Is the Royal Family going to 'throw Andrew Mountbatten Windsor under the bus' ?

[Chaurus]

Also, AFAIK although of course prostitution is not legal, I think it becomes more of a serious criminal issue if the girl is not even 18.

Nope.

Prostitution is legal in the United Kingdom and many, many other nations.

 

[Vastness]

^ But not for <18 year olds - although I admit I wasn't really sure of the law so thought I'd look it up - from the Wikipedia page, "Prostitution in the United Kingdom" (emphases added):

Although the age of consent is 16 throughout the United Kingdom, it is illegal to buy sex from a person under 18 where the perpetrator does not reasonably believe they are 18 or over.[7] In England and Wales, it is an offence to pay for sex with a sex worker who has been "subjected to force", constituting a strict liability offence – wherein the client of a sex worker can be prosecuted for the offence, even in the absence of fault or criminal intent to force a sex worker to provide sexual services for them.

So, a fairly refreshingly progressive law where criminal liability rests solely on the "buyer" rather than the prostitute, in this specific instance. And seemingly some extra provisions which would mean that claiming ignorance of a given sex worker's trafficked status would not be a valid defense. In a fantasy world where Prince Andrew actually is going through the justice system I imagine the only avenue for defense would be lawyers trying to argue that he didn't directly "pay" for anything and/or that Virginia Giuffre wasn't actually a "sex worker" because some kooky legal mumbo-jumbo reasoning... oh, obviously he'd definitely try to argue he didn't "reasonably believe" she was under 18, although IIRC there's pretty credible evidence he was well aware of her age, so hard to imagine any of that would be particularly convincing given the specifically anti-trafficking provisions but who knows, I guess it's moot though since that's seemingly never gonna happen.

Some absolutely wild stats in that article too, I thought I was well versed on the absolute brutality of this late-capitalist world but apparently I'm still a little naive about some parts of it:

In March 2015 the University of Leeds, funded by the Wellcome Trust, published one of the largest ever UK surveys of prostitutes. It found that 71% of prostitutes had previously worked in health, social care, education, childcare or charities, and that 38% held an undergraduate degree.[27] A study published by Swansea University in March 2015 found that nearly 5% of UK students had been involved in sex work in some capacity, including prostitution. Most students went into sex work to cover living expenses (two-thirds) and to pay off debts (45%).

"Sex work in some capacity" is a little vague I guess and not all of it will be directly selling sex but still, 1 in 20 students!? No disrespect to sex workers but that is crazy high. Actually y'know I don't think I even need to include the caveat trying to be respectful to people who choose to go into sex work totally of their own volition since it does clarify that over half of those were driven into it by the cost of living... I guess the language used is kinda careful not to imply they were overtfly forced into it under threat of violence, but still, if that isn't fucking dystopian... just under the threat of hunger, homelessness or the looming specter of social shame from not having managed to be a good enough capitalist, I guess...

 

[yubacity]

They should all jump under it he is a nonce hope he goes abroad and US get a arrest warrant have him extradited . Reveal what him Clinton Trump and God knows who else is involved they all know epstein was a nonce he must have mentioned it or someone defiantly would have told then

 

[Perkins : Reborn]

But my seventeen year old girlfriend has never been happier. She's glad she's credited with agency, and we plan to live in domestic bliss.

 

[Bleaney]

Some David Starkey talks I was watching last night bought up a new angle. He was talking to Alex Laman, some journalist/historian/ author etc of whom I'd never heard or seen of before.

Anyway I'm familiar with Starkey and his tendency to have controversial and unique views on things, hence getting "cancelled" by MSM and now has to put out his thoughts on youtube.

But this Laman character came out with the most surprising / unbelievable angle I've heard so far, basically saying that Andrew is "intellectually limited" I think were his exact words, and that he didn't understand the full gravity of the situation he was in.

