time just to feel normal it seems to latch onto something in your subconscious .
Pregabin is excellent for anxiety although you might find you put on weight
Really don't have to much experience with gabapentin although it certainly wasn't as strong as pregablin
I wish you all the best ,you sound like you have everything in place to get to where you want