That's just got to be ridiculous surely. I've never heard such suggestions previously. I don't think any jury would buy that defence if it came to court, or it would certainly need evidence for me to buy it for starters.

Laman did not provide any.

Laman or Starkey then said "all of them are" I mean what snobby, deluded fools are these people, if they think they are on such a high intellectual plane or something,meaning they think Andrew, and the entire royal family apparently, might not have the intellect or ability to understand right and wrong. Jesus! No wonder Starkey was cancelled!

 

[LoginNotSecure]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten that.

It's kind of bizarre that you can legally shag a 17 (or even 16?) year old girl, but you can't look at any 'sexualized images' of them as that's illegal.

But in the Andrew/Epstein case there was also the factor that the girl had been traficked into prostitution. Pretty sure that's a crime to knowingly use such 'services' as well as being totally morally reprehensible.

If she'd have been some kind of high class escort, earning a fortune for herself, and acting of her own free will, and at least one year older, then he'd have just been "Randy Andy" imho. Nothing worse than that. But it's all the circumstances put together that make it so bad.

That's just my opinion though.

Also, AFAIK although of course prostitution is not legal, I think it becomes more of a serious criminal issue if the girl is not even 18.

Age of consent in Nigeria is 11..

 

[Perkins : Reborn]

Age of consent in Nigeria is 11..

It was thirteen over here until 1885. The reason it changed? Widespread child prostitution.

 

[4DQSAR]

I used to listen to Radio 4 a lot. I mean my radio was either on or off. I made the conscious choice of using the LW broadcast as it doesn't close down at 1AM, it just broadcasts the BBC World Service so I could just leave it on 24/7 - for company and because I enjoy some of the more unusual stuff.

But I have to admit that I turned down the volume whenever The Moral Maze was being broadcast and David Starkey was on the panel. I just found his arrogance was at odds with the whole point of the programme. Unveiled slurs pretending to be a bluff and direct manner.

Beware of anyone whose basic argument is the assertion that they know better and by definition they are always right.

 

[Bleaney]

David Starkey was on the panel. I just found his arrogance was at odds with the whole point of the programme. Unveiled slurs pretending to be a bluff and direct manner.

Beware of anyone whose basic argument is the assertion that they know better and by definition they are always right.

You're dead right that he's very arrogant.

In the clip I posted above he was boasting that he was guest of honour along with Fergie at some event or other, and saying "everyone was there..............everyone.............one of the Rothschilds.............everyone........er a top violinist" He couldn't name anyone else that was at that oh so exclusive high society event

But despite his arrogance and apparent conceitedness I do like to hear a range of opinions on any issues, and at least the guy certainly does have a mind and opinions of his own. He didn't really have anything worthwhile or interesting to contribute to this topic however.

Other than to say he thinks the British public and media are awful when they mob up against someone in a type of moral crusade. And they both kind of felt a bit sorry for "poor intellectually limited Andrew" in that context.

Surely you'd have to be severely intellectually sub-normal for that to be any kind of defence in UK law for what Andrew did. I don't believe for one second that that's the case for Andrew. No one with a severely limited IQ is going to be doing dodgy trade deals for himself and misusing his royal titles to help secure said deals, which is also something he's been accused of doing. And is likely to face charges for that if the biographer Lownie is to be believed.

The video is not worth watching. The only useful thing they did confirm is that Lownie is indeed a character assassination type of biographer, as I already very much suspected.

But then again Starkey and Co seemed to be biased in favour of Andrew, even if Lownie is biased against Andrew. So I guess even that doesnt really say very much.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Age of consent in Nigeria is 11..

Says it all...

And this is why it is entirely justified to complain about 'cultural differences' when importing people from these countries.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I used to listen to Radio 4 a lot.

But I have to admit that I turned down the volume whenever The Moral Maze was being broadcast and David Starkey was on the panel. I just found his arrogance was at odds with the whole point of the programme.

I only listen to Radio 4 & BBC World Service after 1am when Radio 4 goes off air.
100% with you on The Moral Maze too.

In Our Time is amazing too may I add.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

Says it all...

And this is why it is entirely justified to complain about 'cultural differences' when importing people from these countries.

I wonder what Muslims who live in Saudi Arabia must think of all the "Western" people who go over there & drink booze, have sex & eat Pigs?

 

[4DQSAR]

I wonder what Muslims who live in Saudi Arabia must think of all the "Western" people who go over there & drink booze, have sex & eat Pigs?

I often wonder if people are aware that Saudia Arabia is a proponent of Wahhabism, not the majority Sunni sect of Islam. They provide a lot of funding for what are sometimes referred to as 'red mosques'.

Adam Curtis produced an interesting film called 'Bitter Lake' about a meeting in the 1945 in which the house of Saud agreed to largely be supportive of the economic west in exchange for their retaining the right to practice and teach their own faith.

I've only met a couple of Saudi citizens and they were from wealthy families so were well travelled. So they understand that a minority can propagate a stereotype. The thing that actually surprised them more than anything was the practice of tattoos being a choice. They laughed by noting (in an ironic manner) that 'We mark our criminals so that everyone knows who the criminals are. Your criminals mark themselves!'. Again, they understood it to be a stereotype but body modification out of choice just seemed so bizarre to them.

I have a few Muslim friends and they certainly seem to have faith but I don't think any of them would ever go to a mosque. They observe fasts and dietry restrictions (mostly) but even then, I know several who point out that an imam blessing factory farmed animals before slaughter is NOT Halal. Not compatible with other teachings that forbid cruelty to animals.

 

[Perkins : Reborn]

My father worked in Saudi in the seventies. He said there were constantly pallets of whisky and brandy being delivered for the royals and the upper classes.

 

[4DQSAR]

My father worked in Saudi in the seventies. He said there were constantly pallets of whisky and brandy being delivered for the royals and the upper classes.

Yep - a not-at-all-close relative was expelled from Saudi Arabia for organizing the large-scale importation of alcohol. I never liked them and even their own kids have no time for them.

But it does remind me of a bit of advice a friend was given by his father - 'remember whose salt you are eating'. I have no idea where the phrase originated but my friend took it to mean that if you live in a society, you abide by the rules of that society.

I am aware that Iran has a huge problem with illegally imported alcohol often fake and dangerous. But because they won't admit the scale of the problem, if a toxic consignment is intercepted, warnings are not issued i.e. HR is not even considered.

 

[Bleaney]

^ But not for <18 year olds - although I admit I wasn't really sure of the law so thought I'd look it up - from the Wikipedia page, "Prostitution in the United Kingdom" (emphases added):


So, a fairly refreshingly progressive law where criminal liability rests solely on the "buyer" rather than the prostitute, in this specific instance. And seemingly some extra provisions which would mean that claiming ignorance of a given sex worker's trafficked status would not be a valid defense. In a fantasy world where Prince Andrew actually is going through the justice system I imagine the only avenue for defense would be lawyers trying to argue that he didn't directly "pay" for anything and/or that Virginia Giuffre wasn't actually a "sex worker" because some kooky legal mumbo-jumbo reasoning... oh, obviously he'd definitely try to argue he didn't "reasonably believe" she was under 18, although IIRC there's pretty credible evidence he was well aware of her age, so hard to imagine any of that would be particularly convincing given the specifically anti-trafficking provisions but who knows, I guess it's moot though since that's seemingly never gonna happen.

Some absolutely wild stats in that article too, I thought I was well versed on the absolute brutality of this late-capitalist world but apparently I'm still a little naive about some parts of it:


"Sex work in some capacity" is a little vague I guess and not all of it will be directly selling sex but still, 1 in 20 students!? No disrespect to sex workers but that is crazy high. Actually y'know I don't think I even need to include the caveat trying to be respectful to people who choose to go into sex work totally of their own volition since it does clarify that over half of those were driven into it by the cost of living... I guess the language used is kinda careful not to imply they were overtfly forced into it under threat of violence, but still, if that isn't fucking dystopian... just under the threat of hunger, homelessness or the looming specter of social shame from not having managed to be a good enough capitalist, I guess...

Thanks for all the info. That is some good research to be sure!

I would imagine that the majority of the "Sex work in some capacity" would be at lap dancing / pole dancing type venues. Also adult modelling. Cam work etc. There's probably a lot doing those types of sex work. It's hard to guestimate percentages based on my own limited experiences of being dragged along to lap dancing venues by my mate a couple of times. I genuinely find such places deeply embarrassing and they make me very uncomfortable, but I'd guess that practically all of the young ladies there were definitely university students or uni student age.

There used to be a 'Little Black Book' online guide to, ahem, "gentlemen's massage parlours" in the region, and I admit to browsing that 'book' a few times. I guess it was kind of 50/50 regarding the age range, with roughly 50% being over 30s females, and the other 50% being uni student age young women. There used to be a lot of such venues in this city, each with its own website with photos of the girls etc, linked from the LBB. but I don't know if 80% or so of them have closed down, because the LBB no longer seems to work properly/hasnt been updated in years and is full of dead links. And most of the former massage parlours no longer have websites. I don't know if that means they have closed down, or just gone more secretive. (Or they might just have changed their names, I don't know what has happened tbh.)

tl;dr I think a lot more more students work in the lap dancing / pole dancing clubs than in actual prostitution. But there's probably much more in modelling or cam-work. But that estimate is only based on my own very limited experience. Back from when it was possible to sometimes see photos of the girls or women who worked in the parlours, on their websites, and you'd have their ages listed too. Although Most of the ages stated were probably actual age minus 10 years, for the older ladies.. Judging by the photos at least!

I JUST EDITED: the whole post with a couple more new thoughts, and: Regarding your last point, some of those that are in various niches of the 'industry' of their own free will, can earn extremely good money, as escorts, or in the lap dancing clubs. The same almost certainly goes for adult models or cam girls too. Although I have heard that a lot of porn actresses can get mentally scarred by being in that particular part of the industry. But much less so for solo posing for photos and videos in provocative poses and outfits etc, AFAIK. Then there's the whole ethical porn niche, which I would imagine prioritises the mental well-being of the ladies involved.

If these women are comfortable with what they are doing, they are probably a lot more successful at the capitalist game than many, and could be making a lot of money if they had the good fortune to be born with highly desirable looks and bodies, and have chosen to very directly cash in on that, while they still can.

If a feminist saw this post they'd probably wipe the floor with me, but it's just as I see things, from a male perspective.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I often wonder if people are aware that Saudia Arabia is a proponent of Wahhabism, not the majority Sunni sect of Islam. They provide a lot of funding for what are sometimes referred to as 'red mosques'.

Who doesn't know this is what I wonder.

 

[4DQSAR]

Who doesn't know this is what I wonder.

I don't know, but most people don't seem to recognize the term Wahhabism or if they do, they aren't clear what it means.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

I don't know, but most people don't seem to recognize the term Wahhabism or if they have, aren't certain what it means.

I always raise the issue with the people who pass out copies of The Qu'ran on the street, I always ask them if it's such a religion of peace why would a Sufi be killed for heresy by a Wahhabi.

Anyone who watched what ISIS / ISIL / Daesh did should be aware of The Saudi Wahhabi school of Islam (imho)

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

If these women are comfortable with what they are doing, they are probably a lot more successful at the capitalist game than many, and could be making a lot of money if they had the good fortune to be born with highly desirable looks and bodies, and have chosen to very directly cash in on that, while they still can.

If a feminist saw this post they'd probably wipe the floor with me, but it's just as I see things, from a male perspective.

#truth